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| chaos armybook | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 8 2011, 05:05 PM (931 Views) | |
| Kormak | Nov 10 2011, 09:14 AM Post #16 |
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High Executioner of Khorne
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Most things that run into a horde of marauders are going to struggle, chaos warriors included, the truth of the matter is marauders with GW and MoK are unbalanced, then again its hardly as if a trebs are not the perfect counter to this unit or anything! Of course 18 chaos warriors will beat a unit of brets, then again for the points you should get a unit of 14 knights of the realm with full command, I am yet to see anyone use a unit like that, I think the most I have seen is 8 + a character. Should a unit that size really beat a unit of chaos warriors? Isn't combo charge the whole point in brets? that is why they have such a small frontage, so they can get two units in! thats how you play them! |
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| rothgar13 | Nov 10 2011, 10:27 AM Post #17 |
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Clanlord
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Yeah, but even then Brets can lose to Hordes. They're in a bit of a pickle against several armies. Trebs aren't terribly effective against Marauders, actually. 25mm infantry gets 9 guys in there, tops. Sure, they get wounded on 2's, but it's still not all that scary. |
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| DarkChilde | Nov 10 2011, 10:49 AM Post #18 |
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The Chosen
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Rothgar, I would like to state as I have in other post that I also think WOC need a new book. I think Ogre characters with their new book has come close to if not supplanted WOC in terms of sheer brutality in hand to hand combat coupled with hard hitting units like Mournfang cavalry and move and shoot canon artillery. Ogres also have some other advantages in that they have better movement than WOC, they have more compact wounds per model. An “elite” warrior with one wound still only has to be wounded once to lose his effectiveness via death, where as you can do two wounds on ogre and he is still coming at you with impact hits (assuming he got the charge off which he should be able to do with better movement), multiple attacks, and stomps. They also get the advantage of equal ranks for smaller frontage means enemies have to roll higher to complete a charge and when maximizing bases less enemy models may get to attack you. Also, their special characters and by special I am not referring to named characters but rather their tyrants, slaughter masters, etc are ridiculous to the point where they can beat almost any armies special characters in hand to hand combat, which really sucks for WOC because our characters have to accept a challenge. This is a huge disadvantage that multiple armies have in my experience used against us. In fact, in my experience the special characters of the Skaven (they have some stupid warlord or some crap that attacks at strength 10 and hit does multiple wounds), Ogre characters, and Vampire Count characters are from what I seen just as tough as WOC characters and not too far off in price as ours, yet we are supposed to the toughest of the tough. In a new chaos books I some general things that I hope come about -Shooting and artillery are highly prevalent in the game and becoming more so via armies getting move and shoot canons, etc and chaos needs to be beefed up more to withstand this, or have artillery of our own and I don’t mean the over priced Hellcannon. At 205 points with a 4+ armor save this monstrosity has been the one of the biggest point giveaways to my enemies. Dwarves especially love Hellcannons. They’ll take it down by focused fire in the first round. -We are an army where speed is at a premium we need something to compensate for this. -Our unnamed lords and heroes should be better. The Eye of the Gods rule should be a boon for us not a penalty -In the new books other armies are getting big monster. Some are more expensive than our monsters but are far more effective. Right now, no monster in the base army book is really worth taking in my opinion. Our monster point cost should be adjusted and we need some new monsters added also. The Greatspawn from Storm of Magic is decent and reasonably costed. That would be a good start. -The marks can be revamped POSSIBLY. I put this because people have mentioned it but honestly I think the marks are fairly solid the way they work. Even the mark of Slaanesh, I have put that on a unit of Fast Cav just to give dwarves an extra target without me worrying about then panicking while I began the long march across the field towards his gunline. -In my opinion Chaos Warriors are overpriced. I came into Warhammer in 8th edition so I am ignorant of previous editions. I love the game, but one thing that irks me is the imbalance in army power level that exists in this game. I know everything can’t be perfectly balanced, because there is just so much stuff and honestly there is already perfectly balanced wargames out their (checkers, chess, go, etc), but when I see certain books like for example the Skaven I have to wonder what the author was thinking when they wrote the rules for some of this stuff. I mean, with Skaven here you have an army that has canons for under a hundred points that shoot and then explode in template pattern at strength 10. You have guys that can skitter leap across the field and shoot canons at you for under 80 points. You have a monster the HPA that can get back up after you spend X amount of rounds killing it. You have spell that unlike Infernal Gateway which is devastating on an 11 or 12 is devastating almost every time it is cast. You have a unit an army that can shoot into close combat, etcetera etcetera. I can honestly say I have absolutely no fun when I face a skaven player whether for a casual game or for competition. I avoid them like the plague. There is no way this army is even remotely balanced, and as far as dwarves getting a new book in the local tourneys here dwarves are doing very well. They are setting up gunlines and taking people out with no problem so if they are doing that good with an old book the only reason they should need a new book at all is to raise the cost of their artillery and also to have the organ gun roll to hit like every other piece of artillery. May hope for us having a new book is that the author of our book gets a hold of some of the same uncut Peruvian stuff the writer of the Skaven book was on and we can have an army at the same power level they are. Darkchilde Edited by DarkChilde, Nov 10 2011, 10:53 AM.
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| AnomalyOfAwesome | Nov 10 2011, 10:57 AM Post #19 |
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The Chosen
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Don't hope for a book as strong as Skaven. One, I doubt that will happen, and two, can you imagine how awful that would be? I for one do not want to be playing the army everyone is screaming broken at, and avoiding play just on sight. No, I want a book like Ogre Kingdoms. What they did with that army was fantastic, and it shows that they are finally starting to care about balance. Among the new books, they are all pretty much balanced against each other. When they actually get EVERYTHING updated, the game is going to be even more wonderful than it already is! |
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| DarkChilde | Nov 10 2011, 11:12 AM Post #20 |
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The Chosen
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I don't know after facing Teclis lists, Dual hydra Dark Elf lists, the new ogres with pimped out unbeatable characters, mournfang that can eat through chaos knights, and move and shoot canons, dwarven gunlines, and Skaven (the entirety of the army) I wouldn't mind being on top for a little while:) Darkchilde |
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| rothgar13 | Nov 10 2011, 11:53 AM Post #21 |
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Clanlord
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A lot of complaints for what is generally considered to be a high-tier army. Chaos Warriors? Overpriced? You gotta be kidding me. It's a Core choice that kicks Specials in the teeth, pre-support. And we can give it support, because we have access to the best Lore in the game (Shadows). We are compensated handsomely for our lack of speed by amazing stats for a good price, though Marauders are arguably more point-efficient than Warriors. Dwarfs like the Hellcannon? You did remember the Monster and Handler rules, right? You get up to 3 distinct 5+ shots at getting a Chaos Dwarf blown up instead of your Cannon, and even then they have to roll 5+ on a Grudge Thrower/Cannon, and an Organ Gun can't do much to it. It's quite durable, and I'd rather have it shot to bits than my Chaos Warriors. It's a good distraction, a very solid monster in combat, and a S5 Stone Thrower template can actually take a big bite out of 20mm infantry. If you feel you're wasting your points on it, you're using it wrong. Flat out. You're worried about the Skaven Fellblade? Seriously? The item that consumes their whole magic allowance, which lets Joe the Exalted Hero hack him to bits with nothing but a Halberd and a Potion of Speed (or just a Halberd if you're willing to lose the Exalted Hero as well, and I would be)? Come on, man. As for the HPA, bring fire. It costs you 10 points on a block of Warriors. Seriously, dude. 10 points. Ogres are a tough matchup for WoC, but they're beatable. You have to learn the matchups (Marauders get thumped by Mournfangs, so deploy them on the other side, for instance). Ogres are also paying a price for all their fun stuff, so their model count is even lower than our own - use it to your advantage. Nurgle Warriors also have a ball against Ogres, because most of their units only can hit them on a 5+. A Horde of Ironguts is the toughest thing for us to deal with, but drawing them out with chaff and then combo-charging (or even ponying up a Deathstar of your own, preferably composed of Divine Greatness Chosen) can help. I'm also rather confused by your cries of "unkillable" Ogres - they're tough for sure (yay 4-5 Wounds!), but they have access to the basic protective gear everyone else gets. Nothing all that special. Skaven are a bit over the top, I agree. But WoC has tools to deal with even a properly built Skaven list, and you just have to find them. Study the matchups, read up on how to use the army, and then judge. A lot of your opinions sound rather reactionary, and lacking truly deep, analytical thought behind them. Edited by rothgar13, Nov 10 2011, 12:06 PM.
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| TheOneHawk | Nov 10 2011, 02:02 PM Post #22 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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Skaven are overpowered right now, yes. They were made in 7th, right before 8th, and the designer was probably trying to make them competitive in 8th without knowing exactly how 8th would work. Every single powerful thing in 8th, Skaven can do best or nearly best. Everyone knows this, and hopefully it will be fixed sooner rather than later, but I haven't heard any Skaven book rumours. Fellblade, however, is not overpowered. It costs 100 points, so the lord who carries it has no defensive gear at all, and it hurts said lord until he gets into combat. Just don't let it get close to your important characters and you're fine. Also, WLC are ridiculously powerful, yes. When they work perfectly. This is not very common. Anyways, Rothgar said it all better than I can. |
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| LORD VOKUL'NAX | Nov 10 2011, 03:43 PM Post #23 |
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Corrupted Slann
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Well said rothgar13. I was starting to think that I was the only one satisfied with our current book. I think we have a lot of great tools in our book. I personally don't think we're really in need of a new book like many other armies out there (I'm feeling quite sorry for my fiance's poor Wood Elves). |
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| grimni22 | Nov 10 2011, 07:20 PM Post #24 |
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The Chosen
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wood elves aren't that bad, dryads rock! ;) and I hear everyone complaining but WoC is still considered one of the higher-tier armies. I'm pretty happy with the book as it is, and would gladly see others updated (like brettonia) |
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| conjoy | Nov 10 2011, 07:50 PM Post #25 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Yep, think rothgar said it well. I actually think Ogres are a good match-up for us. Although our dummy drops are more expensive by 9 points, they are also more durable with rerolling a higher Ldr for panic more 3 more wounds and crucially are Core - meaning we can field more than three units of them. We also get Marauder Horse which can act as dummy drops but have all sorts of other yummy uses that way outstrip Sabertusks. The net result is that we should be picking the match-ups, which basically comes down to the Thundertusk (and the Ironguts that are likely supporting it) take Great Wep Marauders to the face and our Warriors/Chosen line-up nicely and easily against his Mournfang. Pretty much anything else is a gimme at that point as those are Ogres main iwin buttons. Overall we have a strong/very strong book. Even the choices that are not the best would still be considered powerful in almost any other army. And even though we don’t have much of a shooting phase, BS shooting is by and large nerfed to hell this edition, so all thats really left is Warmachines (do the maths on Leadbelchers for instance and they really do not stack-up that well). And we have perhaps the best Warmachine in the game, point for point. Which is supplemented by one of the best magic phases in the game. As I see it, we’re a bit like Empire – we are the second bets at a lot of things. Dwarfs/Empire/Skaven have better Warmachines. LM/HElfs have better magic (though this is a little debatable with the Puppet and Third Eye). OK/Vamps have better Cavalry. HElfs/DElfs do MSU better. So we are second best in most areas, but have arguably the two best core in the game – marauders on a point for point basis, and Warriros for their eliteness. At that point its about getting your mix and match-ups right. |
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| Kormak | Nov 10 2011, 08:29 PM Post #26 |
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High Executioner of Khorne
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Trebs are one of the best rocklobbers in the game??? they are strength 10(5) and they are only 90pts! you can afford two of them for the price of a hellcannon, big horde units are hard to miss even with scatter, how many hits do you need in a game to make a unit of marauders manageable? 2? thats enough to take a rank and half off before combat! The knock on effect is its be enough to break the steadfast. Lets also not forget being 3 wide but still having a large amount if attacks really plays to their advantage, at most they can have 5 models attacks, the maths say the marauders will only kill 3 guys (rounding up) and assuming they haven't lost any of the 3rd ranks supporting attacks. A single unit of knights with 4 ranks after a couple of Trebs have hit the unit should easily be able to break a marauder horde. I wouldn't send a unit of Khorne warriors into a unit of 50 marauders before knocking a couple of ranks off, I don't think many people would send a unit into a unit of 50 marauders without knocking some ranks off ;) So yeah, the Treb is effective against a T3 target if it kills enough models to allow for the units steadfast to be broken.
It was? so shooting in two ranks (giving your twice as many shots in a smaller space) and TLOS nerfed BS shooting? not sure how you figure that one out, pretty sure it got better. Must be why I see tournament packs limiting the amount of BS shooting to 90 shots then.
I have had arguments with rothgar on many things on another forum, when someone tried to tell me beastmen core is better than dwarf core and the constantly changes the parameters of the discussion I don't have very much respect for their opinion (I believe it was essentional Gor + a BSB + beast banner is marginally better than a unit of 40 dwarfs with great weapons and still worse than longbeards, then I believed it was 6 shamans in a unit with a herdstone with lord of shadow to beat the long beards lol). For the top tier you have 3 armies, DE, Skaven and Lizardmen, WoC are not in the same league because they simply do not have the same power in the magic phase. DE also have amazing BS shooting (which is apparently nerfed), lizards have skinks (again apparently nerfed) and chaos have flamers (erm yeah). Alot of people dislike WoC because the marks are badly thought out and so few options are actually viable, you have chaos warriors, marauders with MoK and GW which are usually better than chaos warriors because how "balanced" they are, a hellcannon, hounds, sorcrerers, Tzeentch Chosen, warhsrines (if you use chosen) and a BSB. Chaos warriors have a few units that are ok like chaos knights (still powerful but nerfed because of 8th and very expensive to use in large units), marauder horsemen (useful but needed because of cheap hounds), Trolls (mutant regen is good but unreliable) and dragon ogres (not amazing but ok). Thats really about it, most of the competitive builds are similar, few big blocks of warriors or marauders, some chosen, couple of hellcannons and a shrine with some characters. The army itself has no flavor at all, it doesn't really reflect the fluff and has killed many of the mono god builds only leaving nurgle and Tzeentch as the viable mono god build. This is very different to the previous book, so while certain themes are not as competitive you could build them and have fun. WoC is in serious need of a makeover just so people have a better selection of units to choose from, apparently you guys seem happy enough with dull boring army using the same list as everyone else on the bored. Edited by Kormak, Nov 10 2011, 08:53 PM.
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| DarkChilde | Nov 10 2011, 09:07 PM Post #27 |
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The Chosen
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Rothgar (and others): Good day. You know, for all the people saying I'm being "reactionary" and that our army book is still good then there must be a ton of crap players playing WOC as if you look at Ard Boyz and GT results I pretty much see the same two armies winnning; Skaven and Dark Elves with Skaven being in the top. Likewise even with all the "broken" builds we have Chosen Star, etc we aren't doing well. The thing with a Chosen star for example is since our army is slow as crap and most other armies aren't as speed challenged all they do is avoid the damn star. Against a player that has no clue what he is doing, a chosen star is very effective but against anyone who is moderately skilled they should be able to avoid it and lead the bull by the nose in a manner of speaking. As far as "unkillable" ogre characters if you go to the Ogre Stronghold and well as the other forums for armies like Brets, etc they have many post on how you can use the Eye of Gods rule to yoru advantage to beat chaos. Even GW has stated ogre characters are some of the strongest in the game. Where I play what I see WOC players doing for example with the Chosen Star is using FC plus having a level 2 wizard, the General (level 4) wizard and BSB in teh same unit with the BSB in the second rank tucked away safely. They will put a crown or something ont the BSB just in they case they get into combat before they have DG they will still be stubborn and the trick is when facing opponents like OK to have the unit champion go first in the challenge, then the level 2 wizard, and then maybe then general or BSB point being point being to make sure you have some characters for the Butcher, Slaughermaster, Tyrant, or whatever to go through before he has to face your BSB or General and honestly I would have him face the General first, because if you lose your BSB and fail a leadership test more than likely he will give you points for the whole unit. Now, it is true the Slaughermaster or whatever might get King is Dead points for killing your general (I have rarely seen a level 4 chaos sorceror get into hand to hand with an OK Butcher or SM and live), but that is still cheaper than giving him your whole unit. Also, you guys keep talking about match-ups but a lot time in a league or tournament you dont' have a choice of who you are playing against and likewise deployment is also very random. If you roll the Battle for the Pass where you have to deploy your whole army or Dawn Attack, etc you can just set there and say "Okay, he has mournfang over on the left so I will place marauders on the right." Doesn't happen. ARe there older books than ours like wood elves and Brets yes. I would hate to think however that Chaos has to be the last book done and get overshadowed by WE and everyother army before somebody says okay we need an army book now. Chaos is not faring well in tourneys. you can argue they are MAYBE placing highly (which isn't winning). I am looking at one list (possibly older list but looks like 2010) for Ard boyz (I live in the States) What I see is the Eastern region Skaven and Dark Elves won. In midwest a Daemon player won with Dark Elf and Skaven number two and three and in the West coast it looks about the same except for a Dwarf player who was running a gunline with an anvil (I don't know what an anvil is but I have heard dwarf players talk about it and how it can better shut down a magic phase). We need a new book. Darkchilde Edited by DarkChilde, Nov 10 2011, 09:41 PM.
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| AnomalyOfAwesome | Nov 10 2011, 10:22 PM Post #28 |
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The Chosen
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We don't NEED a new book anymore than a lot of other armies do. It would be nice, sure. But I have a blast with our book as it is. Of course, I'm not talking competitively. I hate the tournament scene, because it brings the worst out in people. That's the only place you will regularly see people bring lists that the cheese smells from outside the building. Lists that most people would throw a book at another person for. The competitive nature of tournaments really doesn't do a lot of good for this hobby. Playing the game for the sport of it, just to have fun with friends, is where the true value is found, and that's why I think other books should be leagues ahead of us. Wood Elves, Bretonnia, to a lesser extent Beastmen and Vampires, all need something to fix how 8th edition has changed their gameplan. THEN, they can come back around and tone down some of the other stuff to be friendlier. I really think that is the way they should go. |
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| DarkChilde | Nov 10 2011, 11:05 PM Post #29 |
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The Chosen
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Friendly games are fine but competitive play is a part of the game and our army needs to be beeefed up for it. I don't think we should have to wait to get overpowered by other armies before we get a book. As it stands now the new ogres are already challenging us for sheer brutality I close combat. |
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| TheOneHawk | Nov 11 2011, 01:55 AM Post #30 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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Dude, the fact that Skaven and DE are winning every tourny doesn't mean WoC should be beefed up to their level. It means they need new armybooks because they're broken. We could use a new armybook. It would be nice. But we're behind a lot of other more deserving armies right now. Stop looking at it as a WoC player, and look at it as a warhammer player. Our army is no more important than the others. |
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