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Chaos 8th Ed Book - 2012
Topic Started: Nov 23 2011, 10:29 PM (2,299 Views)
rothgar13
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Clanlord
Leadbelchers can shoot every turn now, actually. They changed that. Still, a Nurgle unit pretty much handles them by itself.
Edited by rothgar13, Nov 29 2011, 04:52 AM.
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
Oh I thought they said slow to reload, not slow to fire! either way they are not massive issue considering the are BS3, its either MoN or you use chaos hounds to your units. MoN is generally good against ogres because so many models have WS3.

Of course we have the other trump card, 3rd eye, may as well steal all those really great buff spells and use them on our own units.
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DarkChilde
The Chosen
Kormak,

Hold on a second so saying so your whole spiel in the first paragraph of your post number 58 about if something is broken you need to make it more attractive not less attractive and you would increase the leadership of the Chaos Lord from L9 to L10 isn’t an attempt to make the Chaos lord a more viable choice? Come on, now be honest with your argument. Your right you didn’t say you wanted it to be a more viable choice you stated you wanted it to be a more attractive choice. This is split hair semantics at its worst.

You are correct a unit that does impact hits, 3 attacks each, has multiple wounds and stomps is damn big problem (yet we are supposed to be the best melee army in the game). Leadership 9 may not fully help the problem but any ounce of leadership we can get to help with combat resolution can help to alleviate the problem I can name at least 2 games were I lost a unit just by rolling one more over the leadership score that I needed. Without increased Leadership what would you propose for dealing with the problem that you outlined? Give me some alternatives. I do like your idea about more flyers and counter units in the army. I do not know if that will happen, but it is a good idea. Keep in mind those flying units also have to be a) cheap enough where we can spam them to soak up fire or b) tough enough to withstand heavy enemy.

Tournaments are only a single aspect of competitive play., besides tournaments there are local store leagues etc. For example, the game shops in my area (there are about 3 ones that have a steady warhammer crowd) all run local leagues ranging from escalation leagues to campaign style leagues, etc. While leagues are not as serious or cutthroat as GTs they is still a competitive element to it and the winners of the local league will usually get a small price like gift certificate at the game shop or free box of models, etc and their listings in the leagues are ranked every week or regularly for everyone to keep track of the score and rankings. Understand, even in a “friendly” league I don’t enjoy being the guy who has an antiquated army book going up against buggin gunlines (we have several dwarf players), skaven ( I know at least 4 people running Skaven armies…wonder why that is, hmmm), dark elves, and now overpowered amped up ogres that have supplanted the WOC for infantry and coming in at a low place in the league. And, before we start with personalized attacks along the lines of “you must be losing, etcetera etcetera” I have almost won one league and placed decently in others, but as the new books come out before ours we slip further and further down the proverbial rabbit hole, and Ogres have contributed to this (recently in the league we have 2 people that switched to playing Ogres). I am the only WOC guy in the league besides on other dude who is new and plays but keeps getting beat and as a result has stopped showing up for a lot of games (not sure he is even in the league any more to be honest, but then I think it is okay as I hate having duplicate armies in a league). Even amongst my pals in just friendly games I am sick of going up against my buddies Ogre Kingdoms list. I am tired of going up against my other friends dwarven gunline combo. Now, VCS are coming to be even grosser. Skaven I'm still looking for the mushroom patch the author was on with that whole book, because it's got to be some good portobellos.

I mean, Kormak, I get that you don’t care about winning and you like playing a nice fluffy list. You don’t care about being a top tier army you just want a good story. Okay fine, but for me at this point it’s almost like…remove yourself from any league play as well as tournament play definitely, but continue to collect and build your figures, play a few games every couple a months with a buddy to keep your skills from atrophying and just wait for the new army book to come out in 2012 and hope that the books is as good to us as the OK book was to the Ogres and other armies out there. Maybe other people feel that way (like the newbie that stopped) or maybe not but that is honestly how I feel I don’t have fun playing a bunch of overpowered amped up armies that pretty much all have a schtick (magic, shooting, melee brutality, etc) that we can touch but our army is not really a master of. I see that as a design flaw. You don’t. Sometimes you just have to gentlemanly disagree and I think that is where we are on this.
Edited by DarkChilde, Nov 29 2011, 11:42 AM.
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
DarkChilde
Nov 29 2011, 11:15 AM
Kormak,

Hold on a second so saying so your whole spiel in the first paragraph of your post number 58 about if something is broken you need to make it more attractive not less attractive and you would increase the leadership of the Chaos Lord from L9 to L10 isn’t an attempt to make the Chaos lord a more viable choice? Come on, now be honest with your argument. Your right you didn’t say you wanted it to be a more viable choice you stated you wanted it to be a more attractive choice. This is split hair semantics at its worst.


Sorry? what are you talking about? make something broken more attractive, don't you mean is something is weak then make it more attractive? Making a Chaos lord leadership 10 doesn't change anything, you will be able to make a sorcerer lord leadership 10! currently the only way to get leadership 10 is a chaos lord with the +1 leadership banner, common magic items need to be factored in as well. More viable, more attractive, same thing to me (did you just saying something about splitting hairs?) I didn't however say I wanted it to be a more competitive choice than a chaos sorcerer.

[qoe]You are correct a unit that does impact hits, 3 attacks each, has multiple wounds and stomps is damn big problem (yet we are supposed to be the best melee army in the game). Leadership 9 may not fully help the problem but any ounce of leadership we can get to help with combat resolution can help to alleviate the problem I can name at least 2 games were I lost a unit just by rolling one more over the leadership score that I needed. Without increased Leadership what would you propose for dealing with the problem that you outlined? Give me some alternatives. I do like your idea about more flyers and counter units in the army. I do not know if that will happen, but it is a good idea. Keep in mind those flying units also have to be a) cheap enough where we can spam them to soak up fire or b) tough enough to withstand heavy enemy.[/quote]

+1 leadership isn't going to solve anything in regards to OK, you might stick around abit longer, testing on leadership 6 rather than 5, winning combats is what needs to be solved, frankly the issue with ogre deathstars is all the characters pumping out S7 attacks and being immune to magic. WoC need a away to deal with multiple combat characters. If you want alternatives I actually have a whole thread on the thing, I doubt you will like it but hey, still very early work.

WoC having flyers is from a older system that didn't work, guess they did do some things right ;) back in 6th I think every chaos player had a unit of chaos furies for warmachine hunting, much better than the option we have now, MoN marauders (for the -1 to hit with shooting).

Quote:
 
Tournaments are only a single aspect of competitive play., besides tournaments there are local store leagues etc. For example, the game shops in my area (there are about 3 ones that have a steady warhammer crowd) all run local leagues ranging from escalation leagues to campaign style leagues, etc. While leagues are not as serious or cutthroat as GTs they is still a competitive element to it and the winners of the local league will usually get a small price like gift certificate at the game shop or free box of models, etc and their listings in the leagues are ranked every week or regularly for everyone to keep track of the score and rankings. Understand, even in a “friendly” league I don’t enjoy being the guy who has an antiquated army book going up against buggin gunlines (we have several dwarf players), skaven ( I know at least 4 people running Skaven armies…wonder why that is, hmmm), dark elves, and now overpowered amped up ogres that have supplanted the WOC for infantry and coming in at a low place in the league. And, before we start with personalized attacks along the lines of “you must be losing, etcetera etcetera” I have almost won one league and placed decently in others, but as the new books come out before ours we slip further and further down the proverbial rabbit hole, and Ogres have contributed to this (recently in the league we have 2 people that switched to playing Ogres). I am the only WOC guy in the league besides on other dude who is new and plays but keeps getting beat and as a result has stopped showing up for a lot of games (not sure he is even in the league any more to be honest, but then I think it is okay as I hate having duplicate armies in a league). Even amongst my pals in just friendly games I am sick of going up against my buddies Ogre Kingdoms list. I am tired of going up against my other friends dwarven gunline combo. Now, VCS are coming to be even grosser. Skaven I'm still looking for the mushroom patch the author was on with that whole book, because it's got to be some good portobellos.


Never said tournaments are the only form of competitive play, it does however give a solid example of competitive, it doesn't matter if its in a store, at home with your mates or at warhammer world, its still competitive play (now, what was it you said? ;) hair splitting?

I have a reasonable tournament score myself, won one, came 2nd in another, and come in the top 10 in a few, last one I went I did pretty bad but my sorcerer kept blowing up. I personally hate playing against dwarfs but I can't remember the last time I lost against one, I've played against good and bad dwarf players I always found the key to beating them was holding the cannons up with hounds until you reach combat, they don't need to beat them, just stop them firing for a turn or two. I don't think many people will agree with you that its slipping furter and further down the charts, I didn't have any problems with the new orc book including savage orc big uns bus. TK's are not considered to be a powerful army, need to get some games in against them, ogres seem like abit of a one trick pony and would certainly make me consider taking lore of death.

skaven is a tricky one, it can be done with a tzeentch sorcerer and a hellcannon or by engaging them in combat quickly, interesting enough, I found small units of dragon ogres in a 2x2 formation are perfect deal with them, additional hand weapons concentrate attacks on the grey sheer.

Quote:
 
I mean, Kormak, I get that you don’t care about winning and you like playing a nice fluffy list. You don’t care about being a top tier army you just want a good story. Okay fine, but for me at this point it’s almost like…remove yourself from any league play as well as tournament play definitely, but continue to collect and build your figures, play a few games every couple a months with a buddy to keep your skills from atrophying and just wait for the new army book to come out in 2012 and hope that the books is as good to us as the OK book was to the Ogres and other armies out there. Maybe other people feel that way (like the newbie that stopped) or maybe not but that is honestly how I feel I don’t have fun playing a bunch of overpowered amped up armies that pretty much all have a schtick (magic, shooting, melee brutality, etc) that we can touch but our army is not really a master of. I see that as a design flaw. You don’t sometimes you just have to gentlemanly disagree and I think that is where we are on this.


This is going to be problem with competitive play, I don't find taking a broken as hell list to tournaments is anymore fun, the games are just boring as hell to play, hence why I don't use my DE. Thing is which is something I have been trying to get across to you, making the list fluffy doesn't have to mean its weak, here are some old marks.

MoK: frenzy, all models/units generate dispel dice
MoT: heros = lvl2 sorcerer lords = lvl4 sorcerer, units generate powerdice

I could take a my mono khorne army, have 9 dispel dice (I got bored of this and reduced it to 6), have a army that is very fluffy but still be able to take part in the game without being hamstrung. A new book isn't going to be less powerful, it will certainly be more powerful, I just want something that doesn't piss all over the fluffy players again.
Edited by Kormak, Nov 29 2011, 12:06 PM.
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Ghular
Warrior of the Chamber
"Tzeentch is the god of change, not super hard to kill characters, nurgle is meant to be the more resilient one!"

As a dedicated Nurgle fan, let me just say amen to this. I really am sick of having to take a Tzeentch BSB because it's just so much better than the alternative for survivability. Tzeentch Sorcerers are more resilent then a Nurgle Lord and have way better movement/effect on the game.

The one and only thing I want is balanced marks so that everyone can run a decently effective army of their god. What's the point of all this great fluff and background if one god is clearly the better choice gamewise for almost every situation. If they fix some other things in the book and add variation/good gifts I will be happy too, but fix the marks and move on in the book from there.
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dajunglebrotha
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The Chosen
a new chariot would be great, all the chariots suck right now
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GeneralofChaos42
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The Puppet Master
I love to see our book stay close to the same as it is now, with a few tiny adjustments.
A] lore of Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzeentch get some combat buffs
B] Mark of Tzeentch adds PD not +1 to Ward Save [every 2 Tz units add 1 extra PD]
C] Mark of Nurgle to get -1 to hit in close combat, as well as shooting
D] Forsaken to get skirmish ability
E] Dragon Ogres to get T5 and 3W
F] Shaggoth to much cheaper and stubborn rule, with Chaos Armour over HA.
G] return of Egrimm Van Horstmann and Kromm as Speciial Characters [please]


I love the current book and hope we do not take a huge step up or back in army tiers or power... lets keep our fingers crossed.


GoC
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
GeneralofChaos42
Dec 1 2011, 03:15 AM
Mark of Tzeentch adds PD not +1 to Ward Save [every 2 Tz units add 1 extra PD]
Seriously, that would be more broken than the slanns free dice
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rothgar13
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Clanlord
Yeah, you don't want to be adding free dice willy-nilly.
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DarkChilde
The Chosen
The thing with the mark of nurgle at -1 shooting doesn't really seem to help that much as the main damage I face during the shooting phase comes from template weapons and canon not BS attacks. The ward save that Tzeentch gives (or improves upon like taking the blasted standard from 5 to 4 and the iron curse icon from 6 to 5 as well as granting a 5+ parry save) is giving our army the resilience it needs to stay competitive otherwise we would be wiped out, and Ogres have already stepped up to be the kings of close combat.

In one league I play in the number one player is a skaven,but close behind him is a guy who plays ogres. I have faced him twice and watched him play against other opponents. From what I have seen he runs an Ogre Death star 3 wide and when combat happens he puts all his characters in the front facing the combat unit and his characters are ridiculous. No one has been able to touch these characters. One character had a WS 10 (I think from Fencer's blades) and some stupid item that when it hit the guys wizard caused him to lose a wizard level per hit. Hit not wounds. In addition, he runs a unit of I think four mournfang. Another block of bulls and 2 iron blasters.

For the most part he just steam rolls over every other army in the game, except I saw him play Skaven one time and he had a draw against skaven (dreaded 13th doesn't work on his army), but since Jeremy V wrote both books. I guess I should expect them both to be good.

All I can say is I hope we don't stay the same in power and long live the Tzeentch ward save. A cheaper shaggoth and something for the forsaken would be nice.

Darkchilde
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theorox
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Clanlord
I agree Nurgle needs some buffing...but so does Slaanesh in my opinion. :)
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
Really your logic is flawed and you don't see the issues with it, if the MoT is relied on to remain competitive then it is clearly superior to the other marks, that only hurts game balance. MoT is not relied on to make the blastered standard viable useful if you change the item, this is also assuming the item even stays, new books are losing large chunks of the item lists. Parry save isn't a issue, most people give their chaos warriors halberds and thus won't using the 5+ parry save available, remember S4 is going to struggle to win combat and it wont help against a OK deathstar with lots of s7 attacks. T3 armies are hurt far more by template weapons than we are, especially with the small base sizes, thankfully their are only a couple of S5 template weapons about.

I assume then this ogre player has no command models in his unit? command models have to stay in the front rank so his characters cannot use the makeway rule to move to the front, if we go with this assumption perhaps you guys should start playing the missions.

Sounds like this guy would really struggle with blood and glory, people need to remember that the missions actually help balance things out.

If MoT is needed to remain competitive then obviously either the other marks are under powered or the MoT is over powered, no two ways about it which seems to contradict what you said before about all but nurgle being fine.
Edited by Kormak, Dec 1 2011, 07:28 PM.
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DarkChilde
The Chosen
kormak,

Read the make way rules on page 100 of the WF main rule book. Characters can always make way in combat and replace rank and file including command models. I don't think people really realize how subtle but powerful having a unit three wide with full attacks from the front and second rank is in WF where every inch of movement and how you move is important. It means it is harder to charge the ogres, you will not have gun frontage when you face them but they have concentrated attacks and wounds in a small frontage and due to their movement they should be getting the charge off on you, which translates into impact hits.

Yes, other armies can be hurt by template weapons but then other armies have their own template weapons to shoot back. Like the Bret Trebuchet which I believe is around 100 pts.

I use Mark of Tz with hand weapon and shields and Blasted standard for my anvil units. For Hammer I will use mark of tzeentch with halberds or 2 hand weapons combined with banner of rage.

Also if you read my initial post in this thread I state all the marks are pretty much fine, but the mark of nurgle is a little tricky but I don't know how to fix it. The flaw isn't I my logic. The flaw is you are not listening ;)

Darkchilde

P.s. I really do hope Jeremy vetok writes our book. Seems like he is the king midas of gw everything he touches turns to gold.

Edited by DarkChilde, Dec 1 2011, 10:21 PM.
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conjoy
Exalted Guardian
Honestly DarkChilde if you're getting stomped by OK in combat you are doing something massively wrong.
We have all the tools necessary to go toe to toe with these guys and win. Basically anything he can bring to the table, we can do better:
Thundertusk+Ironguts<Khorne Marauder Horde
OK magic<Tz magic (even including Helheart<Disc+Puppet)
Ironblaster<Helcanon
Bulls<Warriors
Fairly equal point for point:
Mournfang=Knights his higher movement and impact hits can be negated by our ability to win the chaff battle and our higher AS and access to marks cancel out his higher number of attacks.
The only places he wins are:
Sabertooth>Warhounds and probably equal to marauder Horse unless MoK (but we have Chariots and Warshrines to clear chaff)
OK have the utility of Leadbelchers, but again these are really only good at clearing chaff, and won’t really work against our Chariots and Warshrines.
The only other win OK has over us is Maneaters, and we simply have no direct counter to a unit that can take Scout and Swiftstride, shoot and deliver 15 WS4 S5 attacks + 9 WS4 S 7 attacks.
IMHO, this is just about the best unit in the game at the minute, they have are like Lothern on Steroids, only tougher and with better utility.
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GeneralofChaos42
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The Puppet Master
Kormak
Dec 1 2011, 04:38 AM
GeneralofChaos42
Dec 1 2011, 03:15 AM
Mark of Tzeentch adds PD not +1 to Ward Save [every 2 Tz units add 1 extra PD]
Seriously, that would be more broken than the slanns free dice
For every 2 marks of Tzeentch, your talking 40 pts for 1 extra PD. For 2 extra PD your spending 80 points, for 3 PD it's 120 points. That is pretty reasonable to me, not over the top. Plus you need 2 marks to get the bonus of a extra dice. Now the Slaan free power dice costs how much again? What the price of the sacerfice dagger again? Just my 2 cents, then again I be happy if they left the current mark of Tzeentch alone.


GoC





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