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Chaos 8th Ed Book - 2012
Topic Started: Nov 23 2011, 10:29 PM (2,298 Views)
Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
Darkchilde,

while its true that characters may use the make way rule to exchange places with command models the command model rules state they must be placed in the front range whenever possible. Just to note the the makeway rules do not state they override the command rules, just that they may exchange places. An example of this would be a unit is flank charged and the character is on one flan while the standard is on the flank being charged. I am very aware how powerful and abusive the 3 wide character horde is, I have played against it myself (had 5 characters in the unit).

WoC have their own template weapons to shoot, its called a hellcannon which is S(10)5 and causes panic tests on a -1, while they are expensive they are actually really hard to take out. Unlike other armies warmachines its is a also very potent in combat and as such a cheap chaff unit is not enough to do it or even lock it in combat for a turn. The hellcanons roles changes from monster to warmachine depending on the army you face.

Thats nice for you, thats what I do in my Tzeentch list, this does not change the fact that the blastered standard could be changed to be a 4+ wardsave against ranged weapons and thus not rely on the MoT.

Clearly the marks are not fine as you have just shown you don't need MoK when you have the banner of rage and you moaning about the lack of template protection that relies on a single mark to be effective. Essentially you have said that the army needs MoT to be competitive yet I don't see such a comment about any other mark, so, I am not seeing how all the marks and fine.

GeneralofChaos42,

I think bonus power and dispel dice is a out dated ability from 7th ed that just doesn't work with 8th ed, I think the slann made priest and warrior priest highlight the issue very well. With a average roll of a 7 you are looking 10PD vs 4/5 dispel dice, that is a massive advantage that will just see Tzeentch made the primary mark again.

We all love out chaos armies but I think sometimes we need to stand back and say "I think its abit much", I would love my khorne army to generate dispel dice again but I know it would just be to much.
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DarkChilde
The Chosen
Kormak,

I get what you are saying about the command group but since per the rule of make way it states a character can exchange places with any rank and file model in the beginning of close combat (it doesn't list conditions like only if the unit is charged, etc) what these Ogre Kingdoms players are doing is keeping their characters in the second rank, until you engage them in close combat (irregardless of who got the charge off) that way you have to face their over powered characters in combat instead of rank and file although the ranke and file that are in the second rank still get their full attack allotment. Additionally, this is a detriment for WoC since because or "gift" i.,e "The Eye of the Gods" we have no choice but to challenge him in combat.

Yes, we do have a template weapon. I am well aware of the Hellcanon Kormak. I have ran one in several games sometimes to success sometimes not. In my opinion, it is highly overcosted and I am aware this issue is a hot debate amongst people. I can say it has usually just been a big point giver to my opponents. Yes, it can fight as a monster and all that but I would rather have a cheaper warmachine like the Bretonian Trebuchet and Ogre Kingdom Iron blaster to field multiple ones for not all that much more than what a single Hellcanon cost (2 Bret Trebuchets are cheaper than a single hellcannon) and hit them multiple times. True other armies templates are not as high a strenghth but they can hit multiple times and combine their artillery with other artillery like cannon fire which can be very devastating as witnessed by the Iron Blaster. Hell come to think of the Iron Blaster can move and shoot (unlike the Hellcannon) and is not all that bad in combat and the point cost on it isn't super ridiculous either.

The run the Mark of Khorne on my Marauders sometimes as well as other units depending on what I want them to do. I think the Mark of Khorne has no problem. Yes, they MIGHT could change it so the bearer never loses frenzy, but then that would also increase the cost of the mark. The mark of Tzeentch I like as is. The mark of Slaanesh I like as is also. It may seem lackluster compared to other marks but I think the cost balances it out and allows you to put it on chaff units (except warhounds) to keep them as cheap as possible and make them immune to certain effects and panic. This is awesome with units like Marauder Horseman who have low leadership (7) and hardly any real durability. I stated from the get go the Mark of Nurgle is very situational, but I'm not sure how to correct it.

I know you directed the last portion of your post to someone else but about us standing back and saying something is a bit much as you put it I wonder are dark elves doing that? Are skaven doing that? Are the new Ogres doing that? No. So, bugger that. They are loving what they have and we should increase our and promote our army as well.



P.S. a little off subject but just out of curiosity...as I stated I got into WH in this edition. I just recently started reading White Dwarf. In the last few issues (I'm don't remember the exact issue numbers) when WOC have been featured they have been losing. First, there was an issue when Storm of Magic was released and they did a Battle report with WOC vs Dark Elves and WOC lost. Then they had an issue where the new model Nurgle Champion have a face off against the newer model Saurus Old Blood and gets what? The WOC figure lost and the Lizardman character won, and just recently in the December WD they have a SoM Battle report where DoC and WOC align against OK and O&G which ends in a draw withe the DOC being the army that keeps the chaos players in the game at all. Just wondering when was the last time in WD WOC actually had a battle report and won (and I hope it wasn't against wood elves)/ I mean, it is pretty bad when the magazine of the company that produces the game we play constantly has WOC losing.
Edited by DarkChilde, Dec 2 2011, 12:56 PM.
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DarkChilde
The Chosen
Conjoy,

No. I am not doing anything wrong. I don’t think you realize exactly how powerful a three wide Ogre deathstar is with maxed out characters (greedy fist, etc) in the front rank, and the second rank getting full attacks. A horde of characters that can hit for up to a d6 impact hits, then gets multiple attacks (3), then gets stomp, plus have a high strength and multiple wounds per model and if you are beating this block easily then evidently you must be facing an opponent who simply does not know what they are doing. They move fast so if played correctly they should be getting the charge off also.

I checked out the Ogre Kingdoms forum you can go check out threads I know of at least 2 talking about how since the new book Ogre Kingdoms placed second in the No Holds Barred, won one tournament Open War, and placed second in another tourney the Mansfield tourney. So, it must not be me as you claimed me doing something "massively wrong" it must be a whole lot of people for Ogres to be winning like this. I wonder how well WOC placed in those same tournaments. I'm willing to bet not very high. It's not that OK players are these brilliant Alexander the Great tacticians and everyone else doesn't know how to play. The deal is OK supplanted WOC currently with their new books as far being the kings of melee. Jeremy "midas touch" vetok has struck again. Any army he touchs turns to gold. Hope his hands bless ours.

Yes, we can bring Marauders of Khorne against their thundertusk, and more than likely we will win. Due to steadfast rules big monsters aren’t all that hard to beat although they will suffer very heavy casualty and will of course probably be reduced in number by the leadbelchers firing d6 shot per model with no chance of misfire every round, and twin ironblaster fire or scrap launcher shells. Also, on his iron blasters in addition to moving and shooting he gets to roll twice on the bounce and take the better of the two results. Plus, it can fight in combat if it has too also. Yeah, sorry I like that better than the Hellcannon all around although the HC is tougher in HtH. His Ironblaster is also if I’m correct only around 170 points maybe.

Chaos knights are not equal to Mournfang. Mournfang are the nastiest cavalry in the game right now. Yes, our chaos knights have a 1+ armor save. So what? Who runs them? In addition, to not breaking anything (mournfang cavalry with the mounts get 7 attacks a piece so while they may not break a unit they can do enough damage to tie in combat resolution) they are highly expensive and have a single wound each. There are a number of spells and high strength attacks out there that can kill them easily enough. In my opinion, they are not worth it and I haven’t seen them being ran in any really competitive list.

Additionally, see the same P.S that I asked to Kormak. I'm not being fascicious I'm just generally curious about our portryal in the White Dwarf.

Darkchilde



Edited by DarkChilde, Dec 2 2011, 02:08 PM.
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
DarkChilde
Dec 2 2011, 12:02 PM
Kormak,

I get what you are saying about the command group but since per the rule of make way it states a character can exchange places with any rank and file model in the beginning of close combat (it doesn't list conditions like only if the unit is charged, etc) what these Ogre Kingdoms players are doing is keeping their characters in the second rank, until you engage them in close combat (irregardless of who got the charge off) that way you have to face their over powered characters in combat instead of rank and file although the ranke and file that are in the second rank still get their full attack allotment. Additionally, this is a detriment for WoC since because or "gift" i.,e "The Eye of the Gods" we have no choice but to challenge him in combat.


Yes I am aware what the rule states, I was giving a example, you know what a example is? I am starting to winder so why all this nonesense and it doesn't list this? read the the rule book, it clearly states that the command models must remain in the front rank whenever possible. The makeway rule does not state you ignore this rule, I am also fully aware of what the ogre player is doing, he cannot however use the makeway rule to ignore the command group rules, the makeway rule list doesn list this a exception, I would also point out he doesn't get full attack, supporting attacks are limited to 3 for MI.

EOTG rule is terrible, no one has said it good, why even mention it? I can't think of a single time someone has listed it as a good thing?? sorry I'm lost, are you making some ground breaking discovery here.

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Yes, we do have a template weapon. I am well aware of the Hellcanon Kormak. I have ran one in several games sometimes to success sometimes not. In my opinion, it is highly overcosted and I am aware this issue is a hot debate amongst people. I can say it has usually just been a big point giver to my opponents. Yes, it can fight as a monster and all that but I would rather have a cheaper warmachine like the Bretonian Trebuchet and Ogre Kingdom Iron blaster to field multiple ones for not all that much more than what a single Hellcanon cost (2 Bret Trebuchets are cheaper than a single hellcannon) and hit them multiple times. True other armies templates are not as high a strenghth but they can hit multiple times and combine their artillery with other artillery like cannon fire which can be very devastating as witnessed by the Iron Blaster. Hell come to think of the Iron Blaster can move and shoot (unlike the Hellcannon) and is not all that bad in combat and the point cost on it isn't super ridiculous either.


You are? I am sure you just said we didn't have any, what mean to say is you don't think the hellcannon is cost effective as a template as a S10 rocklobber rather than chaos do not have one. this isn't even a true statement, hellcannons are amazing monsters for the points being unbreakable, in addition to this they are a S10 rocklobber. Like any monster used in small number it will have the risk of being killed early on, thing is against T3 armies is pretty damn amazing and you know what, while people are shooting it with cannons then they are not shooting other targets. Now to compare it to the treb, I can deal with a treb using a 30pts unit, chaos hounds, I cannot deal with a hellcannon with a 30pts in combat.

Also to continue with brets vs WoC, we are in general as a far better army so what if they have a 100pts treb, I have not heard of them rolling over the tournament scene, guess, it doesn't help.

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The run the Mark of Khorne on my Marauders sometimes as well as other units depending on what I want them to do. I think the Mark of Khorne has no problem. Yes, they MIGHT could change it so the bearer never loses frenzy, but then that would also increase the cost of the mark. The mark of Tzeentch I like as is. The mark of Slaanesh I like as is also. It may seem lackluster compared to other marks but I think the cost balances it out and allows you to put it on chaff units (except warhounds) to keep them as cheap as possible and make them immune to certain effects and panic. This is awesome with units like Marauder Horseman who have low leadership (7) and hardly any real durability. I stated from the get go the Mark of Nurgle is very situational, but I'm not sure how to correct it.


You said you need MoT to remain competitive, you have not said you need MoK to remain competitive nor have you mentioned any other mark being required to remain competitive. I am sure you do like MoT as it is, this doesn't change the fact its by far the best mark on chaos warriors and hero characters, that isn't game balance and as stated many times it is not designed for 8th ed. Does the WoC book include a single standard wardsave higher than a 6+? no it doesn't, they all have limits, be it against shooting, mundan weapons or limited to a 6+. Clearly the book isn't designed with a 3+ wardsave on multiple characters in mind nor is it designed with the parrysave in mind.

I am sure you do run MoK on GW marauders, seeing as they cannot have a magical banner why wouldn't you, then again GW marauders with MoK are considered broken because they are just to cheap. The book is badly designed from the very get go, as you have pointed out so many times the EoTG, the marks on several units:

MoK 30pts on a warshrine vs MoT 20pts?? how is that a good sign of game balance? that isn't internal balance really, its a clear sign little thought was put into it. Obviously you must like having a pretty crappy limited book, as a book marks need changing, units need tweaking and some rules just need to go.

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I know you directed the last portion of your post to someone else but about us standing back and saying something is a bit much as you put it I wonder are dark elves doing that? Are skaven doing that? Are the new Ogres doing that? No. So, bugger that. They are loving what they have and we should increase our and promote our army as well.


It doesn't matter what other people are doing, Skaven and dark elf players will be in a big shock when they have their crotches removed ;) If Ogres causing you that much of a issue then I suggest you take lore of death and 3rd eye of Tzeentch.

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P.S. a little off subject but just out of curiosity...as I stated I got into WH in this edition. I just recently started reading White Dwarf. In the last few issues (I'm don't remember the exact issue numbers) when WOC have been featured they have been losing. First, there was an issue when Storm of Magic was released and they did a Battle report with WOC vs Dark Elves and WOC lost. Then they had an issue where the new model Nurgle Champion have a face off against the newer model Saurus Old Blood and gets what? The WOC figure lost and the Lizardman character won, and just recently in the December WD they have a SoM Battle report where DoC and WOC align against OK and O&G which ends in a draw withe the DOC being the army that keeps the chaos players in the game at all. Just wondering when was the last time in WD WOC actually had a battle report and won (and I hope it wasn't against wood elves)/ I mean, it is pretty bad when the magazine of the company that produces the game we play constantly has WOC losing.


I haven't read a battle report in WD for a ages, they have been known as fixes so that people buy the new models but as for you statements, DE vs WoC, I have no information to go on here, why did they loss? was it magic? was the WoC list any good? I generally ignore anything SoM related because I think its the worst expansion to hit warhammer, why the hell what I want to play it, magic is broken enough as it is!

Nurgle champion? what you mean a unit champion? a exalted hero? a chaos lord? what magic items did they have? this doesn't tell me a single thing! I've had a exalted hero on jugger kill character after character in challenges, elven lords on dragon, orc lords (actually had him kill 1 orc warlord and 2 orc heroes in the same battle). I have never seen anyone complain about chaos characters being to weak! they simply are not, they can take on most lord level characters and win. The only issue is the EotG rule and my issue is you spend half the time fighting unit champions rather than what you are designed to fight, combat characters.


As for rankings here are a few for you:

http://www.rankingshq.com/public/tournamentprofile.aspx?TournamentId=2664

WoC 3rd

http://www.rankingshq.com/public/tournamentprofile.aspx?TournamentId=2493

WoC 3rd

http://www.rankingshq.com/public/armyprofile.aspx?ArmyId=18

Edited by Kormak, Dec 2 2011, 06:32 PM.
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DarkChilde
The Chosen
Come on, bro there’s no need to be snarky. I understand you are giving an example, but the player is not ignoring the command group rules. Specific overrides general and in general command models must stay in the front rank whenever possible, but specifically under the section under combined units (units and characters), characters are allowed in close combat to push their way through the to the front ranks and displace command models. What he is doing is perfectly legal and makes his army even stronger as you are now dealing with his amped up characters versus his standard models.

As regards his attacks from the second rank you are correct the attacks are limited to 3, which happens to be the full ogres 9 (besides the champion) get. So, he is getting his full attacks from the second rank.

As regards the Hellcannon you want to split hairs over wording so let me state it clearly for you. I think the Hellcannon is overcosted piece of equipment that does not compensate for it’s point cost either as artillery or as close combat monster (I think that damn Sphinx the TK got is better than the HC) and in fact is an easy target to give points to your opponent in the game, who once they have taken down the HC can use point denial and other tactics for remainder of the game to win since you only have to win by 100 points, which isn’t hard to do when you face an army that is expensive as WoC.

As far as tournaments will I haven’t seen results for armies for 2011 Ard Boyz but last years here in the U.S. went

East Coast
1st: Demons of Chaos
2: Lizardmen
3: Another DOC armie

One of them was running a ton flamers

In Chicago (Battle Bunker)/Midwest
1st: Dark Elves
2. Skaven
3. Empire

In LA it looks like Skaven was 3rd, a dark elf won and dwarven gunline got second.

Ard Boyz is still going on but here is a list of some things I found :

http://companyofthedamned.blogspot.com/2011/05/warhammer-ard-boyz-2011-semi-finals-may.html

This is a blog. The blogger who was at this location states “chaos” is very powerful but noted no WOC or other chaos armies were present because they were removed in the first round of play by Dwarven gunlines (but we don’t need Tzeentch and better ward saves to survive the spam of artillery going on right now?)

In regards to the WD comment. I can’t recall what was being used by the Dark Elves in the Storm of Magic article. It has been about 3-4 issues around when SoM was released. The battle between the chaos character and the Lizardman Old Blood featured the newer model Exalted Hero of Nurgle, you know the guy with the open/festering wounds on his stomach, etc., but whatever you don’t read the WD battle reports so you can’t answer the question so we don’t need to explore this issue any further.

In regards to Skaven and Dark Elves I hope you are right that they do get something taken down, especially Skaven but it absolutely matters what other people are doing and what other armies have. This is the only board where I regularly see people arguing to bring their own army down a level, when the army isn’t even the top dogs. I think the marks are fine. If you want to change them or rather if GW changes them I do hope they give us away to have ward saves lower than 6+ on multiple characters are warmachines, canons and shooting attacks really be eating our asses up before we even get to them. It wouldn’t take much. If I saw someone with more than one warmachine coupled with your idea of what ward saves should be I just wouldn’t play against them period. Just like I refuse to play a game against someone who plays Skaven. These new books came out. Ogres got touched by King Midas, who knows what other armies will be touched by who and how powerful they will become. OK took over the melee arena from us plus have a gunline/artillery build. As dwarves, VCs, and these other books come out WOC will fall lower and lower in tier and playability until we get a new book and then we just have to hope that the new book keeps us competitive. Giving us a 6+ ward save to face off against artillery isn't going to help.

Lastly, the big schtick to our unnamed Lords and Heroes is supposed to be that our wizard’s can wear armor and fight. Big bugging deal. Who cares? The competitive chaos player will run a level 4 wizards, a level 2 chaos sorcerer, and an exalted as a bsb. The characters of the other armies in close combat that I have and that I have seen other WOC armies face have eaten through those characters in close combat. A) Ogre Kingdom characters Slaughermaster with greedy fist, fencer’s blades, etc …you know from the Mansfield list that came in number one and beat WOC will eat through your Sorceror Lord or BSB, Dark Elf lords and heroes have beaten regularly WoC heroes. I have seen a Skaven who faced a chaos player and won because he had some crazy warlord with a sword that did multiple wounds or some crap, while overall Brets maybe a weaker army than ours I have seen Bret characters (lords and heroes ) like a lord on Pegasus stated with proper items defeat our sorcerer lord or exalted in combat, but the OK characters (lords and heroes) are ridiculous.

Darkchilde
Edited by DarkChilde, Dec 4 2011, 02:17 AM.
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
DarkChilde
Dec 4 2011, 02:13 AM
Come on, bro there’s no need to be snarky. I understand you are giving an example, but the player is not ignoring the command group rules. Specific overrides general and in general command models must stay in the front rank whenever possible, but specifically under the section under combined units (units and characters), characters are allowed in close combat to push their way through the to the front ranks and displace command models. What he is doing is perfectly legal and makes his army even stronger as you are now dealing with his amped up characters versus his standard models.


I think it was very called for, nothing is overridden, the rule says nothing of the sort, it says nothing about overriding the command rules, that is your opinion, if it said this in the armybook then indeed the it would be overridden. It also says nothing about pushing through to the front ranks, it simply says they may exchange places with another model, it does not however say he may exchange places with a command model and ignore the rule that states they must remain in the front rank. You can very much argue it either way and in reality needs to be errated.

So yeah you are dealing with a bunch of characters vs a unit, nothing prevents you from doing the same thing with your army either, its just some people think its more viable with ogres than other armies.

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As regards his attacks from the second rank you are correct the attacks are limited to 3, which happens to be the full ogres 9 (besides the champion) get. So, he is getting his full attacks from the second rank.


You know exactly what I was saying, the 3 characters in the back rank are limited to 9 attacks ;) basically you moaning about a unit 3 ogres + 3 characters? seriously? I have seen far worse deathstars than that!

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As regards the Hellcannon you want to split hairs over wording so let me state it clearly for you. I think the Hellcannon is overcosted piece of equipment that does not compensate for it’s point cost either as artillery or as close combat monster (I think that damn Sphinx the TK got is better than the HC) and in fact is an easy target to give points to your opponent in the game, who once they have taken down the HC can use point denial and other tactics for remainder of the game to win since you only have to win by 100 points, which isn’t hard to do when you face an army that is expensive as WoC.


Its interesting you mention the Sphinx, how do you compare the rest of the army to WoC? this really goes back to what I said before, your basically taking singular aspects of a army and not taking into account internal balance. The hellcannon is perfectly fine for its its points. Comparing the Sphinx whats the difference statwise? Hellcannon has more attacks, lower T but has a 5+ wardsave for monster and handlers and 4+ armour save. Sphinx is unstable while the hellcannon is unbreakable so as a combat monster they are reasonable equal however like with the necrosphinx its 20pts more but the hellcannon is also a S(10)5 rocklobber that cause panic tests on anything touched by the template with a additional -1 leadership. This can actually work rather well with Lord of death or lore of Tzeentch.

Its really nothing to do with splitting hairs, its a case of being plain wrong, the sphinox on a side note is actually easier to kill with cannons because of the lack of a wardsave (or crew jumping in the way). Certainly its stomp attack is far better with the template when it hits and it has to exchange all his attacks, in most scenarios its only a 50% change of a hit, if you fail how many wounds are you losing from static combat res.

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This is a blog. The blogger who was at this location states “chaos” is very powerful but noted no WOC or other chaos armies were present because they were removed in the first round of play by Dwarven gunlines (but we don’t need Tzeentch and better ward saves to survive the spam of artillery going on right now?)


Proves nothing, how many chaos lists are we talking about here? what kind of chaos lists, if we are talking about purely infantry based lists and the dwarf player stuck on the back line then yes they will have issues. Then again does ardboyz use scenarios? I read what the guy said about turn 3 vs the dwarf list, he lost the game because he failed some charges on turn 3, so seems like that dwarf list was lucky rather than competitive. The thing with those lists is they are very hit or miss and your don't really need a whole lost of models to get across the table to win, how many chaos warriors does it take to destroy a unit of 10 guys? 4? rolling all that many artillery dice stuff is going to blow up and give away VPs.

Another interesting point is that list wouldn't make through 90% of the comp systems in the uk, as we are talking about competitive play then comp certainly has to be considered.

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In regards to the WD comment. I can’t recall what was being used by the Dark Elves in the Storm of Magic article. It has been about 3-4 issues around when SoM was released. The battle between the chaos character and the Lizardman Old Blood featured the newer model Exalted Hero of Nurgle, you know the guy with the open/festering wounds on his stomach, etc., but whatever you don’t read the WD battle reports so you can’t answer the question so we don’t need to explore this issue any further.


Well you could tell me what items they had so I could tell if it was luck or bad matchup, but just be looking it it must have been a 250pts + lord character vs 180pts hero character, obviously the old blood has a advantage.

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In regards to Skaven and Dark Elves I hope you are right that they do get something taken down, especially Skaven but it absolutely matters what other people are doing and what other armies have. This is the only board where I regularly see people arguing to bring their own army down a level, when the army isn’t even the top dogs.


Well I think VC book will give us a better idea the direction they will take with 8th ed armies, however many people seem to believe all the current 8th ed books are very balanced against each other so I think its a good sign. I think you will find people just want certain things brought inline with other armies, this doesn't mean they want the army made weaker. I personally would like to see chaos warriors buffed slightly more through points and marks and really dislike how 8th ed is buffed a single mark, Chosen never used to be this insane, its simple because of a single item that gives them massive control over the etog chart.

Its like the MoT, when the wrote the current book you could not buy any of the common items in the book, you only had what was printed in the book, none of us liked it and infact most of us wanted a proper wardsave. I guess this was because of how MoT would have interacted with it, its certainly a logical assumption, every other army had access to a 4+ wardsave. The parry was simply a additional +1 armour save so when parry granted a 6+ wardsave clearly the MoT isn't designed with this in mind. Seriously how can anyone say its balanced with the new common items when they didn't exist when they wrote the book? you can't The common items are just a list of items that most books had anyways and was to save repeating items over and over again. The designed principles of 7th are very different to 8th.

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Lastly, the big schtick to our unnamed Lords and Heroes is supposed to be that our wizard’s can wear armor and fight. Big bugging deal. Who cares? The competitive chaos player will run a level 4 wizards, a level 2 chaos sorcerer, and an exalted as a bsb. The characters of the other armies in close combat that I have and that I have seen other WOC armies face have eaten through those characters in close combat. A) Ogre Kingdom characters Slaughermaster with greedy fist, fencer’s blades, etc …you know from the Mansfield list that came in number one and beat WOC will eat through your Sorceror Lord or BSB, Dark Elf lords and heroes have beaten regularly WoC heroes. I have seen a Skaven who faced a chaos player and won because he had some crazy warlord with a sword that did multiple wounds or some crap, while overall Brets maybe a weaker army than ours I have seen Bret characters (lords and heroes ) like a lord on Pegasus stated with proper items defeat our sorcerer lord or exalted in combat, but the OK characters (lords and heroes) are ridiculous.


I am sure they will beat a sorcerer lord in combat, they are not combat character, I can't say I have seen exalted heroes regularly beaten in combat by other combat lords. So what about greedy fist? most of my combat characters have mundane weapons and if he has a fencing blade then he is only S6. My exalted on on jugger would have no problem with that, S7, A5, 1+/4+ save with his trusty charmed shield (and yes he does make it across the table).

As for the skaven player I assume you mean the fellblade which means he rolls every turn on a 1-2 he takes a wound, its 100pts so he won't have a wardsave, a chaos hero is more than able of kill him and what if the chaos hero has a chaos runeshield, armour of damnation, helm of many eye, sword of swift slaying.

Only dreadlord that will kill a chaos combat character has a reverse wardsave, the rest can be dealt with, I really think you don't have enough faith in chaos characters, perhaps you haven't used them enough?
Edited by Kormak, Dec 4 2011, 04:42 AM.
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DarkChilde
The Chosen
Kormak
Dec 4 2011, 02:13 AM
I think it was very called for, nothing is overridden, the rule says nothing of the sort, it says nothing about overriding the command rules, that is your opinion, if it said this in the armybook then indeed the it would be overridden. It also says nothing about pushing through to the front ranks, it simply says they may exchange places with another model, it does not however say he may exchange places with a command model and ignore the rule that states they must remain in the front rank. You can very much argue it either way and in reality needs to be errated.

So yeah you are dealing with a bunch of characters vs a unit, nothing prevents you from doing the same thing with your army either, its just some people think its more viable with ogres than other armies.

Perhaps some clarity should be given on this in a Faq, but I really don’t think so. I really think the rule is pretty clear. On page 92 it states the command models must remain upfront whenever possible unless there is not room for them to fit in which case they go to the second rank. The make way rule under the combined unit section states characters can displace any model up to and including command in the front rank. It just so happens that with ogres being 3 models wide this totally displaces command who will not fit in the formation in which case they are placed in the second rank as indicated by the command group rules on page 92. X must be placed in Y unless X can’t fit into Y in which case X goes into Z. X can’t fit in Y therefore X goes in Z. It seems pretty clear and logical to me. What you are saying can be argued is that X must be placed in Y unless X can't fit into Y in which case X goes in Z. X can't fit into Y therefore X must stay in Y. This isn't logical.

It is more viable with ogres as there characters even their sorcerer characters have more wounds than their standard characters (5 I think is what the slaughter master gets), the same weapon skill, higher toughness, the same or more attacks, coupled with being able to take magic items. Why wouldn’t they put their characters in front once close combat started?

Kormak
Dec 4 2011, 02:13 AM
You know exactly what I was saying, the 3 characters in the back rank are limited to 9 attacks ;) basically you moaning about a unit 3 ogres + 3 characters? seriously? I have seen far worse deathstars than that!


Yes, okay I was messing with you with that rebuttal :) but the Ogrestar has 3 character with full command plus other rank and file in it. Believe me it is a full death star coupled with a gunline comprised on ironblasters and leadbelchers. Again, it is the list that the Ogre Kingdom player won Mansfield with. You can read it on the Ogre Stronghold.

On the point of the Hellcannon Kormak I really disagree, and perhaps the Sphinx was a bad example although not really as even with rank bonus the Tomb Kings Sphinx should do enough wounds to equal or win against most armies in combat resolution. From what I have seen in terms of a monsters WoC really don’t have a big tarpit like monster like the Empire Steam Tank, the Hell Pit Abomination, etc. I’m sure this will be corrected (hopefully) when we get our book, but really I don’t consider the Hellcannon to be in the same league. The fact that it is unbreakable is nice I will not lie about that, but again as artillery piece I would rather have something that can move and shoot and reroll misfires and bounces like ogres and dwarves can do, or as a monster I would just rather have a purely big powerhouse juggernaut capable of taking down hordes like the HPA, the Steam Tank, etc. Again, this the hellcannon from what I can see is a microcosm that represents the larger macrocosm of the problem with WoC not really having a schtick right now that is exclusively ours. Melee and sheer brutality has become the purview of the Ogres, Magic Lizardmen, Dark Elves, and High Elves can claim, Artillery/shooting armies like the dwarves will take, and Chaos can be “represented competitively” we’ll say in two of the three but masters of none.

Kormak
Dec 4 2011, 02:13 AM
Proves nothing, how many chaos lists are we talking about here? what kind of chaos lists, if we are talking about purely infantry based lists and the dwarf player stuck on the back line then yes they will have issues. Then again does ard boyz use scenarios? I read what the guy said about turn 3 vs the dwarf list, he lost the game because he failed some charges on turn 3, so seems like that dwarf list was lucky rather than competitive. The thing with those lists is they are very hit or miss and your don't really need a whole lost of models to get across the table to win, how many chaos warriors does it take to destroy a unit of 10 guys? 4? rolling all that many artillery dice stuff is going to blow up and give away VPs.


It proves a lot. WOC are or at least were a very popular army so a lot of people usually show up in the initial rounds with WoC. The most common list seen at tournaments at least here in the states with WoC are (in no particular order) 1) the chosen star 2) the Throgg block combined with other units and 3) the “Hell totem” combo comprised of twin Hellcannons and a BSB with the Doom Totem standard. Yes, Ard Boyz does use scenarios of different kinds and if you go to the GW website you can download some of the scenarios that have been used. Ard Boyz is like the main event thing here in the States, being newer to Warhammer is this not the case in the U.K? (I’m not being curt I really am curious I think it very interesting the UK perspective/scene vs. what we have here in the States, nor am I claiming one is better I’m just curious.

Kormak
Dec 4 2011, 02:13 AM
Another interesting point is that list wouldn't make through 90% of the comp systems in the uk, as we are talking about competitive play then comp certainly has to be considered.


Well, I have no doubt if you cripple the other armies in the game WOC will do very well and rank number 3 as they have in Europe. Here in the U.S. the only real comp I have seen are that a lot of tournaments have a rule where you are not allowed to have special or named characters in your army i.e, no Teclis, no Wulfrik, etc, but other than that any thing is open, and even with that a lot of tournaments have started to move away from even banning special/named characters, and even at our most “broken” the Chosenstar our Chosen star will not take a Skaven player, it will not take a grave guard bunker comprised of it’s special character, etc. A Teclis list can wreak havoc on it. At 2000 points a the twin Hydra list of the Dark Elves have wreaked havoc on Chaos and other armies. I mean even when we are “broken” we are still not top dog, and as far the twin Hell Cannon list that people love I think it is stupid, not because it is overly competitive but because it is largely unreliable. Unlike dwarves you can’t reroll misfires and you can’t spam artillery so you are relying on the two shots you get from the Hellcannon to hit (hopefully on the unit you cast Doom and Darkness on), assuming the cannons made the leadership test and can shoot in the first place, then you are relying on the target having to fail a panic test, and also what happens when you run up against armies like Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts, Demons, and even a WOC army that are either ITP or resistant to panic? Comping is not a big thing here in the States we run the books as written. Why did the designers write something if they didn’t want you to use it? Also, and again purely curious who decides what gets comped? I mean, if I were in c harge of a tourney I would comp the Skaven Warp lightning cannons first thing.

Kormak
Dec 4 2011, 02:13 AM
Well I think VC book will give us a better idea the direction they will take with 8th ed armies, however many people seem to believe all the current 8th ed books are very balanced against each other so I think its a good sign. I think you will find people just want certain things brought inline with other armies, this doesn't mean they want the army made weaker. I personally would like to see chaos warriors buffed slightly more through points and marks and really dislike how 8th ed is buffed a single mark, Chosen never used to be this insane, its simple because of a single item that gives them massive control over the etog chart.

If you buffed our warriors even more what would make our Chosen so special and would you bring the Chosen down in cost? Being able to bump something up or down one on the EotG table I don’t consider massive control. It is very good yes, but I don’t think it is massive especially since the average roll of 7 is designed to screw you over in the first place. Also, what would you do to buff the warriors and keep the cost from being exorbant which is something we struggle with as an army now with the exception of hounds and marauders?

On the Tzeentch mark again, I don’t know about prior editions so I will not comment on it, but having a 5+ parry/ ward save in close combat I don’t consider that ridiculous, especially as we are supposed to be the so called kings of close combat but don’t get all the stuff the Ogres get (stomps, 3 attacks, multiple wounds, which is the huge part, etc), especially with artillery the way it is and people spamming gunlines (including Ogres now) against us left and right. If this changes and with gunlines growing I can’t see WOC being competitive at all it would basically be an army people played purely for the fluff aspects, which might make some people happy but it probably would make a lot of people not happy also. Also, the as regards the new books, I do think Tomb Kings is fairly balanced, Orcs and Goblins I really haven’t faced them all that much but they seem okay also. Ogres I don’t consider to be balanced. It depends on who writes the new books as to how balanced they are and while I don’t know for certain I suspect it has always been this way throughout the editions. Alls I can say is I hope Vetok or some other writer/designer who is know to boost up armies gets to write ours and this is not a troll attempt or something I feel ashamed somehow to admit.

Kormak
Dec 4 2011, 02:13 AM
Only dreadlord that will kill a chaos combat character has a reverse wardsave, the rest can be dealt with, I really think you don't have enough faith in chaos characters, perhaps you haven't used them enough?

No, brother I have faith in chaos characters. I just understand the comprisal of the game. I have no doubt a WoC combat character can do okay in close combat, but like I said most list from a competition standpoint of all armies not just WOC you start with your level 4 caster, then your level 2 caster and build the rest of the army from there. If I take a combat character with the exception of the BSB, which I feel is mandatory and keep tucked away in the second rank of a combat unit (usually a chosen star) so he can’t be targeted in combat, and if I give my lord or wizards the things they need like the Infernal Puppet and Dispel scroll where do I really have space or points left at 2000-2500 points which is what most tournaments are played at to fit in another combat character without deeply sacrificing something else if I can even fit them in at all with the cost of our characters? No, I understand what our characters can do but the Ogre level 4 technically speaking isn’t a combat character either it just gets impact hits, 3+ attacks, multiple wounds, and stomp plus magic items compared to our wizard who gets to wear armor.


Edited by DarkChilde, Dec 4 2011, 08:40 AM.
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Kormak
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DarkChilde
Dec 4 2011, 07:41 AM
Perhaps some clarity should be given on this in a Faq, but I really don’t think so. I really think the rule is pretty clear. On page 92 it states the command models must remain upfront whenever possible unless there is not room for them to fit in which case they go to the second rank. The make way rule under the combined unit section states characters can displace any model up to and including command in the front rank. It just so happens that with ogres being 3 models wide this totally displaces command who will not fit in the formation in which case they are placed in the second rank as indicated by the command group rules on page 92. X must be placed in Y unless X can’t fit into Y in which case X goes into Z. X can’t fit in Y therefore X goes in Z. It seems pretty clear and logical to me. What you are saying can be argued is that X must be placed in Y unless X can't fit into Y in which case X goes in Z. X can't fit into Y therefore X must stay in Y. This isn't logical.

It is more viable with ogres as there characters even their sorcerer characters have more wounds than their standard characters (5 I think is what the slaughter master gets), the same weapon skill, higher toughness, the same or more attacks, coupled with being able to take magic items. Why wouldn’t they put their characters in front once close combat started?


Displacing a model with a combat character is a optional rule, having your command models in the front rank is a mandatory rule, the only time it is not possible is when your front rank is smaller than the number of command models in the unit. Basically, it is possible for the command model to stay in the front rank of combat but you do not have to displace a model because you do not have to make a makeway move.

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Yes, okay I was messing with you with that rebuttal :) but the Ogrestar has 3 character with full command plus other rank and file in it. Believe me it is a full death star coupled with a gunline comprised on ironblasters and leadbelchers. Again, it is the list that the Ogre Kingdom player won Mansfield with. You can read it on the Ogre Stronghold.


I have seen far more impressive ogre deathstars with more characters with the old book, I believe the one I face had 5 characters and 4 ogres, one character was stupid to make the unit IP.

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On the point of the Hellcannon Kormak I really disagree, and perhaps the Sphinx was a bad example although not really as even with rank bonus the Tomb Kings Sphinx should do enough wounds to equal or win against most armies in combat resolution. From what I have seen in terms of a monsters WoC really don’t have a big tarpit like monster like the Empire Steam Tank, the Hell Pit Abomination, etc. I’m sure this will be corrected (hopefully) when we get our book, but really I don’t consider the Hellcannon to be in the same league. The fact that it is unbreakable is nice I will not lie about that, but again as artillery piece I would rather have something that can move and shoot and reroll misfires and bounces like ogres and dwarves can do, or as a monster I would just rather have a purely big powerhouse juggernaut capable of taking down hordes like the HPA, the Steam Tank, etc. Again, this the hellcannon from what I can see is a microcosm that represents the larger macrocosm of the problem with WoC not really having a schtick right now that is exclusively ours. Melee and sheer brutality has become the purview of the Ogres, Magic Lizardmen, Dark Elves, and High Elves can claim, Artillery/shooting armies like the dwarves will take, and Chaos can be “represented competitively” we’ll say in two of the three but masters of none.



Well its debatable as to how good a Hellcannon is as a tarpit, it is still T6, it has a basic armour save, it has a wardsave, its unbreakable and still provides decent combat stats. Hellpits are certainly a nasty unit but with the invention of the a flaming banner Khorne warriors with halberds are very easy to deal with, the STanks T10 is certainly a issue but you can now atleast use magic that doesn't have a strength value to take it out, you also have the option for combat, auto hitting with 24+ attacks is going to take it down, even with rolling 6's to wound, monsters in general are weak this edition because of cannons, even the T8 ones.

The sphinox might do enough wounds to win combats, it depends if you use the normal stomp or the special one and it actually has to make it across the table, yes its T8 but it has form of protection, what is also interesting is that a Giant or shaggoth is actually very capable of taking it down.

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It proves a lot. WOC are or at least were a very popular army so a lot of people usually show up in the initial rounds with WoC. The most common list seen at tournaments at least here in the states with WoC are (in no particular order) 1) the chosen star 2) the Throgg block combined with other units and 3) the “Hell totem” combo comprised of twin Hellcannons and a BSB with the Doom Totem standard. Yes, Ard Boyz does use scenarios of different kinds and if you go to the GW website you can download some of the scenarios that have been used. Ard Boyz is like the main event thing here in the States, being newer to Warhammer is this not the case in the U.K? (I’m not being curt I really am curious I think it very interesting the UK perspective/scene vs. what we have here in the States, nor am I claiming one is better I’m just curious.


It proves nothing, I have information on what the WoC armies faced, if the players had a bad day or got put played, you have just said bunch of WoC went out. I have played plenty of dwarf armies in my time, I usually hate it because they are gunlines, I usually beat them as well, so really if someone tells me a bunch of dwarfs knocked out some WoC players I can only assume it was luck or bad lists.

In the UK we have lots of large tournaments every month, most have some sort of comp such a this

http://www.spikyclub.com/e107/e107_files/public/winter_war_2012_rules_pack_final.pdf

some have softer comps, some have none such as the GW run ones (throne of skulls),I have heard about ard boyz and I think the problem is the points level, 3k I believe, really I think 2400-2500pts is the best points level to play warhamer at.


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Well, I have no doubt if you cripple the other armies in the game WOC will do very well and rank number 3 as they have in Europe. Here in the U.S. the only real comp I have seen are that a lot of tournaments have a rule where you are not allowed to have special or named characters in your army i.e, no Teclis, no Wulfrik, etc, but other than that any thing is open, and even with that a lot of tournaments have started to move away from even banning special/named characters, and even at our most “broken” the Chosenstar our Chosen star will not take a Skaven player, it will not take a grave guard bunker comprised of it’s special character, etc. A Teclis list can wreak havoc on it. At 2000 points a the twin Hydra list of the Dark Elves have wreaked havoc on Chaos and other armies. I mean even when we are “broken” we are still not top dog, and as far the twin Hell Cannon list that people love I think it is stupid, not because it is overly competitive but because it is largely unreliable. Unlike dwarves you can’t reroll misfires and you can’t spam artillery so you are relying on the two shots you get from the Hellcannon to hit (hopefully on the unit you cast Doom and Darkness on), assuming the cannons made the leadership test and can shoot in the first place, then you are relying on the target having to fail a panic test, and also what happens when you run up against armies like Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts, Demons, and even a WOC army that are either ITP or resistant to panic? Comping is not a big thing here in the States we run the books as written. Why did the designers write something if they didn’t want you to use it? Also, and again purely curious who decides what gets comped? I mean, if I were in c harge of a tourney I would comp the Skaven Warp lightning cannons first thing.


Yes thats it, comp is designed to cripple armies! wait no, the idea is to bring down over powered armies like skaven, Lizardmen, de so they are more inline with other armies.


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If you buffed our warriors even more what would make our Chosen so special and would you bring the Chosen down in cost? Being able to bump something up or down one on the EotG table I don’t consider massive control. It is very good yes, but I don’t think it is massive especially since the average roll of 7 is designed to screw you over in the first place. Also, what would you do to buff the warriors and keep the cost from being exorbant which is something we struggle with as an army now with the exception of hounds and marauders?


Yes I would bring them down, I wouldn't be surprised if stuff came down in points in the new book, every time GW release a new book, loads of stuff comes down in points so you have to buy new models. You would have a good point on the & roll if chosen couldn't reroll it ;)

I have lots of ideas of what I would do with chaos warriors, at one point I had thought making them I4, lowering the points slightly and buffing the marks. I would like to see people have a reason to use something other than HW+SH with MoT or MoK and halberd.

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On the Tzeentch mark again, I don’t know about prior editions so I will not comment on it, but having a 5+ parry/ ward save in close combat I don’t consider that ridiculous


You have been told several times, you can continue to say you think its fine but it does not change the fact the book was not written with the kind of buff in mind. How can something be balanced is the rules and options it can use are changed years after their creation. The book is a 7th ed book, not a 8th ed book, it really is that simple.

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No, brother I have faith in chaos characters. I just understand the comprisal of the game. I have no doubt a WoC combat character can do okay in close combat, but like I said most list from a competition standpoint of all armies not just WOC you start with your level 4 caster, then your level 2 caster and build the rest of the army from there.


Actually that isn't what you said, you actually said WoC characters suffer against other combat characters, I don't see why you would mention wizards as suffering, they are not combat characters, they are wizards! Wizards generally do not fight well, chaos ones are better than most because of the increased WS, access to magical shields and more attacks. No they are not amazing but how many sorcerers do you see with a 2+ save and 4+ wardsave, you can fit this in with puppet as well and a ogre wizard is not going to stomp over them.
Edited by Kormak, Dec 4 2011, 09:39 AM.
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DarkSchneider
Clanlord
Guys, you're really ruining this topic.....if you want to have a 1on1 confrontation, please do it via pm.
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DarkChilde
The Chosen
DarkSchneider
Dec 4 2011, 09:05 AM
Guys, you're really ruining this topic.....if you want to have a 1on1 confrontation, please do it via pm.
We are not having a confrontation. We are having a discussion and from what I can see it has been civil on both sides. I have no problem with kormak and think his views are interesting even if I disagree with him on some points.
Edited by DarkChilde, Dec 4 2011, 02:11 PM.
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Terriss
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The Chosen
I am really excited for new Dragon Ogre models...they just looks so...cartoony...
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DarkChilde
The Chosen
Kormak,

I get what you are saying but you are misinterpreting the rules. Per page 11 basic rules exist but then advanced rules can override them. Command models having to stay in the front rank is the standard rule. The make way as it applies to characters is a specific rule that negates it. Follow the train of logic as detailed in my previous post. If this has really created this much confusion however then a clarity should be given in a faq.

Did the more impressive Ogrestars you faced in the past also include ogre cavalry that get impact hits, stomps,have multiwounds and get seven attacks a piece with riders included? Did the ogrestar you faced in the past have 2 move and shoot canons coming at you? Did the ogrestar you faced in the past have lead belchers firing d6 shot per man with no chance of misfire?

The players in the tournaments (Ard Boyz) weren’t just playing against dwarf players, honestly dwarves are not a super popular army here in the states. Yes, you will have someone playing them in just about every tournament or league, but they are not as popular as other armies (Skaven). From the 2010 Ard boyz it looks like there were 12 total WoC armies present. They got knocked out for the final 3 rounds of play but made it that far. It doesn’t say what their list were or give a battle rep of each battle they faced but I find it hard to believe that all 12 WoC armies had bad list and bad generals. Sure, luck is always involved that is a part of the game, but so is army strength and as it stands WoC could use a update and power boost especially in light of the Ogres boost as the new melee kings, and it not just in Europe at the manfield while the full 2011 Ard boyz results are not in I do know OK players have won Ard boyz tourneys at local game shops this year so far.

As regards the comp rules in Europe I read the tournament rules given for the Spikey Club. In general, I can’t really comment as I try not to criticize other peoples culture. Who am I to judge how the U.K. handles their WH tournaments especially considering it is a UK based game, but I do have to say I think if comp has to be done to make WOC effective that shows a lot. Personally, I prefer to play the rules as written and if something needs to be changed or balanced then the designers should officially errata it. If GW tournaments are rules as written then in my opinion other tourneys should follow suite, but I will digress as again it is not my culture so I will not judge it good or bad just different.

I think some of your points on correcting Chosen (bring them down a few points) and correcting the Chaos warriors are interesting, but on the Mark of Tzeentch you can’t simply say that because this rule was written in a previous edition it is totally negligible or not intended for 8th edition rules. That is throwing the baby out with the bath water so to speak. Did they not have parry saves as a ward save in 7th? If they did then they knew a parry save would be effected by Tzeentch improving ward saves.

On chaos wizards, again I get they are not combat characters however due to competitive list being built around casters and the EOTG rule our wizards do end up in combat, and when they do there is a good chance they die especially if they are facing another armie;s characters like the ogre wizard.

At this point, though I think we must just disagree. I will end by saying in my opinion as seen by tourney results here, where we don't comp the armies but play them as is, WOC are an army that is hurting. They are hurting from an outdated book and a lack of specific niche that they can really call themselves the masters of. Ogre Kingdoms have emerged as a broken and unbalanced army and I hope that in the future WoC will be given the same treatment as the new Ogres.

Darkchilde
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Kormak
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DarkChilde
Dec 4 2011, 05:08 PM
Kormak,

I get what you are saying but you are misinterpreting the rules. Per page 11 basic rules exist but then advanced rules can override them. Command models having to stay in the front rank is the standard rule. The make way as it applies to characters is a specific rule that negates it. Follow the train of logic as detailed in my previous post. If this has really created this much confusion however then a clarity should be given in a faq.


Basic vs advanced rules is applied here as command groups are not standard rules, everything listed after panic are advanced rules.

Quote:
 
Did the more impressive Ogrestars you faced in the past also include ogre cavalry that get impact hits, stomps,have multiwounds and get seven attacks a piece with riders included? Did the ogrestar you faced in the past have 2 move and shoot canons coming at you? Did the ogrestar you faced in the past have lead belchers firing d6 shot per man with no chance of misfire?


This was with the old book and I said the deathstar was more impressive, you are talking about army not a single unit. Lead belchers are not impressive as they hit on a 5+ as they still suffer mods for cover, range and MoN, I tend to use my chaos hounds as moving cover and with the limited shooting they have to wast shooting or magic on them. Even a unit of 6 will on average on score:

21shoots -> 7hits -> 3.5wounds -> 2.33 dead

Guess what, its not game breaking!

Ogre Cavalry are certainly impressive but we have several units very capble of dealing with them, be it dragon ogres, chaos knights, chaos trolls, Khorne marauders or even chaos warriors with halberds and MoK/frenzy. Having 7 attacks a model doesn't matter if you die before you attack. If its a unit of 6 with great weapons and heavy armour then you are looking at nearly 500pts unit and a unit of 6 is the only thing thats going to stand up to my knights with hero.

Quote:
 
The players in the tournaments (Ard Boyz) weren’t just playing against dwarf players, honestly dwarves are not a super popular army here in the states. Yes, you will have someone playing them in just about every tournament or league, but they are not as popular as other armies (Skaven). From the 2010 Ard boyz it looks like there were 12 total WoC armies present. They got knocked out for the final 3 rounds of play but made it that far. It doesn’t say what their list were or give a battle rep of each battle they faced but I find it hard to believe that all 12 WoC armies had bad list and bad generals. Sure, luck is always involved that is a part of the game, but so is army strength and as it stands WoC could use a update and power boost especially in light of the Ogres boost as the new melee kings, and it not just in Europe at the manfield while the full 2011 Ard boyz results are not in I do know OK players have won Ard boyz tourneys at local game shops this year so far.


You said a bunch of chaos players got knocked out by dwarfs, now you changing your story, I have no data to go on, you know I've lost my fair share of games and against all but skaven it has been down to unlucky dice rolls or being abit drunk at the time time and doing silly things. Fact is if you doing well with a WoC army all you need to do is play a lizardmen or skaven list and that can knock you out of a tournament. That has nothing to do with the WoC book but those two books simply are not designed for 8th and certain abilities they have are just amazing. Dreaded 13th was so bad in 7th because you didn't have you magic level added to your casting roll.

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As regards the comp rules in Europe I read the tournament rules given for the Spikey Club.


The rules pack they made is based on the SCGT rule pack which is basically one of the big events, without using the pack I don't think you can comment on how it effects WoC.

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I think some of your points on correcting Chosen (bring them down a few points) and correcting the Chaos warriors are interesting, but on the Mark of Tzeentch you can’t simply say that because this rule was written in a previous edition it is totally negligible or not intended for 8th edition rules. That is throwing the baby out with the bath water so to speak. Did they not have parry saves as a ward save in 7th? If they did then they knew a parry save would be effected by Tzeentch improving ward saves.


The Parry save in 7th was a additional +1 armour save so chaos warriors had a 2+ save, it was changed because in the previous edition it made HW+SH the best weapon choice. Of course I can say it isn't designed for this edition, it isn't, they will get a new book like they do every edition which is designed with 8th in mind. Just look at how they changed TK! compare the skeletons in the TK book to VC and I think you will see the kind of massive changes you can expect from books in the new edition

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On chaos wizards, again I get they are not combat characters however due to competitive list being built around casters and the EOTG rule our wizards do end up in combat, and when they do there is a good chance they die especially if they are facing another armie;s characters like the ogre wizard.


EOTG rules is terrible! I will be the first one to scream about it, we didn't have that with the previous book and I don't think Phil Kelly thought it out very well. As I said if you decide to take a wardsave and a enchanted shield you have a much better chance in combat against ogre wizards, with my Tzeentch list I actually use:

Sorcerer lord
MoT
Talisman of endurance
sword of anti-heroes
Charmed shield
Infernal Puppet

So butcher with GW (I assume thats what people give them)

A3 -> 1.5 hits (one lost because of charmed shield) ->0.41 wounds -> 0.34 after saves -> 0.17 after ward

Sorcerer

A3-> 2hits -> 1.33 wounds

This isn't taking to account that I usually put mine with banner of rage warriors or if the enemy unit has more characters, against your standard deathstar my sorcerer would have A6, S7 with a 3+ save and a 4+ wardsave. Sword of anti-heroes is always a funny item, people just don't expect it on sorcerers:)
Edited by Kormak, Dec 4 2011, 09:53 PM.
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The Chosen
I'll chime in and add my 2 cents to the discussion, but do not plan on arguing it any further if Kormak still doesn't agree. Fact is, most if not all tournament scenes, afaik, agree that the Ogre command group can Make Way! to the first rank...

There are two rules that have to be taken into consideration here, the 'Placement inside unit" rule on page 97 (can't remember the exact name, sorry) and the 'Make Way!' (which I'll refer to as MW!) on page 100.

The first says characters have to be in the 1st rank, displacing any model already there except for command which has to remain.

Thus, rule 1 says :
- Characters go in 1st rank
- Command has priority over characters

MW! then says characters can swap their position with any model, and then specifically mention that command models can be swapped to. The MW! rule then goes on to mention that characters can MW! to other ranks, not just the first.

Thus, MW! clearly breaks the 'Placement inside units' rule by stating that :
- Characters can leave the first rank

I won't claim that MW! clearly sais that command models can be moved back, however, considering that MW! already breaks the one rule that would prevent said command to be moved back, I think the point is moot. In addition, MW! DOES specify that the model can be swapped with any command group model, and mentions no exception (the wording is "including command models", not "including command models, unless the character is not in the first rank").

Anyway, as was already said, this most likely would require a FAQ, as it can be argued both ways...
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
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Dec 4 2011, 10:31 PM
MW! then says characters can swap their position with any model, and then specifically mention that command models can be swapped to. The MW! rule then goes on to mention that characters can MW! to other ranks, not just the first.
Your right it does say they can swap position with any model in the unit however the command models rules state they must remain in the front rank, the position in a unit rule does not state they must always remain in the front rank whenever possible, it actually states they may in other ranks (ie the 2nd).


So it isn't actually breaking anything.
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