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Chaos 8th Ed Book - 2012
Topic Started: Nov 23 2011, 10:29 PM (2,296 Views)
DarkChilde
The Chosen
Kormak,

First, yes I actually can go to a tournament every month. It may be a small one but there about 4 local game shops in my area and usually they do have a tournament going on at least once a month, and we are not a major metropolitan area per se, and in bigger states like Texas, California, etc there are many games shops for Warhammer whether official GW stores or not. I am aware America despite being a super power is not the center of the world, however when discussing the differences that you and I and some others seem to have experience on the tournament scene with WOC I do think it relevant to bring up that we are across the pond and the scenes on to sides of the Atlantic are evidently different. I would like to see two things now that you mention it. I would like to see the sales figures in the U.S of GW products compared to the U.K, but I don’t want a percentage of profits (as their maybe a higher percentage of people in the U.K. that play WH relative to your population), but rather just a straight out dollar amount of sales generated. I don’t doubt there is a GW store all over U.K. bu the U.K. fit inside several of our states two times over. You figure each State in the U.S say has 3 games shops that sell and promote GW products, whether an independent shop or an official shop (and I can assure you we have more than 3 games stores per states) but you take 3 and times it by 50 and that is a lot of stores in the U.S selling GW products so yes if you have it just to sate my curiosity show me the hard sales figures (not percentage amounts). Secondly, if we are going to be fair in how well WOC is doing in the U.K. as compared to Ard Boyz show me how well WOC are doing in the U.K. in official GW tournaments (Ard Boyz is an official tournament) where as you indicated even in the U.K list are not comped. I bet WOC overall are not coming in 3rd place in those tourneys. Also, I apologize I didn’t mean to get your goat we eat steak over here dude ;)

Again, in regards to wizards in army list I am well aware a level 4 and level 2 are mandatory and the rest of the list is built from there as I said in several post actually, but depending on the rules of the tournament a wizard maybe able to change his lores between games with the only exception being if a WOC caster bears a mark, and the reason you couldn’t change it then is because while some tournaments will allow you to change your lores between games you can’t change your official list and taking a mark of a wizard is a list change. I have played against Dark Elve and Empire players who chose Metal. I don’t know why they chose metal over shadow. That is their choice all I can do is play against it.

I don’t have a narrow outlook on Warhammer nor do I write off half the book before trying it, but I can look at the book and make a logical deduction regarding what units are more effective at certain things than others. I have never said I have never used knights before. I have ran them, but for the most part I don’t use them know because from what I have seen in this addition cavalry are not as effective as blocks of warriors.

Chaos does have a lot of tool, but being a jack of all trades master of none is not really a good thing. As I have heard said if you are going to do something half arse don’t do it at all. We are supposed to be the kings of melee but ogres have taken us over. In GW tournaments chaos is not doing well. This will only increase as newer books come out before ours.

Darkchilde
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DarkChilde
The Chosen
DarkSchneider
Dec 5 2011, 10:11 AM
Noce that DO article except it is written for the 7th Edition....
BtW, i thought this thread was for the upcoming book.....it looks more like a discussion if woc are strong or not....pretty useless, imho
Yeah,and it is irrelevant because our speed has increases in 8th edition :-/ . Plus, all the units in our current book are 7th edition so the article is relevant.

Yes, the thread here is about the upcoming book, but it's kind of hard to discuss what you want to see in future books without discussing the problems or perceived problems of the army currently.

Darkchilde
Edited by DarkChilde, Dec 5 2011, 10:59 AM.
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DarkChilde
The Chosen
Terris,

Okay, I get what you were saying in regards to Archaon, still I think GW will keep him in the next book but give some explanation as to why he is the the Everchosen, maybe they will even boost him up in stats as the Gods have are angered by his lost and have given him more power and one last chance to keep his promises to them or some such.

Also, I would agree that we are a mid-tier but right now, but I like you I think we will sink until the new book comes out. The only point I disagree on is that the new books are balanced. I will agree that some of the books are balanced, but the Ogre Kingdoms book is not balanced hence why OK have been winnng tournaments here recently. You don't exactly have to be Alexander to Great to lead an army to victory that has what is in that book and the same goes for Skaven.

Darkchilde
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
Terriss
Dec 5 2011, 08:50 AM
Kormak,

Perhaps it's the group that I happen to play with, but I've heard nothing but the opposite from all the people that I play with. Perhaps it's simply a culmination of different experiences in different places. I know that WoC were around before Daemons, that's why I said that many people considered WoC to be the overall best before Daemons, which put the term broken on a whole new level.

I do agree with you, that WoC got much stronger initially, because of the bigger forcus on main infantry (I think Chaos warriors are still regarded as one of the top three core units.) But I have seen a decline in simply the overall effectivity of the army. It's almost intangible, but even if my Chaos warriors do what they're supposed to, even have minimal losses, I still lose by one way or another. Now, please don't take this as an oversimplification, I do not mean to imply it as such. I'm not comparing the entire book to one unit, or basing the game effectiveness of the book on one unit. I also realize that even after playing for three years, I still learn so much every time that I play, so I'm a fledgling commanding officer at best. But I'll say it again, even when everything seems to go right, sometimes I still lose (and I'm not referring to scenario rules, either.)

I want to put it out there, that I don't think that WoC have become a lower tier army. It is my honest oppinion that we are middle of the road right now (perhaps leaning slightly towards the upper end of it), but I do think that we are sinking.

I also don't think that the new books are overpowered. I just think that they are designed around 8th edition, and therefore will perform better in 8th edition. WoC is not. The new books exploit things from the new rules that WoC cannot, and that leaves us wanting.

On a side note on our initial topic, it's amazing to me that regional differences could cause such a vast difference in apparent play effectiveness of the same book. I'll have to keep that in mind if I hear bad UK reviews on the new book when it comes out. :P

Horde of chaos was around before daemons of chaos (which was a combined book), daemons of chaos was the first of the new chaos books, afterwards WoC god a white dwarf list, then WoC got a book and then Beasts got a book. Daemons singularly broke 7th ed, WoC have never been considered a better book?? Nurgle wall of fun comes to mind when you got to use both your wardsave and Regen save!

On a side note I don't think WoC list is a top tier list either, I have never said, I have said they have a good but unfluffy list, reason they are not top tier is because that very clearly belongs to 3 lists, Lizards, DE and Skaven.

WoC actually got massive buffs when 8th ed came out, the new books haven't taken anything away from the list, WoC still have some of the best core and special troops in the game. The rare section could be better and knights certainly need a price reduction like all cavalry that has been released for 8th ed, still you can easily create a competitive allcomers list with little problem (bar Skaven).

Looking at the new books for 8th I bar the magic lores (which doesn't matter when you can take a undivided sorcerer and use the BRB lores) nothing really stands out as something that is superior to what the WoC can field. Monsters have been mentioned but I have a discussions about this with a TO and we both agreed its going to be hard to make a monster competitive unless cannons are changed, the Sphinx will still die to a couple of cannon balls (it actually takes less than a hellcannon because of the monster and handler rule). In the Orc and Goblin book what really causes a WoC player to concern? Big un's are certainly good but chaos warriors will still consistently beat them in combat and you can either use lore of Tzeentch (pandemonium) or lore of death (doom and darkness) to break the unit.

We also still have some amazing items that can us a massive advantage, we have the best miscast protection in the game (puppet) which also works to screw your opponent over, 3rd eye of Tzeentch is simply amazing, I just love using that against Ogres and playing "who can buff their units the most".


Quote:
 
First, yes I actually can go to a tournament every month. It may be a small one but there about 4 local game shops in my area and usually they do have a tournament going on at least once a month, and we are not a major metropolitan area per se, and in bigger states like Texas, California, etc there are many games shops for Warhammer whether official GW stores or not. I am aware America despite being a super power is not the center of the world, however when discussing the differences that you and I and some others seem to have experience on the tournament scene with WOC I do think it relevant to bring up that we are across the pond and the scenes on to sides of the Atlantic are evidently different. I would like to see two things now that you mention it. I would like to see the sales figures in the U.S of GW products compared to the U.K, but I don’t want a percentage of profits (as their maybe a higher percentage of people in the U.K. that play WH relative to your population), but rather just a straight out dollar amount of sales generated. I don’t doubt there is a GW store all over U.K. bu the U.K. fit inside several of our states two times over. You figure each State in the U.S say has 3 games shops that sell and promote GW products, whether an independent shop or an official shop (and I can assure you we have more than 3 games stores per states) but you take 3 and times it by 50 and that is a lot of stores in the U.S selling GW products so yes if you have it just to sate my curiosity show me the hard sales figures (not percentage amounts). Secondly, if we are going to be fair in how well WOC is doing in the U.K. as compared to Ard Boyz show me how well WOC are doing in the U.K. in official GW tournaments (Ard Boyz is an official tournament) where as you indicated even in the U.K list are not comped. I bet WOC overall are not coming in 3rd place in those tourneys. Also, I apologize I didn’t mean to get your goat we eat steak over here dude ;)


http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/2011-Full-Year-Report-and-Accounts-full-25-July.pdf

Have a dig through that, about half down gives you the sales figure, must say I was surprised, thought america was lower, america was about equal to the uk, then again americans pay more for the GW products, reality is american provides just under a 1/3 of the sales. So no, ard boyz doesn't represent the vast majority of anything, as for stores, just doing a quick search, within a 50 mile radius of my address you have 16 GW owned stores (I got bored of counting the indie store), you have 3 per state? how is that even remotely impressive, London is a city and have more GW owned stores, let along all the indie traders. Now if you want to take into consideration the size of the population of the uk in comparison to america, clearly GW has a much larger presence here, then again it just doesn't have the competition. My Town which is pretty small has a GW and a indie trader, I can take a hour an hour drive in any direction and find another GW.

Quote:
 
Again, in regards to wizards in army list I am well aware a level 4 and level 2 are mandatory and the rest of the list is built from there as I said in several post actually, but depending on the rules of the tournament a wizard maybe able to change his lores between games with the only exception being if a WOC caster bears a mark, and the reason you couldn’t change it then is because while some tournaments will allow you to change your lores between games you can’t change your official list and taking a mark of a wizard is a list change. I have played against Dark Elve and Empire players who chose Metal. I don’t know why they chose metal over shadow. That is their choice all I can do is play against it.


Now you see thats why you don't see metal used in tournaments very often here, you can't change you list at all, then again the rules state you are meant to not this in your armylist rather than pick and choose it per game.

Quote:
 
I don’t have a narrow outlook on Warhammer nor do I write off half the book before trying it, but I can look at the book and make a logical deduction regarding what units are more effective at certain things than others. I have never said I have never used knights before. I have ran them, but for the most part I don’t use them know because from what I have seen in this addition cavalry are not as effective as blocks of warriors.


Of course some things are more effective than others, marauders with GW + MOK are better than chaos warriors for the points if you simply look at pure killing power. Something interesting to point out with the article earlier you posted, if you noticed he actually suggested to use chaos knights and dragon ogres together (even if a 7th ed article). Thing with chaos knights is that they are a support unit (or dragon ogres), they give you something that can move fast and bring the fight to the enemy, they also help when playing against someone who is playing points denial, its certainly easy to do if you playing a pretty much pure infantry list. Also you can't just put down a unit of 5 knights and expect them to do much unless you use them as on flanks, yes they will get shoot by cannons unless the cannons are shooting you hellcannons, then again you hellcannon might not get shoot because your knights are being shoot by cannons.

http://s4.zetaboards.com/cotec/topic/9256988/1/?x=0#post8166344

That is my semi-competitive yet themed list (I am bored of using Tzeentch lists), I think you will find I have managed to fit everything in I previously mentioned, I am sure you won't agree with it but hey, what can you do.

Quote:
 
Chaos does have a lot of tool, but being a jack of all trades master of none is not really a good thing. As I have heard said if you are going to do something half arse don’t do it at all. We are supposed to be the kings of melee but ogres have taken us over. In GW tournaments chaos is not doing well. This will only increase as newer books come out before ours.


WoC are not jack of all trades and master of none, WoC are one of the best combat armies about, I don't agree with you on ogres, I've read the book and figured out how to deal with the problems you mentioned, I really don't see them as the issue you make them out to be. Having a unit that is half characters and half troops does not make them a premier combat army, it just means they rely heavily on characters to be able to stand up to other armies in combat. WoC can however kill weakly protected characters with some relative ease.
Edited by Kormak, Dec 5 2011, 12:09 PM.
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DarkSchneider
Clanlord
DarkChilde
Dec 5 2011, 10:58 AM
DarkSchneider
Dec 5 2011, 10:11 AM
Noce that DO article except it is written for the 7th Edition....
BtW, i thought this thread was for the upcoming book.....it looks more like a discussion if woc are strong or not....pretty useless, imho
Yeah,and it is irrelevant because our speed has increases in 8th edition :-/ . Plus, all the units in our current book are 7th edition so the article is relevant.

Yes, the thread here is about the upcoming book, but it's kind of hard to discuss what you want to see in future books without discussing the problems or perceived problems of the army currently.

Darkchilde
Actually, our speed DID got a boost, hiving the new rules for charge and march blocking.
Now warriors have an average charge range of 11", and we can march almost always.
Out book is the one who got the most benefits from 8th edition, it was almost like a rewriting, and that's why we are still in the top tiers. Of course,when facing armies that were written for being superior, we struggle, but we have all the tools for handle everything,and that's all that matters.
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cross
The Chosen
just a quick, curious note. the Australian masters finished up over the weekend.
1st. ogres
2nd. dwarves
3rd. warriors (slaanesh army) got good comp score
4th. skaven

the gun dark elf player couldnt make it, so who knows.

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DarkChilde
The Chosen
DarkSchneider
Dec 5 2011, 03:10 PM
DarkChilde
Dec 5 2011, 10:58 AM
DarkSchneider
Dec 5 2011, 10:11 AM
Noce that DO article except it is written for the 7th Edition....
BtW, i thought this thread was for the upcoming book.....it looks more like a discussion if woc are strong or not....pretty useless, imho
Yeah,and it is irrelevant because our speed has increases in 8th edition :-/ . Plus, all the units in our current book are 7th edition so the article is relevant.

Yes, the thread here is about the upcoming book, but it's kind of hard to discuss what you want to see in future books without discussing the problems or perceived problems of the army currently.

Darkchilde
Actually, our speed DID got a boost, hiving the new rules for charge and march blocking.
Now warriors have an average charge range of 11", and we can march almost always.
Out book is the one who got the most benefits from 8th edition, it was almost like a rewriting, and that's why we are still in the top tiers. Of course,when facing armies that were written for being superior, we struggle, but we have all the tools for handle everything,and that's all that matters.
The boost we got is illusory as the speed of other armies both greater than and equal to us in speed received the same boost. Again, I do not doubt our book has a number of tools that can help counter other armies, but having tools to counter armies without a specialization of our own is not a good thing. Likewise having core troops with the best stat line in the game is somewhat useless when compared to the tricks and "broken" builds of other armies hence why in non comped tournaments chaos isn't doing so hot.
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DarkChilde
The Chosen
cross
Dec 5 2011, 05:22 PM
just a quick, curious note. the Australian masters finished up over the weekend.
1st. ogres
2nd. dwarves
3rd. warriors (slaanesh army) got good comp score
4th. skaven

the gun dark elf player couldnt make it, so who knows.

What ogres came in first place with a new book written by Jeremy "King Midas" Vetok! Suprise that! Say it ain't so. I wonder what is behind this rash to tactical brilliance and superior generalship suddenly being shown by Ogre Kingdom player ;)
Edited by DarkChilde, Dec 5 2011, 09:47 PM.
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DarkChilde
The Chosen
Kormak,

I think you list looks fine for a mono-deity semi competitive list and you seem to have had luck with it so good. Also, the number of stores I gave was a conservative estimate that why I said let's say because I was givng 3 per state for arguments states. They are about 4 near me and I live in the center portion of the state out to the west and east of the state I live there are more stores in those locations. That is a crap load of stores. You may have more stores per capita in London and the U.K. but just by sheer size we will have more whether indies or official GW stores.

Yes, I agree that knights can be good against certain armies for specific things. For example, I have used them in the past when facing dwarves to have a durable unit to get to his war machines quickly, but after reading the article I linked if I faced dwarves again I might go with Dragon Ogres instead, but knights can have their uses.

Warriors of chaos are a good combat army. We are also a strong magic army, but we are not masters of either, coupled with the fact that we can spam artillery like the dwarves or spam shooting attacks likd Dark Elves and Elves so you are correct we are not jacks of all trades we are jacks of two.

You are correct that having a unit comprised of characters and infantry isn’t a premiere combat trait as any army can do that (although said armies characters will be as durable and offensive as the Ogre characters and when I say characters I am referring to casters because as we both agree most competitive list have a level 4 and 2 caster and then branch out from there). What makes the ogres tough is having martially durable and offensive combat casters coupled with multiple impact hits, coupled with multiple attacks per model, coupled with multiple attacks per model in the second rank, coupled with higher end strength, coupled with higher speed, coupled with multiple wounds per model, coupled with minimum frontage, coupled stomps at the end just the top the date off with a kiss, and supported by cavalry that have multiple wounds and seven attacks per model and a breath weapon that can cause additional wounds and potentially make a unit always strike last, mixed with move and shoot cannons that are not overly expensive and so usually two will be fielded, mixed with whatever other units he decides to throw in. Not a premier combat army? Yeah.

Darkchilde
Edited by DarkChilde, Dec 5 2011, 09:40 PM.
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
DarkChilde
Dec 5 2011, 09:20 PM
I think you list looks fine for a mono-deity semi competitive list and you seem to have had luck with it so good. Also, the number of stores I gave was a conservative estimate that why I said let's say because I was givng 3 per state for arguments states. They are about 4 near me and I live in the center portion of the state out to the west and east of the state I live there are more stores in those locations. That is a crap load of stores. You may have more stores per capita in London and the U.K. but just by sheer size we will have more whether indies or official GW stores.


I think your are forgetting something, the size of a state vs the size of a town/city, a state is more like the size of a county, for example London is about 611 sq miles while a state is anything from 1045 - 570,374 sq miles. The county if live in is called Essex which is more more like 1,520 sq miles, within that county I can visit 5 Gameworkshop store plus all indie stores that sell GW products along with other indie store (I got bored of counting them). The fact is GW has a much larger presence in the UK than any other country, its a british company what do you expect, the fact is america has states bigger than the the whole of england! Now consider the fact that american sales are not actually higher than the UK I think you will find that american warhammer players are at most a representation of a 3rd of warhammer players, not as you suggested a true reflection of tournament players. Actually looking at Ard boyz it seems like its the American version of throne of skulls which really is a tiny portion of tournament play, hence the lack of a comp system.

Here is a link I used to find tournaments:

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=13

As far as I am aware this isn't a exclusive uk website, I had a link for another but lost that when I formatted my hard drive :(

Anyways thankyou, not tested it out yet, I have tested eliments from it but this is a new incarnation after becoming bored of using the mono Tzeentch list (just so boring to use).

Quote:
 
Yes, I agree that knights can be good against certain armies for specific things. For example, I have used them in the past when facing dwarves to have a durable unit to get to his war machines quickly, but after reading the article I linked if I faced dwarves again I might go with Dragon Ogres instead, but knights can have their uses.


Now you see against dwarfs I would actually use chaos hounds to take out warmachines, fast, cheap and no one cares if they die, the dwarf player is forced to waste shooting on a 30pts unit or have his unit tied up in combat for several turns. Dragon ogres certainly have uses, I use mine for mage hunting, unit of 3 with additional hand weapons 2 wide, reduces attacks on my unit, gives them the small frontage to sneak past unit, the shaggoth is also very good at this because of the large amount of killing power it can bring to a single point and a much smaller base size (than 3 dragon ogres). amazing against skaven :)

Quote:
 
Warriors of chaos are a good combat army. We are also a strong magic army, but we are not masters of either, coupled with the fact that we can spam artillery like the dwarves or spam shooting attacks likd Dark Elves and Elves so you are correct we are not jacks of all trades we are jacks of two.


Thing is Chaos are not average at combat, are units are very good, the fact is unlike so many armies out units do not require characters to be powerful in combat. How many armies can boost WS5 S5 I5 A2(3) attacks per model or the dirty cheap marauders? Marauders are one of the best units in the game, while HE have better elites than our core they are very much a glass hammer and honestly our special choices just roll them over. SM destroy chaos warriors with halberds but MoT with HW+SH can go toe to toe with them, chosen just rip them. I tend to actually use my chaos knights against them, my exalted will usually remove the ASF from 3 guys + support attacks while the rest are having to go through a 1+ armour save, they are very easy to deal with when they only have 1 ranks (8wide) and T3.


Quote:
 
You are correct that having a unit comprised of characters and infantry isn’t a premiere combat trait as any army can do that (although said armies characters will be as durable and offensive as the Ogre characters and when I say characters I am referring to casters because as we both agree most competitive list have a level 4 and 2 caster and then branch out from there). What makes the ogres tough is having martially durable and offensive combat casters coupled with multiple impact hits, coupled with multiple attacks per model, coupled with multiple attacks per model in the second rank, coupled with higher end strength, coupled with higher speed, coupled with multiple wounds per model, coupled with minimum frontage, coupled stomps at the end just the top the date off with a kiss, and supported by cavalry that have multiple wounds and seven attacks per model and a breath weapon that can cause additional wounds and potentially make a unit always strike last, mixed with move and shoot cannons that are not overly expensive and so usually two will be fielded, mixed with whatever other units he decides to throw in. Not a premier combat army? Yeah.


So the ogres in the back rank have 9 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounds on 4s giving you a 5+ armour save, amazing, the real killing power is coming from the characters which you can kill before they even strike (I4 is a bitch). We can take units just like ogres, they are called trolls and dragon ogres, now for the same points as that ogre deathstar and have plenty of points to spare I could have a unit of 6 dragon ogres with additional hand weapons, they pump out 21 WS4 S5 attacks + 3 S5 stomps, have M7, 4+ save and actually have more wounds, I could always go with the great weapon option and have 18ws4 S7 attacks + 3S5 stomps. I could have a unit of 9 trolls + throgg for the same points and still have plenty of points to spare pumping out 27 S5 WS3 attacks, 5 WS5 S6 attacks who also have a S5 breath weapon that ignores armour saves. I could always vomit and do 10 automatic S5 hits but with mutant regen those stats could be anything, maybe another 10 attacks? maybe S6? maybe both, maybe they get 4+ wardsave and stubborn?

Yes ogres have a army of MI, WoC can as well, people tend to use chaos warriors over MI because they are simply better, I seriously think you don't give the book enough credit.

If a Ogre list has two casters in its unit I'm happy with that, I take it they won't be stupid enough to even try doing a makeway move against chaos warriors or chaos knights, besides I love playing against ogres wizards, 3rd eye of tzeentch is pretty funny thing. You can make you ogres regen? awesome! so can i! you can makes +1T, sweet! so can I now! You just miscast? guess I will alter that by D3, have I just placed a S10 large template over your unit! guess thats a rank bonus and steadfast gone :)

minimum frontage isn't a issue, I can still get my entire unit in combat, i use my units 6 wide so I actually like playing against people with small frontages, doesn't usually effect me. The impact hits are a slight issue bur it depends if they roll a 10+ (I think), if they don't then its just 3 impact hits, then I get to pound the unit with 24 I5 S5 attack. If they have anything WS4 or less in front rank then I have a fair chance of killing it.

Yes the cavalry are good, I assume people use them in units of 3-4 right? so 9-10 wounds? so I only really need to kill 2-3 to win combat and then no steadfast, could always use my knights on them.

Move or fire cannon is annoying for sure, pitty about the leadership, only have to touch it so it takes ld 6 panic tests, I have seen them used and people seem to put them on the flank, could always just kill it in combat I guess.

Your seriously just making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Darkchilde
[/quote]edit in a sec
Edited by Kormak, Dec 5 2011, 10:50 PM.
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DarkSchneider
Clanlord
Yes, everyone got a speed boost, that means opponents are going to get in combat with us faster and guess what, with new I rules we care no more for who's charging who, except in some cases......
And the tables are still the same length, so against defensive opponents warriors are getting into combat at least one turn before 7th edition.....
Seriously, I think 8th rules were written specifically for the woc,it's amazing how our army changed, and for the better.
Of course there are things that need to be adjusted, like some point costs or level 1 mages getting same lores of level 3, and it would be really good to have some nasty special rules, finally.
I would also like to get some hood monsters, being new ones or upgrades for the old.
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DarkChilde
The Chosen
DarkSchneider
Dec 6 2011, 12:39 AM
Yes, everyone got a speed boost, that means opponents are going to get in combat with us faster and guess what, with new I rules we care no more for who's charging who, except in some cases......
And the tables are still the same length, so against defensive opponents warriors are getting into combat at least one turn before 7th edition.....
Seriously, I think 8th rules were written specifically for the woc,it's amazing how our army changed, and for the better.
Of course there are things that need to be adjusted, like some point costs or level 1 mages getting same lores of level 3, and it would be really good to have some nasty special rules, finally.
I would also like to get some hood monsters, being new ones or upgrades for the old.
I don't know it still seems pretty easy for people to run point denial games against us. Why do you say it doesn't matter if someone gets the charge off on us? You and I can both agree I'm sure that it is not good for armies like Bretonians, Ogres, and Beastman to get a charge off on us and thus get impact hits, but even against other armies every point of combat resolution helps as far as I have seen so I hate being charged if I can help it.

I agree that I would like to see some good monsters made. I'am also looking forward to the new chariot/warshrine model, although the warshrine was not a model I minded customizing and converting, but still think it will be good. I think 8th edition favoring big blocks of infantry has been a boon to WOC, but I think as the game goes on and progresses and newer books come out we will continue to fall until we can get a new book ourselves, and if that book makes us strong and not nerfs us.

Darkchilde
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DarkChilde
The Chosen
Kormak,

There a lot of game stores in America, but I will agree that as a British based company GW should have a higher presence and thus percentage wise more players per capita than anywhere else. As far as tournaments I would say if we want to be technical than official GW tournaments should be a true reflection of tournaments and army strengths. Regarding tournaments here in the States most are played at point ranges from 2,000-2,500 points. It is rare other than Ard Boyz to find a 3000 point tournament, but still here in the 2,000-2,500 point tournaments you will rarely find “comps” and the most common comp is simply no named characters allowed so for example if you ever get a chance to visit the States (if you haven’t already) in most 2,000 point tournaments here don’t be surprised to see things like competitive dark elve list running two war hydras, etc.

Also, I don’t see how a comp tournament can be a true testament to an one armies strength compared to another. To use a sports analogy it would be like if two NBA players decided to play a game of basketball against each other, and because one player had a better scoring record for his technique they the judges decided to have that player put a weights in his tennis shoes and extra heavy armbands on his wrist to make it fair and then had the players face each other. If the player who wasn’t waited down won the game it isn’t a true testament to his strength it is a testament to the fact that he can win against the handicapped player. That’s all.

On a side, note I do have say thank you it really has been very interesting hearing about the tournament scene, or at least the independent tournament scene from you. I had no clue there was such big difference. Again, I’m not deriding it or claiming one is better I just think it is interesting. I hope to make it to the U.K someday and the abundance of Warhammer there is one of the perks along with the beer and other things that I look forward to..

Yeah, I agree completely with hounds versus dwarves. When I did league play more I would spam hounds against dwarven gunlines. The only problem I found with them is because they run out ahead of the units and with the low leadership they panic very easily, especially if the dwarf is using flaming attacks. I have had some good success with them though, believe it or not one time I actually had a warhound unit make it to and take out a three man warmachine crew. Now, granted the dwarf was extremely unlucky on his dice rolls and my dice were hot that whole game, but those little puppies damned well earn their points that night. I also think Chaos Spawn are actually pretty good as cheap target practice for dwarves and being unbreakable can mess up a warmachine crew if they make it there. Another thing I have pulled on my buddy and his gunline is have Wulfrik with a block of frenzied Marauders show up near him. That makes for a right proper surprise.

You want get an argument from me that we are good against high elves if marked with Tzeentch and hand weapon and shields, but then they have Teclis to fall back on, better speed so if they maneuver correctly they should be getting the charges off, etc.

As regards, Ogres this is going to remain the only thing (other than our views on the marks) that are a point of contention. I don’t think I am making a mountain out of a mole him. The book is overpowered. Right now, Ogre Kingdoms are turning up winning tournaments from the U.S to Australia. What is behind this sudden global upsurge in OK players? Is there some kind of sudden collective burst of tactical brilliance that all of them had an epiphany on at the same time? Did the general of every other army all of sudden get hit with the stupid stick? I think not. Jeremy “King Midas” Vetok+New OK you figure out the rest of the equation.

You yourself have said that we have never been a top tier but always a solid mid tier army, although Daemons of Chaos were top tier in prior editions (and judging from the Ard Boyz results and seem to be holding their own now) I just want us to get to the upper deck at some point.

Darkchilde.
Edited by DarkChilde, Dec 6 2011, 08:16 AM.
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
DarkChilde
Dec 6 2011, 08:03 AM
There a lot of game stores in America, but I will agree that as a British based company GW should have a higher presence and thus percentage wise more players per capita than anywhere else. As far as tournaments I would say if we want to be technical than official GW tournaments should be a true reflection of tournaments and army strengths. Regarding tournaments here in the States most are played at point ranges from 2,000-2,500 points. It is rare other than Ard Boyz to find a 3000 point tournament, but still here in the 2,000-2,500 point tournaments you will rarely find “comps” and the most common comp is simply no named characters allowed so for example if you ever get a chance to visit the States (if you haven’t already) in most 2,000 point tournaments here don’t be surprised to see things like competitive dark elve list running two war hydras, etc.


http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2000984a_Throne_of_Skulls_Rules_2012.pdf

This is GW idea of a true representation of a tournament, people have actually complained it isn't competitive enough, they removed all the heats andno free ticket to the final (actually no grand final). You can now win if you do the best out your army rather than doing the best at the event. GW don't want the game as competitive as americans like it to be. I dunno, americans just seem overly competitive in everything, problem is I think you have made a lot of assumptions. The rules simply are not designed for competitive play, hence why we see all the imbalances in the books, warhammer is a beer and curry game (I don't like pretzels). So if I like I can get very technical about it, been in the hobby for 19years I think, the rules are designed for one thing, they are designed to sell the latest plastic kits, once you understand this truth you begin to understand the game needs comps.

Who cares about double Hydras, seems like its in the same boat as a double hellcannon to me ;)

I'm sure I will make it over to the states again, I do love how easy american women are ;) they seem to love that sexy brit accent ;)

Quote:
 
Also, I don’t see how a comp tournament can be a true testament to an one armies strength compared to another. To use a sports analogy it would be like if two NBA players decided to play a game of basketball against each other, and because one player had a better scoring record for his technique they the judges decided to have that player put a weights in his tennis shoes and extra heavy armbands on his wrist to make it fair and then had the players face each other. If the player who wasn’t waited down won the game it isn’t a true testament to his strength it is a testament to the fact that he can win against the handicapped player. That’s all.


Warhammer isn't a sport its a wargame and hobby, part of the greater hobby of wargaming, comps are not about testing the strength of armies but trying to makesure everyone has fun whilst the winner is decided more by how he played his game than the models he bought. You take away comps and start seeing the problems of having books stretching over 3 editions of warhammer, hopefully once they update all the books to 8th comps wont be needed, until then they are so people who have bought the weaker books can still come along and enjoy playing new people. I can't imagine anything worse than some guy who has a Wood elf list having to play a skaven list.

Of course while non-comps are a testament to players who can win with weaker books (speaking of myself here :p) it takes away from the players who win because they have the strongest books.

Quote:
 
On a side, note I do have say thank you it really has been very interesting hearing about the tournament scene, or at least the independent tournament scene from you. I had no clue there was such big difference. Again, I’m not deriding it or claiming one is better I just think it is interesting. I hope to make it to the U.K someday and the abundance of Warhammer there is one of the perks along with the beer and other things that I look forward to..


If you want to drink beer you will fit in very well ;)

Quote:
 
Yeah, I agree completely with hounds versus dwarves. When I did league play more I would spam hounds against dwarven gunlines. The only problem I found with them is because they run out ahead of the units and with the low leadership they panic very easily, especially if the dwarf is using flaming attacks. I have had some good success with them though, believe it or not one time I actually had a warhound unit make it to and take out a three man warmachine crew. Now, granted the dwarf was extremely unlucky on his dice rolls and my dice were hot that whole game, but those little puppies damned well earn their points that night. I also think Chaos Spawn are actually pretty good as cheap target practice for dwarves and being unbreakable can mess up a warmachine crew if they make it there. Another thing I have pulled on my buddy and his gunline is have Wulfrik with a block of frenzied Marauders show up near him. That makes for a right proper surprise.


spamming hounds is the best way, best case they get into combat and lock them long enough so your infantry hit the lines, worse case they get shoot to bits by a organ gun and draw fire away from you other units. Me I have hound a unit of war hounds kill 2 cannons and organ gun in a single game, something to be said about hitting on 4's and wounding on 4's with only 3 models :)

Generally I don't have all that many issues with dwarf players, last decent one in played in a low comp tournament I got 17-3 victory over, this is game my hounds killed 3 warmachines lol! he was abit silly clumping them together.

spawn are abit expensive, I love the models and everything (well I use a pair of scyla models for bloodbeasts) but I think 8th nerfed them hard, they used annoy the hell out of my opponents with S&T5m even killed a few characters :)

Quote:
 
You want get an argument from me that we are good against high elves if marked with Tzeentch and hand weapon and shields, but then they have Teclis to fall back on, better speed so if they maneuver correctly they should be getting the charges off, etc.


Teclis is a pain in the arse to deal with, normally I have my DO's for him, deply one wide 3 deep and just aim attacks at him, he dies ;) always try and death snipe him as well. I usually include HW+SH warriors in my list as a sorcerer bunker as well as a very solid anvil.

Quote:
 
As regards, Ogres this is going to remain the only thing (other than our views on the marks) that are a point of contention. I don’t think I am making a mountain out of a mole him. The book is overpowered. Right now, Ogre Kingdoms are turning up winning tournaments from the U.S to Australia. What is behind this sudden global upsurge in OK players? Is there some kind of sudden collective burst of tactical brilliance that all of them had an epiphany on at the same time? Did the general of every other army all of sudden get hit with the stupid stick? I think not. Jeremy “King Midas” Vetok+New OK you figure out the rest of the equation.


The book isn't over powered! its fine, its just better than the old one, if books keep following this trend come end of next year we will have a very interesting book, I just hope the cater to the fluff players as well. I must explain this, I play fluffy armies because I got bored of competitive play, I go through stages, I started using the mono Tzeentch list for a while (6months or so) but I just can't stand the style. I play fluffy armies for the extra challenge more than anything else, I have found 8th such a good edition for my play style because its how I was already playing, my army just got a super buff from the change of focus. The previous edition was more about min max units of knights and monsters.

Quote:
 
You yourself have said that we have never been a top tier but always a solid mid tier army, although Daemons of Chaos were top tier in prior editions (and judging from the Ard Boyz results and seem to be holding their own now) I just want us to get to the upper deck at some point.


Daemons are about equal with warriors, personally I reserve top tier for the broken armies, DE, Lizards and skaven.
Edited by Kormak, Dec 6 2011, 10:07 AM.
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Terriss
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The Chosen
Kormak,

I came in the tail end of 7th edition, RIGHT when the WoC book came out (I think a weeek after.) I really don't remember seeing a Daemons book yet...but then again, I could be wrong, it was a long time ago.

In case you're wondering why in America WarHammer is so competitive, it's because WarHammer's competition is all designed to be very competitive, and it's all clunky as hell! How big is Magic the Gathering in the UK? Well, it's monstrous here, definitely more popular than WarHammer (they don't know what they're missing); the game is well done and all, but it's extremely competitive. I can open up my door and throw my Biochemistry textbook at the nearest store that runs weekly magic tournaments. Let me tell you, that's a heavy god damn book, too.

I played a few different miniatures games (MageKnight, Dungeons and Dragons minis, Kings of War, Warmachine) NOTHING is as streamlined as WarHammer. None of them come even close. WarHammer tends to lend itself to the feel of competitive play (at least in America), it just feels natural....although, drunk matches are about as fun as it gets.

I do have a question for you; you mentioned in a previous post that the Hell Cannon gets a ward save for being treated as a Monster and Handlers? Perhaps I am misquoting you, or perhaps I read it wrong, but would you mind explaining that? I would love for my dear Helicannon to get a ward save...
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