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Chaos 8th Ed Book - 2012
Topic Started: Nov 23 2011, 10:29 PM (2,301 Views)
Judgex83
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The leech lord
KB is only good against multi wound characters its a hero/lord killing ability. Oh no you KBed my 1 wound model that you being str 5 was probably going to make my save so bad I was going to fail it anyway. Your right I didnt think of them being 12pts and you can get alot more but they still only have 1 attack each so a standard warrior makes up for its point cost in the fact that it has more attacks. Kormak im seriously going to send my ninja monkeys after you if you continue to have an opinion that doesnt match mine.
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
*sighs*

You are assuming you are going to be using them against a unit with a low armour save, you have chaos warriors for that, you have bloodletters to go assassinate characters (dunno like a BSB, a ld 9/10 general, a wizard lord) or to deal with cavalry/any infantry model with a high armour save. Also do not forget they are unbreakable and M5, yes they have less attacks per model but if they are in a horde formation they have 30 WS5 S5 attacks with a 5+ wardsave. If your looking at nurgle warriors then your getting 18 WS5 S5 attacks (with halberds). While the warriors are attack first its something like:

18 attacks -> 9 hits -> 7.5 wounds -> 5 dead

vs

21 attacks -> 10.5hits -> 7 wounds (1KB) -> 5 dead (4 failed saves + 1 KB)

so combat res is:

Warriors:

5 W
1 R
1 B
Total 7

Bloodletters:

5W
2R
1 Banner
Total 8

So nurgle warriors draw on the charge and lose by 2 is charged, this also doesn't take into account if they fail a fear test (which is very possible with only Ld 8. Also the other thing here is the warriors will not be steadfast and even if they pass will slowly lose a war attrition unless the bloodletters are unlucky with unstable rolls.

Ninja monkey? more skulls for the skull throne ;)
Edited by Kormak, Nov 27 2011, 02:19 AM.
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DarkChilde
The Chosen
It seems in 8th edition to stay competitive you need to run a 4th level caster and then your level 2 and you build the rest of your army for there. Problem is most special characters (including their casters) can beat ours in HTH combat`(the Ogre Kingdom characters automatically come to mind) and yet our special characters are supposed to be so tough. So, two things I would like to see in the new book is 1) our special characters be pumped up to be more competitive and 2) the Eye of the Gods table needs to be redone. The average roll on a 2d6 is 7, which means the table is kind of designed to screw you over. So, I would say the chart needs to be redone not to screw players and the Eye of the Gods rule should be rewritten as well perhaps mayber to say something like chaos does have to accept a challenge, but if they do then they get the benefits.

I think the marks are honestly fine. Khorne is a strong mark. Tzeentch is also fine. Nurgle is a lilttle tricky in terms of melee, but not sure how to fix it. Personally I would just make the Mark of Nurgel cheaper like 15 pts and I would say that would fix the problem. A lot of people complain about Slaanesh, but I really don't have a problem with the mark. It is good to have a cheap mark to throw on cheap units like Marauder Horsemen that can be used as cannon fodder when facing gunline armies. If you wanted to make it stronger maybe have the mark give the always strike first rule, but then the cost would increase as well so again I don't mind the mark of Slaanesh as is.

I would like to be able to throw a mark on warhounds. I think throwing the MoS on warhounds to stop them from panicking with their low leadership would give us a bigger boost against shooty armies

I would like some type of artillery other than the Hellcannon. The Ogre Kingdoms Iron blaster is a move and shoot canon that is really not that expensive and also doesn't count as a warmachine but as a chariot (so cheap items like the Iron curse icon are useless against these abominations).

I know our magic items will get axed and nerfed, but I hope that they leave the Infernal puppet and the Blasted Standard alone. Those are two items I really think we need as an army. I also hoped the Third Eye of Tzeentch and demonic gifts are left alone.

I have heard some people complain that our spell Infernal Gateway is broken. I don't think it is as broken as a lot of other spells including spells in the core game so I hope they don't nerf the hell out of it.

I hope we have good lore attributes for our lores. In Storm of Magic I kind of think chaos got the shaft. We have to worry about normal miscast, then the fulcrum miscast, then the "wrath of khorne" mistcast whenever we cast a spell. Our big spell in the game Invisible Fires of Tzeentch does 3d6 str 2d6 wounds and autowounds on an 11-12. I think this kind of weak since chances are an 11-12 strength have a high chance of wounding already. Just my thoughts. Like I said I just hope IG doesn't get screwed over.

I don't think Marauders need to be increased in cost. I think they are fine as is. I think you should be able to include some kind of magic standard with Marauders just like Dark Elves can do with their cheap warriors.

-I think a shooting option/unit would be good. Maybe like a unit of marauder bowmen.

-I think for a melee based army the leadership of WOC is very poor and a detriment to us. I think that the the core leadership of Chaos Warriors and Chosen should be 9.

I would like to see us get a big bad something that is not too expensive for what it does (I think the monsters in the current WOC book are all overcosted except for spawn) and can really tie up a unit...like the thundertusk and the HPA. I think the Great Spawn in SoM or something along those lines is a good start.

-I would like to useless units like Forsaken (a unit I have never seen anyone use) be made competitive and useful.

-I would like to see Chaos Knights improved somehow. As it stands right now I would say both Bret and mournfang cavalry both beat them. Brets I can see because that is the whole schtick of the army but mournfang are a very killy unit and I have seen them eat through chaos knights. I don't honestly know how to improve the knights, but in the fluff CK are supposed to be the baddest of the bad something that select Chosen become, but in play they are just not that good and honestly, I haven't seen a lot of WOC players running them in this edition.

Just my thoughts. I hope opinions aren't considered trolling.

Darkchilde
Edited by DarkChilde, Nov 27 2011, 02:29 AM.
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TheOneHawk
Warrior of the Chamber
^At first I was like 'Oh God I don't want to read this post' Then I did, and you actually raised decent points and said something other than 'Chaos needs to be the strongest armybook' Thanks.

Marauders are fine in price, the problem is great weapons on them, stacked with MoK is pretty much the best 5 point a model unit in the game. GW need to be 2 points a model in 8th, because they got a lot better in 8th with step up and supporting attacks. Other than that, Marauders are totally fine. Put GW to 2 points and the other options will be viable again.

Marks. I know a lot of you guys like Tzeentch, but be honest with yourselves. When was the last time you saw an army where the majority of the marks were not Tzeentch at a tournament, or in an online list, which wasn't a fluffy, mono-god army. It's not broken, per se, it's just by far the best option. The fact that we have access to more 3+ ward saves than every other army put together (AFAIK) is a little ridiculous, I think. Sure, we pay for it, but it's still really great value for points.

I won't pretend to be a points balancing master, and I honestly don't know what I would want for the marks, but Khorne needs some magic defence, Nurgle needs to be active 100% of the time, Tzeentch needs to do something completely different, and Slaanesh needs a bit of a buff, since even though it's great for Marauder Horsemen, that's the only time people ever take it.

Warriors are pretty much solid, Knights need a slight points reduction, and most of our monsters need to be re-tooled a bit, but nothing is horrifically broken.

As Darkchilde pointed out, Mournfang Cav kinda came on to the scene with a bang. While their stats do kinda make sense for what they are (Ogres on really, really big steeds) they are probably point for point better than CK. This makes me think that either CK are going to drop in points, or get stronger. Mournfangs are the first heavy cav to be released in 8th, and they rock. Cav is a bit weaker in 8th, so maybe they're making heavy cav hit a bit harder. Devastating charge on CK, anyone?

Just my thoughts.
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
Hang on so your suggesting that chaos hounds should be able to worship the chaos gods and that the chaos gods even notice them??? sorry??? How is the MoT fine? multiple 3+ wardsave character is not fine! nor is a hero being able to buy a 4+ wardsave and 20pts of magic items, essentially MoT allows them to bypass the magic items allowance to some degree, like in the case of normally a 45pts magic item, they only use 30pts of their magic item allowance and can still take something like enchanted shield and a biting blade, no one else can do that!

Chaos warriors do not need ld9! they are still human, stuff like this is just a step backwards towards 4/5th ed day, why not just bump the WS and I back to 6 and be done with it!

15pts for MoN? so a ranked unit counts as skirmisers (for bs weapons) and you need WS7 to hit them on a 3+, thats on 15pts?

I also assume you don't mind slaanesh characters in khorne units or nurgle characters in Tzeentch units?

No mention of Chosen and warshrines in your post, I assume by this you think they are perfectly fine? especially with MoT
Edited by Kormak, Nov 27 2011, 03:19 AM.
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DarkChilde
The Chosen
One Hawk,

Your welcome....I think (although the results in GTs including Ard Boyz will speak for itself in term of WOC army results. We are losing). Now on to your points:

I will admit Marauders with MoK and GW are very good, but Marauders also die in droves and they are the only cheap unit that can actually do something that we really have. Also, going last with the great weapons and being so fragile is a huge weakness. I usually run my marauders with flails because not going last and strking first is a huge advantage in this game. Since our army really doesn't have any other schtick because melee and even other armies can rival us in that can we at least get a decent priced cheap unit i.,e marauders?

As far as Tzeentch being better and us having access to more ward saves than any other army well...that is because we need them. It is called survival. When we are going up against gunline armies with heavy shooting and high artillery and armies like ogres that get impact hits, multiattacks, and stomps on top of lead belchers, iron blasters, and scrap launchers we need something in our long march across the field of battle. Ward saves and Tzeentch keep us alive without them we would be dead before we reached the enemy.

Darkchilde
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DarkChilde
The Chosen
Kormak,

CW are supposed to be human but warped by chaos in the fluff this explains why they can march across deserts in fullplate armor, because heat doesn't bother them. I see no problem with them having one higher leadership like dwarves.

Yes, I think chaos hounds should be noticed by the gods just like spawn and forsaken and every other chaff unit.

I don't have a problem having our characters have a 3+ ward save especially since most other army special characters beat ours in HTH combat anyway.

No. I don't have a problem with warshrines and chosenstar anymore than I have a problem with the ogre deathstar or slaughtermaster/tyrant combo or the empire archlector pope mobile combo, etcetera, etcetera.

As far as mixing marks. I use all marks in my army because all of them are useful under the right circumstances. I know in previous editions the marks couldn't exist or certain ones couldn't exist in the same army and that must have sucked. I can't imagine this kind of HUGE limitation. If we are not doing well in tourneys now we must have been an army people played just for the fluff and not to win back then, but I don't know I started in 8th.

Darkchilde.
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
My point is thats how they used to be, it was pretty silly, I actually like the fact they have been brought inline with human heroes, really thats what they are so the stats they really reflects this.

Spawn are not noticed by the gods, they are the ones that failed in their quest of daemonhood, forsaken are well on the way as well, I still don't see why a dog should be noticed, care to explain why?

Those are special characters, if you want powerful special character killers then leave to other special characters, you do not need to overpower one mark for characters, its unbalanced.

Ogre deathstar is no different to packing a unit of chaos warriors with multiple powerful combat characters, pope isn't that amazing either, shaggoth are actually really good at dealing with them ;)

Actually it didn't suck, it reflected the fluff that was written rather than what we have now, its just a upgrade system rather than a representation of the fluff, hence why the book is bland.

The marks lack any form of synergy, look at the daemon book, the units of different gods compliment each other far better, if you look that also restricts what characters join what units.


*edit*

why does it take so bloody long to log into ToR :(
Edited by Kormak, Nov 27 2011, 03:33 AM.
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DarkChilde
The Chosen
Kormak,

Giving them a L9 doesn't make them outside the realm of mortal stats. The other stats are also really good to reflect the nautre of them being marked by chaos. Our low leadership is a big detriment to us especially being a melee based army.

Chaos spawn do get noticed by the gods hence why you can put any mark of any of the gods on the chaos spawn so, why should the dogs be any different. As to why? The hounds have been blessed by chaos already outside the range of normal dogs. The taint that infects them could have have a strong essence of one of the gods in it. Thus, they get marked, or the gods might just mark them for the heck of it. This is chaos after all.

The old system may have reflected the fluff but if it wasn't effective mechancially then so what? I don't want an army that is all fluff with no crunch behind it, which is probabl why they changed it . I agree our current book is a little bland and they could make it be more fluffy, but I don't want to sacrifice effectiveness for the sake of crunch. On this we may just have to agree to disagree, which is fine, but as it stands we aren't doing what we need to in tourneys now even with the throgg list and the chosenstar so I don't want us to drop in power even more. Hell, might as well play wood elves at that point.

I have the Daemons book. I like it. I would like to see better interaction between DoC and WoC but I know that will probably not happen just due to the way the book are set up, but I wouldn't want characters from being restricted to joining certain units because of marks.

Darkchilde,
Edited by DarkChilde, Nov 27 2011, 03:43 AM.
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Judgex83
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The leech lord
oh oh I got a great idea for giving you a reason to run a mono god army. Make it so you get +1 to whatever stat the mark gives to the unit. If mark of khorne gives +1 attack make it so if you run 3 units with that mark you get +3 attacks to ever khorne unit you run. In case of nurgle make it +1 toughness to every nurgle unit you run wooot T8 warriors. Now ofcourse this is purely a joke but I wanted to see what kormak would say lol
Edited by Judgex83, Nov 27 2011, 03:48 AM.
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
DarkChilde,

Leadership 8 for a core troops is not low, 7 is average, 8 is above average while 9 is high, 5 is low, leadership is pretty reliable, especially with a reroll, what you basically saying here that HE troops have low leadership?? Now if you talking about characters that is a totally different subject.

Have you considered the reason why spawn have marks is because they are former chaos champions and already had marks? the mark is like stamp saying "this soul is mine" and the effect is representation of what kind of person you have to be in order to be follower of that Chaos god and thus noticed. Why should dogs be any different? ok think about it very carefully, what is slaanesh the god? good of pleasure, now you suggesting that a chaos god would notice and brand a dog for being seriously perverted??? what? does anyone else think this sounds daft?

Their was nothing wrong with the old system, the problem with the old book was chaos warriors only had heavy armour, one attack and used to cost 14pts a model. Chosen used to cost 20pts a model and were exactly the same as the current chaos warriors just limited 0-1. In generally the system for marks and characters was perfectly fine but so many things were just to many points for what they brought the table, if you had the old marks with the current book you would be able to make very fluffy and competitive armies, Problem was Phil Kelly just ignored fluff and didn't give any thought to how the marks should work. I mean the warshrine is a perfect example of this! When I look at the WoC book it just doesn't look at all thought out, its typical Phil Kelly minimal effort job.

I would like to see better interaction between WoC and daemons, I know its not going to happen sadly, still I have that lovel warhammer forge book so I don't really care ;) Nothing wrong with restrictions, sometimes having restrictions balances things out, I mean seriously, lack of restrictions haven't made a better book, its tweaking the units which used to be heavily over priced. But if your going to spend all this time writing all this amazing fluff to sell a army, why ignore it when it comes to writing the rules to represent it? might as well rip those pages out and just have some pretty pictures with rules.
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DarkChilde
The Chosen
Kormak,

L8 is low for an army that relies predominately on melee tactics and has a minimal amount of artillery, coupled with the fact that we are an army for which speed is at a premium. If we were a higher speed army or if we had better shooting options, etc I would say L8 is decent. As it stands we are highly limited in those areas coupled with an L8. If we are "elite warriors" then they should have a leadership to reflect that.

As far as the hounds again I think it depends on the explanation. For example, in the chaos waste their maybe are area in which the warp has bleed through of which Slaanesh essence is highly present. In that case the hounds and animals in the area affected by the warp maybe Slaanesh influenced and the same goes for the other chaos gods. I just don't see a reason from a fluff or mechanics perspective dogs can't have marks, but especially from a fluff perspective considering this is chaos and the chaos gods are supposedly a fickle lot.

Again, I am not going to pretend to know about the old system, but it sounds horrible to me, coupled with the fact the hellcannon was supposedly much more dangerous to use and from what I have been told our magic wasn't so great back then either it sounds to me like Chaos honestly sucked, which is why I have advocated in the next book it should be chaos time to be on top (the spot the Skaven have occupied since 8th. If this is the case then while I think Phil Kelly should have made our book stronger, he did the right thing in cutting out hte restrictions on the marks. I am a fan of the chaos undivided philosopy. I also think the warshrine (not sure if these existed in previous books are not) are one of the few really good monster choices we have although in my opinion it still pales in comparison to things like the Steam Tank, the Thundertusk, the HPA, and God only knows what sick monster the VC will get.

Darkchilde
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cross
The Chosen
i dont know why tzeench is broken?? we are supposed to be super tough warriors infused with the raw power of the dark gods. what represents this better then a +1 to ward save?? both fluff wise and as a game mechanis. i mean a captain of the empire can have a 4+ ward. i think its a joke if we dont have the potential to have a better ward than that.

every army has something the other doesnt. we dont have an a bomb, hydra, ironblster, shooting of any type, a slann. the list is endless. we NEED something that others dont have. i agree without other options we have a long march across the board before we engage. we need better ld as mentioned above a good ward.

again being super tough, elite close combat fighters and imbued with chaos is reflected perfectly in the mark of tzeench. if anything increase its cost.
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
DarkChilde,

sorry but you are seriously making me shake my, so you are you seriously telling me you struggle to win games because of leadership 8? maybe you should take a chaos lord as your general rather than a sorcerer lord? I mean if leadership 9 is that important right? We all know its not, I have never meet anyone who complains about the low leadership of the army, especially as it can reroll painc tests as standard and you make the whole army IP (through Khorne or Slaanesh's better version of IP). I don't really see what your point is about being limiting in the shooting phase, it always has, hell I can remember when we had no shooting (back in 5th) and just short bows on one unit and bows on BS6 chariot crew. Its not something new, Chaos shooting is limited because the army contains some of the best core troops in the game! leadership 9 really is not needed, if your constantly losing I suggest you look at your list, the only army I struggle against is skaven and that is simply because of one spell.

All I can see on hounds is I suggest you actually read the fluff, your are just trying to make up terrible excuses for dogs dedicated to the Good of pleasure! Honestly if beastmen don't get marks why should chaos hounds, beastmen are children of chaos after all, next thing you will be suggesting marks for chaos steeds as well!

You know nothing about the old system, it never prevent you from mixing marks, it just prevented you mixing them in the same unit, your talking about a bunch of religious nuts. Having nurgle and Tzeentch in the same unit is ludicrous! these guys are polar opposites! I mean yeah they will come together when they have to but i don't think they are going to be standing that close to each other! Phil Kelly could have left the mark system alone, made all the same changes and the book would have still been stronger, it certainly wouldn't have been weaker than it is now, that is of course if you ignore the eotg rule (which makes sorcerers very weak) and how he messed up daemon princes.

Basically the olds rules are:

Your units may only have the same mark as your general, if you general has mark of chaos undivided then you may mix marks freely, if you want a tzeentch character then you must take a tzeentch unit. I don't see any issues here, just means a Tzeentch hero is going to turn up with a bunch of followers rather than a bunch of nurgle guys he hates. Thats the difference between the new and old book, the old book allowed people to play the army the way they liked, the new book can only be played in a few very limited ways, it hasn't added choices, its removed so many and just buffed units.

Magic being better has nothing to do with the old system, mark lores improve with every book, removing restrictions would not have changed this.

Hellcannon is debatable, in the previous edition it had a wardsave, magical attacks, it could reroll the scatter dice, small template models are hit, large template models hit take a panic test. It only rampaged when a enemy was within 2D6", it has S6 and T7, it has a S6 breath weapon that caused terror tests on models touched by the template.

Personally I don't care who is top dog, all I care about is being able to make a fun, interesting list that wont get rolled over, the WoC list completely ruined my mono Khorne army and I have over 10K of warriors (pure khorne).

Warshrine a good monster? erm no, hellcannon is a good monster, a warshrine is just away to abuse the eotg table with chosen, its S4 and no stomp, how is that a good monster?


@ Cross,

All chaos warriors are super tough warriors infused with the power of the dark gods, yet Khorne heroes are meant to be the best fighting heroes, clearly they are not if a Tzeentch hero can have a 3+ wardsave. No other generic hero can have a 3+ wardsave, I think its a joke that people find that balanced, I have my mono Tzeentch army and its boring as hell to use. Tzeentch is the good of change, not super hard to kill characters, nurgle is meant to be the more resilient one!

Also why do you think the list didn't have proper wardsaves originally? clearly the designer didn't think it was balanced to allow MoT to have access to them.
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cross
The Chosen
khorne is the most violent, murderous god. but they cant even parry. tzeench is a tricky bastard the deciever, changer. it makes sense that khorne is more "killy" more attacks immune to fear. but tzeench is harder to kill. the source of nearly all magic should be reflected.

at the end of the day we dont have to agree. i just really hope they dont screw the book up. the idea of loosing half the stuff i think works best is disturbing.

as a side note. i think MR is avarage. it doesnt stop the big scary spells and has no effect on hexes. i would like to see khorne units get +d3 to dispel attempts when targeted by a spell.
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