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chaos armybook
Topic Started: Nov 8 2011, 05:05 PM (929 Views)
AnomalyOfAwesome
The Chosen
Ok, so you like armies that are beating you. I guess that's fair...
To that end, we still don't deserve a new book. Why would rather see us put to the level of power that Skaven are at rather than see them brought down to the level of power the new books are at, which is some of the best balanced material they have released in a long time. Tomb Kings, Ogres, and Greenskins have amazing new stuff, and the three books put side by side are very equal to each other. SO how is it better to have us taken above the line rather than having the army you hate most brought down to the line? We have a very balanced army. Just you see us losing, and therefore say not. It's not a solid argument at all. Dwarves, Wood Elves, Brettonia, Skaven, and Dark Elves should all come before us. The first three to bring them more in line with 8th edition mechanics, the 2nd two to bring down their power level to the rest of the armies (not necessarily in this order, mind you :-p ). After that, I think we should be good to go.
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AnomalyOfAwesome
The Chosen
Also, the fact that you are running the Chosen star with Tzeentch is kinda contradictory to your arguments. The very things you are screaming about is the same cheese the Chosenstar turns into when it gets that 3+ ward. The interwebz are aflamed with people that hate that as much as you hate the warp lightning cannons. Should they get a book first because of that? If not, then you are arguing against the very point you are trying to make. We can beat the armies you are having problems with. You just have to pick your fights carefully, and try to plan for what you think is coming. Two guys I play with have Dwarves and Dark Elves. Dark Elf guy always has two casters, and frequently brings two hydras. Have not lost to him yet. The Dwarf guy, I will admit, does not play the gunline style, so I do fairly well against him, but I have to play smart and pick my targets wisely, because he shuts my magic phase down 4/6 turns, usually. Our army is not the one trick pony that some others are (even with the chosen star, because it is easy to avoid). You have to use some tactics to grab up wins with WoC against more than half the armies.
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DarkChilde
The Chosen
AnomalyOfAwesome
Nov 11 2011, 12:38 PM
Ok, so you like armies that are beating you. I guess that's fair...
To that end, we still don't deserve a new book. Why would rather see us put to the level of power that Skaven are at rather than see them brought down to the level of power the new books are at, which is some of the best balanced material they have released in a long time. Tomb Kings, Ogres, and Greenskins have amazing new stuff, and the three books put side by side are very equal to each other. SO how is it better to have us taken above the line rather than having the army you hate most brought down to the line? We have a very balanced army. Just you see us losing, and therefore say not. It's not a solid argument at all. Dwarves, Wood Elves, Brettonia, Skaven, and Dark Elves should all come before us. The first three to bring them more in line with 8th edition mechanics, the 2nd two to bring down their power level to the rest of the armies (not necessarily in this order, mind you :-p ). After that, I think we should be good to go.
I question, how balanced Ogre Kingdoms are If we have to wait for six armies to come before us then basicalliy that puts us at the last of the line for a new book and means we actually lose in power and have to play against a bunch of souped up books. I can't agree with that. Skaven need to be brought down in power I agree. Wood elves need a boost. Bret are solid it's just with steadfast and stuff of that nature it isn't the army so much as the rules of the current edition. The same holds true for wood elves. And, like I said why should we wait for dwarves when they have an old book but are still placing high and winning in GTs curently more so than Chaos. Yes, they don't have a magic phase (although they do have stuff they can do in a magic phase). So, what we don't have a shooting phase really.

I might concur that Skaven need a new book next just to be brought down in power to match the other books, but after that I would push for a WOC update. We are hurting right now in tournament results, and while I have a fondness for Chaos in my heart even in a friendly game I don't want to play against armies that have all these neat new books and tough units (mournfang, iron blasters, etc) while I am underpowered.

I know, wood elve players have had to suffer through it. I like the fluff of the Wood Elf army. Even thought about purchasing some, but you know what...I haven't because I don't want to play a crap army. Period, and chaos should get to be the last in line like WE before we get a book.

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DarkChilde
The Chosen
AnomalyOfAwesome
Nov 11 2011, 12:44 PM
Also, the fact that you are running the Chosen star with Tzeentch is kinda contradictory to your arguments. The very things you are screaming about is the same cheese the Chosenstar turns into when it gets that 3+ ward. The interwebz are aflamed with people that hate that as much as you hate the warp lightning cannons. Should they get a book first because of that? If not, then you are arguing against the very point you are trying to make. We can beat the armies you are having problems with. You just have to pick your fights carefully, and try to plan for what you think is coming. Two guys I play with have Dwarves and Dark Elves. Dark Elf guy always has two casters, and frequently brings two hydras. Have not lost to him yet. The Dwarf guy, I will admit, does not play the gunline style, so I do fairly well against him, but I have to play smart and pick my targets wisely, because he shuts my magic phase down 4/6 turns, usually. Our army is not the one trick pony that some others are (even with the chosen star, because it is easy to avoid). You have to use some tactics to grab up wins with WoC against more than half the armies.
You mistake my arguments. I don't have a problem with so called "cheese" per se, I have a problem with cheese where you have no shot at beating it i.e skaven. Right now in the game when facing armies that can have multihyrdas, gunlines, warmachines, galore, move and shoot canons, souped up characters that can beat ours in combat and we HAVE to accept a challente out there etc and were sitting here with one overpriced piece of artillery and slow as hell warriors with honestly kind of low leadership I don't consider a 3+ ward save that much of cheese as I do survival.

That 3+ ward is worth nothing against Dreadful 13th I had a block of chosen get wiped out no armor or ward save, nothing. Likewise there is stuff out there that doesn't allwo armor saves so our armor is good but there are ways around plus Brets get a 2+ armor save base. The problem is not that other armies have one trick win buttons the problem is our armie does not.

And, yes I know we have a big bad spell tell Infernal Gateway and the Skaven have to have 25 to cast their spell and we have to get only a 15, but then again ours only works on an 11-12, a very small percentage of the time while the dreadful works alway and usually with IF. Is it worth it to blow up your caster to take it absolutely. If they made IG where the casting was 25 but it removed a unit from play automatically I would take my wizard and put him in a cheap bunker of maruaders and cast it on the enemies main unit every time, even it it meant me blowing myself up, because my general will more than earned his points back by taking out say an Ogre Kingdom Deathstar.

Edited by DarkChilde, Nov 11 2011, 01:02 PM.
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rothgar13
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Clanlord
That would just be plain broken, dude. The Dreaded 13th is over the top, and it doesn't do what your proposed spell does.

You wanna know something funny? People on the Ogre Stronghold right now are scratching their heads, because WoC armies give them all sorts of issues. Their speed is a pain in the neck, but they can be beat. The disparity between marks is a bit of an issue, as is the relative uselessness of stuff like Forsaken and Chaos Ogres. Everything else is fine or better. Your comments on the Hellcannon also lead me to think you're using it as artillery. This shouldn't always be the case - it's a very capable monster choice in CC, you should also employ it to mix it up in combat.

As an aside, I like a BSB with the Banner of Rage as a way to keep Tzeentch on my Chosen-star, and he'll get Divine Greatness as well if you pick it up via Warshrine once the game has already begun. Something to consider.
Edited by rothgar13, Nov 11 2011, 01:08 PM.
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LORD VOKUL'NAX
Member Avatar
Corrupted Slann
DarkChilde
Nov 11 2011, 12:57 PM
The problem is not that other armies have one trick win buttons the problem is our armie does not.

I don't think it would be beneficial for warhammer if each army had a "win trick win button". I definitely feel that the other uber powerful books need to be brought down to the level of the recently released books (Orcs, Tomb Kings, Ogres) as others have mentioned. I think it's better for the game if Games Workshop fixes the errors they made on these super strong armies rather than replicating the same error across all the armies.

I understand you fighting for the WoC cause because that is the army that you have/play, but I think you should step back and look at this situation from the game as a whole.

Imagine how you would feel if you were the one playing Wood Elves or Bretonnia (two armies that you yourself said are weaker than WoC) and you saw WoC get a new book before you. I don't think that's very fair at all, which is why I believe that most people are arguing that other armies are more "deserving" or "in need" of an army book than we are. It doesn't mean that people on here don't want a new book.

That said, all this is a mute point anyways, because Games Workshop DOES NOT release new army books based on...
-which armies are necessarily most in need of them
-how armies are performing at the tournament scene
-which armies we think they should release

Games Workshop at the end of the day is a business, and as such its sole purpose is to maximize profits. As a result, GW will release their armies books based on what they FEEL will bring them the greatest return. Whether or not their choices are always correct is definitely debatable, however I can say for certain that this is the mind set which they use to make their decisions.... its all business and in business its all about the money.

In the end, you're entitled to your opinion, as is everyone else. Perhaps this is one of those situations where people have to agree to disagree. B)
Edited by LORD VOKUL'NAX, Nov 11 2011, 02:51 PM.
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TheOneHawk
Warrior of the Chamber
Just a tip. If you're playing Skaven, don't take a chosenstar. I personally don't take them anyways, but seriously. A chosenstar is going to take up a HELL of a lot of points, and as you said, 13th decimates it. Maybe you're a troll, maybe you're not, but I can honestly say if you're having this much trouble, you're not doing it right. We're not winning -every- tournament, but we win some, even with some armies being ridiculous at the moment. Don't blame the list for your loss, because if you do that, you'll never learn to win. Woodelves won a tourny pretty recently. No matter the list, the better player always has the edge.
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Przemcio251
Member Avatar
Warrior of the Chamber
Well i think our army is no OP but they will relase it sooner then later becouse Chaos is one of the main antagonists for nearly every other race... and it will sourly sell good:) I just hope they will not cancel the marks as they did with beastmen...
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
rothgar13
Nov 11 2011, 02:37 AM
@Kormar: I should have recognized the posting style - fancy seeing you here, sir.

I admit to having over-estimated the fightiness of Gors (in part because of their favorable matchup vs. our very own Marauders), but that in no way invalidates the rest of what I've said, especially when my opinions are so close to your own (we have the same top-tier armies and very similar reasoning as to why, for example). I'm sorry to hear that you don't respect my opinion simply because we disagree on occasion, but I guess common courtesy isn't something to be expected over the Internet, even if you extend it to others.
I have been here a long time ;) You misunderstand, Its not a case that simply we disagree (you can't agree with everyone) its the way you go about trying to prove a point, rather than admit your wrong you just change the parameters of the discussion (and tbh I find that a little insulting, I dislike it when people insult my intelligence).

Thing with me is I am very blunt and I'm just telling you how it is, I I don't dislike you or anything but I think you have this need to always be right, hence why our discussion on Gors started to get very silly (if you honest I am sure you noticed that).

Quote:
 
we can't say dwarfs are balanced either. slayers are awesome models but they have no armour and almost always die early. flame cannons will only be able once before being charged and then get cut down. I can't say im complaining, but dwarfs are less balanced than WoC. artillery is awesome and slayers suck.

same for wood elves. want me to explain?


I dunno if thats entirely true, I think the only real difference is WoC have a very limited shooting phase while dwarfs have a very limited magic phase, ie being able to control the enemies magic phase with lots of dice but not being able to cast spells.

Quote:
 
Skaven
Dark Elves
Empire (tie for 3rd)
Dwarves (tie for 3rd)
High Elves (tie for 3rd)
Vampire Counts
Daemons
The New Ogre Kingdoms
Warrior of Chaos
Bretonians
Tomb Kings
Wood Elves


This is complete nonsense, HE, empire, and dwarfs are not that high in the tiers, HE have great elite infantry but low model count, they are very much glass hammers. The elites are a problem with ASF but units like marauders with sheer number of attacks and model will rip through things like SM. Their core is terrible and easy VPs for a chaos army. VC are terrible with only one viable build, grave guard regen bunker which isn't hard to deal with, chaos warriors with flaming attacks and MoK will do the job nicely :)

Daemons depends on the build, I haven't lost all that many games against daemons, flamers are a pain, certainly special characters are clearly broken.

Only real problem units with empire are the stank an archlector with VHS, other than that they are easy enough to deal with, especially with MoN warriors -2 to hit with shooting, you just have to take out the cannons quickly.

Dwarfs can be a problem depending on the speed of your army and if you can deal with their cannons quick enough, their dwarf warriors are pretty damn good horde units. Warriors can crunch through them just with heavy loses, these combats are usually decided by how much damage the dwarfs and chaos units have taken before combat.

Quote:
 
That 3+ ward is worth nothing against Dreadful 13th I had a block of chosen get wiped out no armor or ward save, nothing. Likewise there is stuff out there that doesn't allwo armor saves so our armor is good but there are ways around plus Brets get a 2+ armor save base. The problem is not that other armies have one trick win buttons the problem is our armie does not.

And, yes I know we have a big bad spell tell Infernal Gateway and the Skaven have to have 25 to cast their spell and we have to get only a 15, but then again ours only works on an 11-12, a very small percentage of the time while the dreadful works alway and usually with IF. Is it worth it to blow up your caster to take it absolutely. If they made IG where the casting was 25 but it removed a unit from play automatically I would take my wizard and put him in a cheap bunker of maruaders and cast it on the enemies main unit every time, even it it meant me blowing myself up, because my general will more than earned his points back by taking out say an Ogre Kingdom Deathstar.


Well the dreaded 13th is a very stupid spell that is a crutch for skaven players, you just need to remember they cannot cast it will in combat, interesting enough dragon ogres with additional hand weapons in a 2 formation are actually very good at Kill greyseers! immune to tones of stuff in the book, 4 attacks each + stomp, they can cause a lot of wounds to a single model :)

Edited by Kormak, Nov 11 2011, 07:23 PM.
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conjoy
Exalted Guardian
It seems pretty clear that people’s choice of lists and their ability with them is as much at play here as anything else.

Personally the only army I consistently struggle against is HElfs (Teclis or MSU) and a single cookie-cutter Dwarf list (Furgil’s if you know the Bugmans forums).

We have excellent counters to the main weapons of most of the other good armies:
DElfs: We have Blood Curdling to nullify the unkillable Dreadlord, our Warriors give Hydras the smack-down and we have a fire-based spell in our best lore. Beyond that our troops are at least as killy and cheaper.
Lizzies: Thanks to the Puppet we can largely nullify the damage caused by Cupped and on a Disc we can avoid Becalming (24inch range). Beyond that anything they can do, we can do better. Sknks<Marauders, Saurus<Warriors, TGuard<Chosen.
Skaven: granted, a difficult match-up but Marauders and Warriors can go toe to toe with their blocks, and with good use of Warhounds, Marauder Horse and Knights we can outmanoeuvre them.
Empire: Apart from the STank I don’t see anything to worry us. Gunlines are a joke against Warriors with our cheap Warhounds and their low BS.
Dwarfs: As per Empire but can be a bit harder because of the number of high S attacks they can bring with high WS and T to boot.
Vampires: Can be a challenge in the hands of a very good player, but our ability to bring so much damage to the table largely mitigates this. Any time an opponent brings Monsters and/or a Deathstar to the table they are asking for trouble.
And even leaving aside the above, how about we take a solid but balanced army liks Dwarfs and compare with those top-tier armies:
Lizzies: Cupped and Becalming are useless. They get one free IF spell per game (from Cupepd), but otherwise the Dwarfs will have as many Dispel Dice as there are Power Dice.
DElfs: any Double-cannon list (read any competitive list) is going to smash Hydras and GTs are going to be causing expensive infantry blocks all sorts of pain.
Skaven: The Skaven player can shut-down the Dwarf shooting, but does so at the expense of his own. Overall a fairly even match-up.

Less crying, more improving your generaling!
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rothgar13
Member Avatar
Clanlord
You mean generalship. :P In general, I agree with your opinions, conjoy, but I've yet to see people use Skinks for something other than shooting (people do it, I've seen their lists, but I haven't seen it on an actual table yet).

@Kormak: If you felt that I was moving the goalposts in our previous discussion, I apologize, because that was not the intent. I don't like coming off as "that guy who doesn't want to admit he's wrong". I want to promote intelligent discussion, because I'm pretty sure I don't know as much as I could about this game (heck, to this day I'm still waffling on what Warriors list I want to field!), and I did concede the point that Gors are buoyed by a really good support network, rather than being amazing troops in a vacuum. Hopefully we can have more discussions in the future.

Back on topic - I have to agree with your points regarding the tiers and the use of Dragon Ogres, and I would also suggest Chaos Trolls to fill that role. Sure, they have Stupidity, but that's not a crippling issue if you keep them within the Ld bubble (and at 12", you have a bit of wiggle room), and they're a lot cheaper than Dragon Ogres (so you bring more of them), and they're about as well protected (the extra Wound is about even with trading 4+ armor for Regen IMO). Speaking of which, I should make room for those guys...
Edited by rothgar13, Nov 11 2011, 11:55 PM.
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Przemcio251
Member Avatar
Warrior of the Chamber
conjoy you made a nice rundown but i would like to add that if you are playing choosen War Altar might be a problem... also never had any problems with VC... Choosen always kill off the Regen GG and warriors take care of the rest.
Edited by Przemcio251, Nov 13 2011, 04:42 AM.
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Hinge
Exalted Guardian
WoC are competitive in tourney play using several different types of builds and styles. In fact I would rate it in the lower end of the top tier armies. I certainly see it doing better in tournies then Skaven (though not DE or LM).

The book does not have a insta win strategy and requires a fair amount of generalship to do better then average. But who said the path to glory was easy? Plus, out playing an opponent is much more enjoyable then out list building them.

Hinge
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TheOneHawk
Warrior of the Chamber
Damnit Hinge, this was dead. Let it die. Most circular argument I've ever been in. Blargh.
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DarkChilde
The Chosen
Hinge
Nov 22 2011, 12:12 PM
WoC are competitive in tourney play using several different types of builds and styles. In fact I would rate it in the lower end of the top tier armies. I certainly see it doing better in tournies then Skaven (though not DE or LM).

The book does not have a insta win strategy and requires a fair amount of generalship to do better then average. But who said the path to glory was easy? Plus, out playing an opponent is much more enjoyable then out list building them.

Hinge
Look at GT list results. WOC is not doing well. Maybe at your local hobby shop that is the case but look for example at Ard Boyz results. Skaven are dominating. Dark Elves are also rating very high. A lot of the people who don't want a book sooner play other armies (some of which already have a new book...like Ogres) as their mainstay army.

Regardless, the argument is settled it seems per rumors WOC will not get a new book until around this time next year. Yay! We get to face off against amped up Ogres, VCS, and now Empire too, plus whatever other armies get the deluxe treatment before us thus we will fall more and more behind in the realm of playability. Needless, to say I love my WOC army but I will probably honestly shelve them for a while or just play an occasional fun skirmish with a friend every so often so my skills in the game don't atropy. Then this time next year when we get a new book I will face play again.

Hopefully the new book will redo somethings like give us stronger melee wizards who can stand up to other special characters (ogre kingdom wizards) in challenges since we HAVE to challenge and the EOTG will not be a tool other armies use against use.

Maybe we will have a big bad monster that is good enough and decently costed to go up against the thundertusk or to counteract mourfang cavalry (chaos knights damn sure aren't doing it) Until, then The Ogres, the Empire, The VCs the Skaven and the Dark Elves can all fight it out for glory. I have absolutely no intention of playing an army that is less updated than everyone else and watches everyone get all these amped up rules and special stuff before them that makes battling them even harder to beat while you have technically "the best overall core troops in the game" but so what those stats mean nothing against a 13th spell. Those states mean nothing against a unit that is 3 wide but gets full attacks plus impact hits on you and then stomps you on top of that. Those stats mean nothing against move and shoot canons. Those stats mean nothing against an army that can channel more and more power dice to get off spells (you can onliy counter so much) that weaken those stats down even more then send them up against a hydra.

Darkchilde,

My hope for our new book is that Jeremy V does it and does it as well as he did the Skaven.
Edited by DarkChilde, Nov 24 2011, 10:33 AM.
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