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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 23 2011, 10:29 PM (2,297 Views) | |
| DarkChilde | Dec 5 2011, 02:07 AM Post #91 |
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The Chosen
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Kormak, Well, I’m glad the issue of Ogres putting all the characters in the front rank has been settled like I said when reading the rules it was pretty clear to me and I had never seen any referee or player argue otherwise in competitive play. I disagree on t he mournfang cavalry being easy to deal with. I have defeated them with a block of 50 (5 wide for rank bonus) with flails and Mark of Khorne, but casualties were substantive and those heavy casualties cost that unit to lose a combat later in the game. I don’t think mournfang would be a problem for chaos knights and also who is really running chaos knights these days? If you are running chaos knights what are you leaving out of your list? A hellcannon or what because the unit is so expensive it really doesn’t make sense to run them currently? Also, a lot stuff you have mentioned seems to be assuming the player knows they are going against Ogres so is catering a list to them. In competitions you might be able to change your spell lore (if you aren’t marked) between games (in some competitions) but you don’t know the enemy you will be facing, the scenario, etc so it’s best to make an all comers list and in an all comers list I just don’t see Chaos Knights making it. Regarding the WOC players being defeated, they were knocked out of the final rounds. Some by Dwarven gunlines as well as Dreaded 13th and other things, but gunlines from all armies played apart. Look man, over here in the States we don’t have as regimented and detailed tournament findings as you have in Europe, especially for Warhammer Fantasy Battles as over here (I don’t know about the U.K) Warhammer 40K is much more popular, and you will find more detailed results on it just because of the sheer number of people that play it. The results over here even for ‘Ard Boyz comes from the community of gamers i.,e people letting people know at game shops what is going on and via the internet message boards, and even with those the actual player boards are much better for results than the GW boards because the GW boards other than for the Final results will list only the names of the winning player sand their locations. It will not mention the name of their armies or give you an army list. You have to rely on the community for those details. Here: http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/fb-armies/202819-2010-ard-boyz-results-what-means-tiers.html is a link to a popular player community that has more information (although incomplete I have more information that what was told here in some regards) on the 2010 Ard Boyz, like I said we are still awaiting final results for this year, and last year it looks like 12 WOC armies were in it (which is what I said originally), but didn’t make it. It does not give list details of what they were running, but what I can tell you is that the list that I all ready mentioned are the most popular list for WOC at tournaments i.e, chosenstar with twin warshrines and Favor of the Gods, Helltotem (twin Hellcannon and Doom totem sporting BSB), and Throgg block. Very rarely you will see a WOC player come in and try to run an MSU unit. Again, are all 12 players unlucky? Did all 12 players just have bad dice rolls? Did all 12 players just have bad army list? Are the armies that won just due to the fact that they were lead by generals with the military genius of Alexander the Great? I don’t’ think so. The reason is because when the other armies are not handicapped as they evidently are in the U.K. even at it’s most broken builds WOC can not compete at the final tiers with other armies. Also, while not all results are in it is not just in Europe the new Ogre Kingdoms has allowed the army to start winning tourneys (beating WOC), but I know from results down in Georgia that Ogre Kingdoms have won Ard Boyz at shops down there. I wouldn’t be surprised if OK came in high this year at least over WOC in Ard Boyz. As far as commenting on the Spikey Club rules package like I said it’s not my culture and WOC probably due well with other armies being handicapped. I can comment on some things because I know the rules and how they affect my army and others. For one thing, I will say the part about Infernal Gateway being changed blows chunks. Why worry about changing a spell that works the way you want it to less than 10% of the time. So, in this tourney it an 11 or 12 is rolled it just wounds, but what if the number of hits was only a 2 are they going to compensate for that. The spell has the intention of stopping a unit even at it’s best under this rule no unit will be affected by this spell except for possibly small cavalry units. This reminds of the spell that we have in SoM Invisible Fires of Tzeentch. It does 3d6 strength 2d6 hits and if 11 or 12 is rolled for the strength then no wounds automatically with no armor saves allowed, but armor saves aren’t allowed on 11-12 anyway so what is the point, and this is a Cataclysm spell. Compare that tot the Bretonnian cataclysm spell that turns all enemy characters into frogs or some crap like that. You couple this with the fact that WOC have to deal with the Wrath of Khorne when we play SoM and we get screwed in that setting. It’s to the point where I almost agree with a comment someone made in another thread wondering if WOC wasn’t army designed to bring you into the game and then when you see what all these other armies can do artillery gunlines, skaven, etc it makes you want to go out and drop a bunch of money on another army. In other words did GW design WOC to be a bait and trap army? I don’t’ really think this but bugger stop screwing us over. You and I are in absolute agreement over EoTG not being very well thought out. As far as your sorcerer lord looks pretty solid and close to what I run, but what Ogre Kingdoms have been running on their lord is the same list that was at Mansfield that won and other tournaments. Slaughter master with fencers blades and greedy fist. So guess what? As soon as he hits, not wounds but hits, and he will hit several times as he has WS 10 and multiattacks that magic sword you have will be gone and you will lose a wizard level for each hit. Yeah, Jeremy “King Midas” V needs to gets his hands on our book. Darkchilde |
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| Terriss | Dec 5 2011, 03:01 AM Post #92 |
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The Chosen
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I really do hope that Warriors wasn't just a bait and trap army, I really don't. But, I don't think Storm of Magic is really the place to compare us to anyone. Warriors are one of the worst armies for Storm, I don't care what anyone says. I can't speak for the new Ogre Kingdoms, as I've not seen the book or really even read their cataclysm spells; but I look at what we get and don't really see much. Tzeentch does just heavy damage, Nurgle lowers armour and brings in a Daemon Prince (oh boy!). Slaanesh seems to be the best, but if you're taking the worst lore for the best Cataclysm spells, is it really worth it? Plus, Khorne just bitch slaps you in the face. It also goes with out saying that our Spell Casters are overpriced. I know the logic behind it, but still. I've struggled to take a lord and two casting heroes in a decent sized Storm game, where a buddy of mine running Dark Elves takes a veritable army of sorceresses. I think Storm is meant as much for competitive play as we think. In my oppinion, Storm is meant for casual play, for having a few drinks and laughing at a game that goes every which way but forward. Sure, Storm tourneys are fun, I've played in a few, but those are based far more on luck than anything else that I've seen. |
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| Kormak | Dec 5 2011, 03:22 AM Post #93 |
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High Executioner of Khorne
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Did you actually read the post you gave a link to, here is what it also says:
I don't read anything that supports what your saying, I haven't meet a single person who thinks WoC are a weak army either, they only problem they really have is skaven spamming the dreaded 13th! Lizardmen can also be a real a pain but that isn't like its a problem exclusive to WoC. You are bringing up these tournaments as proof of why WoC are a weak army, my own personal experience says otherwise combined with what I have read on the internet. As for your point on mournfang, they are a good unit but I do not see them as a issue for a WoC army, anything I have mentioned I have used well before the creation of the current book. I actually very often use a unit of 8 Chaos knights with a jugger rider, while its a rule of cool unit it still have a use and I tend to use it over chosen (I use chosen in my Mono Tzeentch list). The whole strength of such a unit is abusing the base size of the exalted and always issuing challenges to deny attacks against the unit or forcing attacks against him (damn handy against SM thanks to I6). Chaos players are screwed over every single book for one reason or another, this book screwed over all the fluffy players and combined army players, next book will more than likely screw over the people who use chosen deathstars unless they create a new plastic unit. Thing is while a character is aiming attacks at your sorcerer he isn't going to be generating much static combat res, so yeah you might lose you wizard level but all your really need to do is do enough wounds to win combat, with high I and high strength attacks you should be able to do enough to win combat, remember, 2nd round should see some characters finished off. |
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| Judgex83 | Dec 5 2011, 03:26 AM Post #94 |
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The leech lord
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Darkchilde I actually run 2 units of 5 knights both with full command and mark of nurgle because they are still a unit that brings dread if you dont have something to deal with them. A unit of knights slamming into the side of a unit while a unit of warriors was charging the front of a unit has won me many battles. Im not at all getting involved in you and kormaks debate i just felt like tossing it out there that I still run knights lol |
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| DarkChilde | Dec 5 2011, 03:42 AM Post #95 |
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The Chosen
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Kormak, Yes, I read the post I linked to you hence the reason I linked it. Yes, I see where he says what surprised him was WOC not making. Perception is reality until proven otherwise. People perceived WOC as strong but the proof is in the end result of the damn tournament. What are not seeing in this? And, again I’m sure WOC are doing well in comped tournaments, but the results of Ard Boyz and tourneys here say otherwise. You do also realize this was written before the new OK army book was releaased. I would say now, WOC are maybe at the midtier with Ogre Kingdoms coming into the top. I really don’t see how your knights are getting across the board. You must be facing opponents that have no good sense of target selection when playing. Are they not hitting your unit with spells that ignore armor saves or makes their good armor work against them? I have found lore of metal can be devastating against WOC including knights. Are they not also placing as much terrain as possible out there to force dangerous terrain test? I certainly hope the next book doesn’t screw over players using Chosenstars as that is all we got and even it isn’t carrying us through as top dogs or even top 3 in the tournament scene, at least not here in the U.S where we use the rules as written and pretty much allow anything as long as it is an official GW rule and model. That is true he will not be attacking the rest of my unit in a challenge, but on WS10 he is going to hit at least twice on average meaning my level 4 is now a level 2 wizard and if it was my level 2 he is done. Darkchilde. Edited by DarkChilde, Dec 5 2011, 03:46 AM.
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| DarkChilde | Dec 5 2011, 03:57 AM Post #96 |
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The Chosen
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Terris, Yes, I hope our army wasn't a bait and trap army either, but the more I learn about the game and see what the other armies are doing and how the game is set up and looking at U.S tournament results, where we follow the GW rules as written so pretty much we keep the army books as they are, I am beginning to have my suspicions. I will agree that in SoM I too think Slaanesh is overall the best lore for us as it has the spell that allows us to fully control another unit, but like you said is that really that much better than taking the core lores and using their cataclysm spells, plus the whole Khorne blasting your caster thing. Again, it like the designers said "Here is WOC, let's see how we can have a laugh and mess with them in this game." It's like WOC is highly recommended to people who start WH then we they discover the autowin buttons and specializations that exist in other armies they move on which in turn gives more money to GW. Look at it; Melee and sheer brutality Ogre Kingdoms, Magic: High Elves, Dark Elves, Lizardmen, Atillery/shooting: Dwarves and Dark Elves, Cavalry/movement control: Brets, Ogres. WOC are present and decent in almost all of these, but being decent in everything without a schtick means overall you are going to get beat at it, plus even for sheer versality as a strength and being able to cater specifically to your opponent I would say that strength resides more within Empire than WOC so even on that front we get shunted. A new book will hopefully correct some of these (if indeed GW doesn't want us to be a bait and trap army). The problem is we got to wait until 2012 and a slew of other books to come out and cause us to slip further and further down in the tiers and competitivenss until is fixed. A year is long time, especially if an army isn't doing well. Darkchilde. |
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| Kormak | Dec 5 2011, 04:21 AM Post #97 |
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High Executioner of Khorne
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DarkChilde, You have taken one event out of context, alot of people perceive WoC as a strong army, I guess they must all be wrong! I seriously have meet anyone who has turned round and said "WoC are a weak army". Not a single person! The results of the ard boyz say nothing, we have no information on why the WoC went out, no information on lists used, not a single thing, we just have some very isolated information. Never even said it was a competitive choice, I would think rule of cool says something ;) from my experience the most common lores are shadow, death, life and usually a low level with a fireball for regen monsters/units. Only times I have face a lore of metal sorcerer has been on a lvl1/2 vs my lvl4. So no, I haven't had my knights annihilated by lore of metal, it just isn't that common, frankly, lore of shadow is far better just for the base spell. Which armies even have lore of metal? Empire, dark elves (usually use shadow), HE (usually use life or shadow), Lizardmen (again its usually life), DoC (can't say I haven't come across a army that uses metal). Most tournaments have pre-setup terrain so that isn't really the case, you turn up, your given a table and you leave it as is, if you move anything you are instructed to put it back (like moving forests). I'm afraid it will screw over chosen deathstar players, new books are designed to get people spending, you already you chosen, they are going to want you buying something else like dragon ogres, I expect dragons ogres and shaggoths will get a nice buff (especially with new plastic dragon ogres). Forsaken will no doubt get a massive buff as well considering they will be a plastic kit. Its all about the VP's at the end of the day, if the chaos warriors kill the deathstar they have just got a massive amount of VP's |
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| DarkChilde | Dec 5 2011, 04:44 AM Post #98 |
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The Chosen
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Kormak, No, I don’t think the event is blown out of proportion. The Ard Boyz is just a larger reflection of the local tourney scene. Even outside tournaments at local store leagues the rules remain the same, very little is comped or house ruled and special characters are usually allowed, and WOC is there but not really winning per se. In the games I have played in Empire and Dark Elves have both used Lore of Metal if they knew they were facing a WOC player. It makes sense why would a DE for example use Shadow or Death on us, most of the initiative killers i.e, purple sun, pit of shades and such are not that big of an issue for us. Mindrazor is awesome all around but even with a 3+ armor save if you get a horde of Har Ganeth in into combat they should dish out good damage. Well, if Dragon Ogres get a nice boost I will not complain about that. The same with Forsaken. Personally, I think it will be really good if Dragon Ogres get a nice boost because as far as movement and getting across the table I would choose them over Chaos Knights. True, CK have that 1+ armor save, but again for all their eliteness just like chaos warriors they have a single wound each, against a spell that ignores armor, a high strength hit, or an unlucky dangerous terrain role a single knight is gone. Compared to Dragon Ogres which are not as tough but 3 Dragon Ogres have twice as many wounds as CK and don’t have to worry about Terrain as much, plus just due to compactness of wounds and other factors losing a single Dragon Ogre out of 3 is less impactful than losing a single knight out of five. I understand though you run yours as cool unit so no problem I’m just openly pondering fast move troops (besides marauder horsemen and hounds) to use in games. http://battlereporter.blogspot.com/2009/11/warriors-of-chaos-dragon-ogre-tactica.html Is a quick article of the benefits of dragon ogres and combatting the low movement GW stuck us with. I agree it is all about VP at the end of the day, but brother let me tell you taking down that Ogrestar is easier said than done. Darkchilde Edited by DarkChilde, Dec 5 2011, 04:52 AM.
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| Terriss | Dec 5 2011, 04:48 AM Post #99 |
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The Chosen
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I hope I'm not being rude by interjecting, just the more I read this conversation, the more I want to be involved. If you'd rather I stay out, just say. :) To be honest, I don't hate forsaken as much as many other people do. Mind you, I do think that they aren't that great, but they do have a nice place to fill, albeit very limited. I've only taken forsaken a few times, all of those times being against undead (VC once, Tomb Kings all other), and they seemed to work fine. Mind you, I took a massive block (similar in structure to a chosen death star), with no characters; I probably wouldn't use them against anything else, but I've never had a reason to complain about them. I think that Warriors of Chaos may have a reputation in strength that was at one point more then well earned but is no preceding them incorrectly. DarkChilde, you mentioned that you came into the game during 8th edition. I only played a handful of 7th before they revamped, but if you talk to anybody, they'll tell you that Chaos was a top tier army in 7th. Depending on who you talk to, they might actually say that they were the best until Daemons arrived. I think in the beginning of 8th, Warriors held it's lofty throne until the other books started to get re-made, then we've just been slowly shafted due to our lack of up-to-date rules sets. The fact is, as more armies are catered to 8th, while Warriors stay stuck in 7th, we can only grow weaker until we are re-made ourselves. I'm sure a book will come out that will give us a piece-meal advantage in certain situations, but overall, we will only be pushed down. But once we are re-made, however, I think we'll find ourselves back at the top again. It wouldn't be hard to really strengthen warriors. :) I do want to make a comment on how long it's taking for Warriors to be re-done. If WoC is really the bait and trap army, then something must be attractive about it. I don't really consider fluff to be the main attractant for Warriors, as that can be argued for almost any army. Fluff is a personal preference that is completely different for anyone that you talk to; it's too varied to really be considered. However, Warriors to have a (perceived) strength in gameplay. The more I've played, I've noticed the more I win at lower level point builds (1000-1500 or so). This is obviously a beginner level point range (unless I'm the only one who didn't spend $500 dollars when they started out). Does this provide evidence towards a bait and trap aspect? Perhaps, but I'm a glass half-full guy, and I'd like to think that it's something else. I'd like to think that WoC still has some sort of stay-ability compared to the other armies. If my point isn't clear, think about it this way: why are they taking so long to re-do Lizardmen? Skaven? Dwarfs? Wood Elves? (Last one was a joke, you can laugh, it's ok.) The answer is that they are still doing well. Up until recently, Warriors did well overall. But now that books are being re-made, not so much. It's obvious that someone at GW acknowledges that we need re-tooling (if they didn't, there'd be no book in the works). But why WoC later next year, then sooner? Could be any manner of things...VC and Empire sell better...Other projects are in the works that need to be finished first (like the model re-casts)...we drew the short straw at the big book-business meeting...who knows. I feel like I may have babbled more than proved an actual point, but I felt like it needed to be said. P.S. Do you think they'll toss out Archaon? He hasn't been doing so hot fluff wise... |
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| DarkChilde | Dec 5 2011, 04:50 AM Post #100 |
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The Chosen
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Good day. Just curious why you run knights over Dragon Ogres? As I stated in my previous posts to Kormak. Dragon Ogres are cheaper, they move just as good without worrying about terrain as much, have a smaller frontage so they give the same advantage in that as ogres,they have almost twice as many wounds compacted into a small unit, and they dish out a high number of attacks. I actually found a good short article that you might like if you haven't read it already here: http://battlereporter.blogspot.com/2009/11/warriors-of-chaos-dragon-ogre-tactica.html discussing how WOC are so movement impaired (yet another way we as an army got bat guano dropped on us by the designers) and what units to use to combat this. The article gives for solid reasons in favor of using Dragon Ogres and if the get a boost in the new books along with the new plastic kits this is going to be cool as hell. Darkchilde Edited by DarkChilde, Dec 5 2011, 04:51 AM.
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| Kormak | Dec 5 2011, 05:05 AM Post #101 |
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High Executioner of Khorne
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I hate to break it to you but America isn't the center of the world, warhammer frankly isn't as big in america as it is in the UK, I mean seriously you can go to a tournament every single month in the UK, can you do that in america without jumping on a train of flying across the country. In the UK you have a GW store in pretty much every town or one which is easy enough to drive to. GW themselves run a tournament every few months at warhammer world. Another reason it is not a good reflection of the tournmanet scene is the points level, its what 3k? you standard tournament is 2000-2400pts, this is also most common points value of armylist posted. How often is ard boyz? once a year? how is that a greater reflection of the tournament scene? You have said the one thing that really gets my goat! If you would like I could get sales figure that show how much larger the customer base is on the rest of the world.
In my experience I have found most armies will take two wizards, a lvl4 and a lvl1-2, the lvl4 will either have Shadow, life or the armies lore, while they usually have a lower level one usually has more of the same or fire. If the lvl4 has Death magic then the lower lvl will certainly have lore of shadow for Misama. Lore of shadow is excellent aganst WoC: 1:Misama - lower I so I based spell will kill large amounts of warriors, knights etc, lower WS so warriors are now hitting on 5's or at the very least have your unit hitting on a 3+, reduce movement so you get more shooting on the unit. 2: Enfeebling foe - Reducing S by D3, yeah terrible against chaos warriors, nothing like S3 chaos warriors with halberds or S3 chaos knights! 3: the Withering - nothing like wounding chaos warriors on a 2+ with S3 shooting, especially if DE. 4: Pit of shades - combine this with misama, take out trolls, dragon ogres or hellcannons. 5: Mindrazor - Obvious one really Sorry why do I need metal again? oh wait, because it good against a couple of armies and abit meh against the rest, can't see why any all comers army would include it. Base spell of fire is better in most situations, lower casting value, good against regen units, good against horde units, brilliant against HE.
Did I mention I use dragon ogres in my Tzeentch list over chaos knights? thing is knight are not instantly better than dragon ogres nor visa versa, depends what you want the unit for. While your correct the dragon ogres have more wounds you are going to be taking alot more wounds than chaos knights because of the higher armour save. I have to say you have a very narrow outlook on warhammer and because of what might happen you right off half of the book, more than likely before trying it. Is my unit of 8 knights + jugger hero the most competitive choice? certainly not, it does however fill a very useful role in my army (when I use it), main thing here is I don't care if it dies, if people concentrate on that my other stuff gets across the table in much better shape and does some real damage. If it survives even with a single model then thats 700pts they didn't get (with character).
Everything is easy said than done, I have confidence that I have the tools in whatever list I use to do it, if the dice fail me or get out played then so be it, it won't because chaos warriors are a weak list. Edited by Kormak, Dec 5 2011, 05:42 AM.
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| DarkChilde | Dec 5 2011, 05:39 AM Post #102 |
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The Chosen
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TERRIS, First, I can’t speak for Kormak but from my understanding this is an open forum and any post not made via PM is open for anyone to comment on so welcome to the discussion fellow chaosite. You are the only person I have heard of to really run Forsaken. In all honestly I like the fluff of the forsaken but it is just for the mechanics of them I can’t see choosing them over other units like a block of frenzied marauders. I do think with the new book that Forsaken will definitely get a boost though. You and I are from what I can tell in complete agreement on the perceived strength of WOC of chaos. Like you said I am a new schooler and a lot of people that I hear talk about WOC being strong started out in older editions. From what I have seen WOC are indeed slipping in strength and will continue to slip until we get a new book, at least hopefully. Again, I think it depends on who at GW writes the new book. As regards your comments on WOC being a B&T…well, like I said I don’t know if we are that myself. I certainly hope not. I too saw WOC doing well at lower levels but as an army people seem to struggle against what the other armies got at higher tiers of play. I don’t see how they would drop Archaon as he is the centerpiece of the army. His fluff is really cool and it is true nobody really runs him even at 3000 points, but 2 things on that one of the reasons nobody runs him is because you have to take a unit of knights with him and from what I have seen most people in general feel cavalry is a waste when in 8th edition as the game has moved towards big blocks of warriors as instead of cavalry and 2) if you look at most armies hardly anybody of any army uses the centerpiece person. I mean, Empire players rarely run Emperor Karl Franz, Ogres aren’t running Greasus or whatever the dudes name is. A lot of armies even here in the states don’t use the special characters because they want to take magical items, etc some exceptions that I can think of are High Elves if given the choice almost always use Teclis, and Dark Elves love using that guy Fellhart to get double points on a unit they destroy. Darkchilde Edited by DarkChilde, Dec 5 2011, 05:40 AM.
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| Kormak | Dec 5 2011, 05:47 AM Post #103 |
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High Executioner of Khorne
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Daemons came out for before WoC, WoC have never been a top tier list, they got alot stronger with 8th ed because of the game being focused around infantry. WoC are a good army because they have some of the best troops in the game! I am not really seeing the slip in power as the new books are not all that overpowered, while better than the previous versions they are geneally pretty balanced. I've played orcs a few times, main problem unit to me seems like savage orc bus. |
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| Terriss | Dec 5 2011, 08:50 AM Post #104 |
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The Chosen
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Kormak, Perhaps it's the group that I happen to play with, but I've heard nothing but the opposite from all the people that I play with. Perhaps it's simply a culmination of different experiences in different places. I know that WoC were around before Daemons, that's why I said that many people considered WoC to be the overall best before Daemons, which put the term broken on a whole new level. I do agree with you, that WoC got much stronger initially, because of the bigger forcus on main infantry (I think Chaos warriors are still regarded as one of the top three core units.) But I have seen a decline in simply the overall effectivity of the army. It's almost intangible, but even if my Chaos warriors do what they're supposed to, even have minimal losses, I still lose by one way or another. Now, please don't take this as an oversimplification, I do not mean to imply it as such. I'm not comparing the entire book to one unit, or basing the game effectiveness of the book on one unit. I also realize that even after playing for three years, I still learn so much every time that I play, so I'm a fledgling commanding officer at best. But I'll say it again, even when everything seems to go right, sometimes I still lose (and I'm not referring to scenario rules, either.) I want to put it out there, that I don't think that WoC have become a lower tier army. It is my honest oppinion that we are middle of the road right now (perhaps leaning slightly towards the upper end of it), but I do think that we are sinking. I also don't think that the new books are overpowered. I just think that they are designed around 8th edition, and therefore will perform better in 8th edition. WoC is not. The new books exploit things from the new rules that WoC cannot, and that leaves us wanting. On a side note on our initial topic, it's amazing to me that regional differences could cause such a vast difference in apparent play effectiveness of the same book. I'll have to keep that in mind if I hear bad UK reviews on the new book when it comes out. :P DarkChilde, What I meant about Archaon wasn't in regards to his actual competitive playability. If that were the judge that we'd have maybe three named characters across fifteen books. I simply meant in regards to a lot of GW fluff that came out about him losing quite a few key battles. During the Storm of Chaos supplement, GW ran a massive campaign that involved thousands of GW stores running tournaments based around the supplement, simulating Archaon's march south to take over the empire. It's hard to find, but if you read through the fluff-translated battle reports that they posted (and that is actually kind of a dry read most of the way through), you'll find that Archaon made a few blunders along the way and ultimately lost the culminated battle with the Empire (which was expected...we can't eliminate the Empire, now can we?) In fact, in the last battle between Archaon and Valten, Valen crack's Archaon's armor, kills Dorghar and I think destroys his helmet. This all occurred before the WoC book came out, and the Hordes of Chaos book was still in circulation. (For anyone reading this, if my facts aren't straight, please correct me.) But all in all, Archaon lost and lost really badly (I think he promised to capture a city in honor of the gods, and never actually did), so a lot of people have wondered why the chaos gods haven't punished him for losing. Honestly, I think GW just conveniently ignored the campaign fluff wise and just kept chugging along with him like it never even happened. Although, most other army books reflect that the campaign did happen...and Crom disappeared afterwards (oh, how I miss him), just as he did in the campaign. So, that's why I think that Archaon may not appear in the next book. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the idea of him, and all of his fluff (even though he did lose, he still put a hurtin' on the empire, like the badass he is.) I also love his sculpt. I think he's the best looking miniature that GW has, and I intend to own him at some point, whether I ever use him as Archaon or not. Or maybe GW will shock me and offer a fluff explanation for why he's still kicking after all that. Who knows, maybe we'll see Archaon the Daemon Prince! (or the infernal Spawn, heehee.) |
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| DarkSchneider | Dec 5 2011, 10:11 AM Post #105 |
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Clanlord
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Noce that DO article except it is written for the 7th Edition.... BtW, i thought this thread was for the upcoming book.....it looks more like a discussion if woc are strong or not....pretty useless, imho |
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10:45 PM Jul 11