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New Armybook Wishlisting!; Let's wishlist here
Topic Started: Nov 24 2011, 03:45 PM (1,017 Views)
rothgar13
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Clanlord
I'm digging that character, Kormak. Let's talk pricing - I think 70-75 points is about fair for that guy. What say you?
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Judgex83
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The leech lord
yeah we couldnt take away the one thing that makes HEs good :(
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Judgex83
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The leech lord
Kormak
Nov 26 2011, 01:03 AM
Judgex83
Nov 25 2011, 10:50 PM
MoN is already -1 to hit and its borderline useless.


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MoN is -1ws and -1 to with shooting, it is actually far from useless, WS3 hits basic warriors on a 5+, plenty of WS3 units and good for reducing incoming attacks of cheap horde uints, or sauras, or graveguard. -1 to hit in CC is actually very different and draws inspiration from older slaanesh rules, -1 to hit means most things hit them on a 5+, of course the other option is enemies in B2B being halve WS (used to be a slaanesh banner). I would also keep the immune to fear, etc.]


Maybe where you play theres alot of WS3 guys but where I play theres mostly elves,WoC,Beastmen using gors as core, and the one ogre player but I have not had a game with his ogres yet so WS4 is the norm at my store.


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[It makes no sense when chaos warriors and characters do not cause fear, why are they more scary than chaos warriors? Why are they more scary than a chaos lord with 6 arms 4 with giant claws and a massive axe dripping with bloody riding a chaos steed? They are not, its a silly rule that never made sense in context of the rest of he army. when all cavalry cause fear then maybe chaos knights should, until then I don't think so, they never used to and I would rather have cheaper knights than fear causing chaos knights.
I agree that are warriors should cause fear since reputation by itself can be a weapon but thats a weapon they decided to give to undead and not chaos warriors. The warriors of codex suffers from the same problem alot of codexes do. It was made before the percentage system back when you could take 3 min units of marauders if you wanted and meet the core requirements and then spend 1000 pts making a ridiculous unit of chaos knights. 40 points didnt matter back then but now its alot to pay for a 1 wound model. So i agree that if dropping fear shaved a few points off of knights then its a great idea.

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Actually they don't, not if you change the eye the gods rule and allow chaos warriors/knights to accept challenges, champions do not lock lords in combat, they challenge protect your own characters.

Thats another use for them so Ill just agree to prevent any arguments


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Than enscrolled weapons get rethought ;) I think its wierd that chaos knights have them but chosen and heroes don't, why just chaos knights? makes no sense at all.
I agree on the chosen part of this but heros have better options available to them so its not much of a problem

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She is terrible, her use it eye of the gods rerolls, yeah that sounds really in character for Khorne, I take you haven't played any of the previous edition.

I have played other editions and I didnt say she was the end all of characters I said ive seen her used to great effect. No unit in the book is bad maybe overcosted but it just takes someone with the right mindset to use, now I know some will disagree but whatever thats your opinion and im not going to debate opinions.

[
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They are actually doing it with the traitor legions in 40k hence why I mentioned it, having just the core daemons is something that keeps both parties happy. Daemons have their unique units while warriors still have the wanted daemon support that makes the army feel more chaotic, also means they can be pointed differently in relation to internal balance. Something to keep in mind is without heralds they wouldn't as good either so this gives the daemon pure player a reason to use a pure daemon army
.

I was not aware that they wre putting in the actual stat lines for plaguebearers and blood letters and such. I knew thet had the 12 point generic crap that wasnt worth using since for 3 more points you got a chaos marine. If this is true then maybe there is a chance im not counting on it thou. I think chaos dwarves officially put into are book rather thena forge world book is more likely.

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[Plenty of players did it with the HoC book because they could actually mount a magic defense and really its no different than dwarfs, if you make it so they can actually stop the worse spells then people won't mind the risk. You don't do it like before when you could generate 12 dispel dice, just something like the dwarfs count as a level 2.

If your using a Khorne army you don't want a magic phase, you just want to be able to counter enough of your opponents so the game is worth playing.

I havent played a dwarf player in years so I dont remember how their magic worked all i remember is them having some anvil that messed with magic.
Edited by Judgex83, Nov 26 2011, 03:34 AM.
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
@ rothgar13 - Well I would say about 75pts for the stats and 25pts for the rules, I would then have armies lead by a khorne characters but include no wizards always add +2 to their dispel attempts, you then have the priest allowed to dispel as a lvl1 sorcerer.

Powers:

1: all wizards (friend or foe) will miscast on any roll of a double
2: Unit is subject to Hatred in the following CC phase
3: Unit weapons gain the AP special rule
4: All spells in the following magic phase have their casting values increase by 4

something like that.



Judgex83
Nov 26 2011, 03:10 AM
Maybe where you play theres alot of WS3 guys but where I play theres mostly elves,WoC,Beastmen using gors as core, and so on so WS4 is the norm at my store.


So you have no lizardmen, skaven, empire, ogres, orc, daemon (plague bearers) or VC players (graveguard & black knights) in your area? ok, MoN is still good against elves and dwarfs for the extra -1 to hit.


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I agree that are warriors should cause fear since reputation by itself can be a weapon but thats a weapon they decided to give to undead and not chaos warriors. The warriors of codex suffers from the same problem alot of codexes do. It was made before the percentage system back when you could take 3 min units of marauders if you wanted and meet the core requirements and then spend 1000 pts making a ridiculous unit of chaos knights. 40 points didnt matter back then but now its alot to pay for a 1 wound model. So i agree that if dropping fear shaved a few points off of knights then its a great idea.


I actually don't think chaos warriors should cause fear, all it does is bump up the points for no real reason.

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I agree on the chosen part of this but heros have better options available to them so its not much of a problem


Its not about having better options, its about what makes sense, just makes no sense that chaos knights have them and no one else does.

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I have played other editions and I didnt say she was the end all of characters I said ive seen her used to great effect. No unit in the book is bad maybe overcosted but it just takes someone with the right mindset to use, now I know some will disagree but whatever thats your opinion and im not going to debate opinions.


My point is I want characterful Khorne characters, she is not a character Khorne character, she is a EotG gimik character who is best used with warhsrines, trolls and chosen...

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I was not aware that they wre putting in the actual stat lines for plaguebearers and blood letters and such. I knew thet had the 12 point generic crap that wasnt worth using since for 3 more points you got a chaos marine. If this is true then maybe there is a chance im not counting on it thou. I think chaos dwarves officially put into are book rather thena forge world book is more likely.


Well that is the rumour and I think it would be nice if WoC had something similar, I also believe CD are being done for something else.

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I havent played a dwarf player in years so I dont remember how their magic worked all i remember is them having some anvil that messed with magic.


They can always dispel as a lvl2, they also have the extra dice but I think changing that to channeling would be more balanced.
Edited by Kormak, Nov 26 2011, 03:49 AM.
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Judgex83
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The leech lord
Nope there actually is no lizardmen,skaven,empire,orcs or demons. We do have an ogre player but I havent played him yet. My store is mostly filled with the elitest players that look down their noses at something if it isnt ws5 I5 10 billion attacks each. The same crowd thats filled with space wolf cavalry armies and blood angel sillyness. Im just glad that highelves have to spend the same amount of points on core as everyone else now.I take nurgle because im so used to being shot that the -1 helps so maybe calling it useless was wrong. Your right valkia isnt very khorne like at all.
Edited by Judgex83, Nov 26 2011, 03:57 AM.
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TheOneHawk
Warrior of the Chamber
Mark of Nurgle is in the same boat as MoK and MoS this edition. It's not useless, and it's actually rather a bargain for its points, however MoT is so ridiculously OP that everything else gets thrown by the wayside. The fact that we can get 3+ wards on 4 characters in an army when most other armies can get 2 4+ wards at best is kind of ridiculous (Archaon, ToP, AoD, GEoT)

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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
lol! Lizardmen are one of the best armies in the game!!!! especially because of all the sillyness slann do in the magic phase with lore of life, I think those guys need to play against a proper lizardmen army, T8 Saurus for the win ;)

Space wolves and BA so yesterday, its all grey knights with force weapons ;) I love my grey knights.

Well you talking to a mono Khorne player since 4th ed and I refuse to take Valkia in my list, considering I always used to take Arbaal I think that says leaps and bounds about her ;)

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Jack of Blades
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Slave
[ * ]
- Marks that are not no-brainers. Marks that are all pro-active, for example if Khorne gives Frenzy and Slaanesh gives Unbreakable that's bad because the mark of Slaanesh wouldn't do something. Every mark should always be useful so nothing like Armour Piercing or the current mark of Nurgle that only works against certain weapon skills and such. Marks should be priced per model, not per unit.

I personally want to see something like this for the marks:

Mark of Chaos Undivided
Being Undivided should not be a disadvantage, but being unmarked should be. The problem with the mark of Undivided is that it's the generic mark so there's no real theme for it, but I'm sure that can be solved.
Mark of Khorne
Frenzy. Characters get Hatred and MR1 too.
Mark of Tzeentch
Can re-roll 1 dice per turn. Characters can re-roll more dice per turn. Combat characters can pay to become wizards. Wizards of Tzeentch get +1 to cast.
Mark of Nurgle
+1 Toughness, Fear and Poisoned Attacks. A non-Nurgle model in base to base contact with a character of Nurgle at the start of any magic phase must pass a Toughness test or suffer a wound with no armour saves allowed.
--- This is the most difficult mark because the troops should have +1 Toughness, Fear and Poisoned Attacks to reflect fluff but that's a lot. I decided that I wish for it anyway.
Mark of Slaanesh
I don't know yet, some offensive effect. Characters halve the Weapon Skill and Initiative of all enemy models in base contact unless they pass a -2/3 Leadership test.


- Chaos magic's raw nature to be reflected in the rules. Currently there's no difference between the magic of something else and the magic of a Chaos sorcerer who supposedly uses raw magic and blabla.

- Combat characters that are good for more than just killing stuff so you can justify including them over 18 more Chaos warriors. TK's combat characters are good examples.

- Some things, like the marks, will need to be relatively powerful to accurately reflect fluff. This should not be feared - the points should just be costed appropriately and the effects shouldn't go too overboard.

- More Chaosy effects. Make me feel like I'm playing an army of Chaos. Tamurkhan's Paragon rules have a good start at this but it can be developed further.

- General internal balance fixes like great weapon point costs on marauders, the point costs of manticores and shaggoths and so on, so on.
Edited by Jack of Blades, Nov 26 2011, 10:13 AM.
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cross
The Chosen
dwarven runelord of khorne!!

same set up as a sorcerer except you have a number of runes you can choose/roll for. the more runes the more you pay. has +1/2 to dispel depending on level and magic resistance 2/3. has chaos armour and an an allowance for demonic gifts.

this is what i wish for when i think mono khorne army.
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
Hi Jack, Logan here, interesting ideas but....

Jack of Blades
Nov 26 2011, 10:11 AM
- Marks that are not no-brainers. Marks that are all pro-active, for example if Khorne gives Frenzy and Slaanesh gives Unbreakable that's bad because the mark of Slaanesh wouldn't do something. Every mark should always be useful so nothing like Armour Piercing or the current mark of Nurgle that only works against certain weapon skills and such. Marks should be priced per model, not per unit.


While I agree that marks need to be equal I don't think making them super poweful is the way the to go, you need to keep them interesting, fluffy and useable, you can easily do this without giving every mark a million rules. I think the way to do this is first address Khorne, it really is the power house, while it should be it makes the other marks harder to keep in line. Personally I don't like Khorne as frenzy, his daemons don't have it, why should hos followers?

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Mark of Chaos Undivided
Being Undivided should not be a disadvantage, but being unmarked should be. The problem with the mark of Undivided is that it's the generic mark so there's no real theme for it, but I'm sure that can be solved.


I would actually suggest that MoU should be reroll failed panic tests rather than a armywide rule, just means when you upgrade your units you actually lose something.

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Mark of Khorne
Frenzy. Characters get Hatred and MR1 too.


Devastating charge actually seems like a pretty good fit here, I think the +1 attack on the charge represents the bloodlust on the first round of combat, I think then warrior priests should be the way to keep them buffed. IP is certainly something else they should have and MR1, just makes them a good offensive unit rather than a good offensive and defensive unit and also removes the issue of chasing people round like headless chickens, this actually goes against their character, they are meant to be great warriors, not idiots.

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Mark of Tzeentch
Can re-roll 1 dice per turn. Characters can re-roll more dice per turn. Combat characters can pay to become wizards. Wizards of Tzeentch get +1 to cast.


+1 to cast is a must, making heroes sorcerers is a interesting idea, I did kinda like it but I also remember before when your heroes did the killing and your sorcerers did the magic. I think if you want rerolls, sorcerers and a +1 cast your neglecting the units somewhat, I think you want something that is equally as good on units. I guess really you need to think of a roll within the army for the mark, if its magic related then perhaps chaos warriors should have a bound spell with power is based on the unit size.

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Mark of Nurgle
+1 Toughness, Fear and Poisoned Attacks. A non-Nurgle model in base to base contact with a character of Nurgle at the start of any magic phase must pass a Toughness test or suffer a wound with no armour saves allowed.
--- This is the most difficult mark because the troops should have +1 Toughness, Fear and Poisoned Attacks to reflect fluff but that's a lot. I decided that I wish for it anyway.


T5 Chaos warriors is just to much, Regen atleast can be dealt with thanks to all the flaming weapons, fear is certainly fine and reflects the pictures rather well. You don't really need much more than that.

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Mark of Slaanesh
I don't know yet, some offensive effect. Characters halve the Weapon Skill and Initiative of all enemy models in base contact unless they pass a -2/3 Leadership test.


I think halving WS and I is abit much, I'd say WS is more than enough and the obvious IP as well

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- General internal balance fixes like great weapon point costs on marauders, the point costs of manticores and shaggoths and so on, so on.


Its more than pricing with the shaggoth, its being only T5 thats a issue, just means it dies to S4 models rather easily, needs buffing more than anything.
Edited by Kormak, Nov 26 2011, 07:37 PM.
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Jack of Blades
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Slave
[ * ]
Ahoy Logan. You know, after some deliberation I actually agree with what you say. I haven't read about the khornate warrior priest ideas though. And when I look back at my idea for MoT, re-rolling 1 dice for RnF is too good - it practically grants marauders hatred (unless we remove marks for marauders as we agreed we wanted to a while ago).

A bound spell for units makes sense, the trouble would be with power dice, just like with horrors. That's solvable though.

But how to implement regeneration without it clashing with the parry save? do we simply let them take both saves?

WS will do indeed.

Of course it is, I just wanted to make some short examples. I think the shaggoth should get T6, a point cost reduction and something to set it apart from other monsters (like the k'daai destroyer).



I won't even try to make new marks now haha, I started but Tzeentch is just too hard. Grant units a bound spell and you have to decide whether to grant them PD to use it with or not, then you have to figure out something to give to fighty characters which doesn't benefit units and doesn't make them fightier than Khorne, you'll want to keep the ability for fighty characters to become wizards as that's what Tzeentch blesses people with but you can't make them automatically become wizards because that would unfluffily make pure sorcerers obsolete unless you restrict magic levels of fighty characters which I'm not a fan of.

Nurgle is easy. Poisoned Attacks and Fear, maybe with Regeneration 6+ that works with ward saves. Actually Nurgle isn't as easy as it seems, my mind is still boggled by needing to implement both Nurgle's toughness and Nurgle's plague spreading into the troops. I know we discussed Warshrine effects earlier but that'd mean everyone would have to drag along a bunch of them which isn't good design imo.

Slaanesh halves the WS of enemy models in base contact, rounding down. It's a powerful effect but it's also the way to do Slaanesh justice. If the marks aren't done justice I don't care about them. However this effect is really good so I don't know... I don't want it to be overpowered either and there's the problem of making it better than Khorne to consider.

Speaking of Khorne, how do we make it the premier combat mark without making the other marks obsolete but not having to make Khorne overpowered to make it the premier combat mark?

I leave this to the designers :D
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theorox
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Clanlord
New Mark idea:

MoK: Frenzy and MR(1)
MoT:Same as now, ward caps at 4+.
MoN: -1 to hit with shooting and enemies get -1 WS always, Immune to Poison.
MoS: Same as now and AP.

Something like that.

Eye of Khorne: (2D6)

2-4: The Eye is Closed
5-6: +1 A
7-8: +1 Str
9-10: MR(3)
11: Hatred (All enemies)
12: Heroic Killing Blow

Eye of Nurgle: (2D6)

2-4: The Eye is Closed
5-6: +1 A
7-8: +1 T
9-10: Str3 AP Breath weapon
11: Cause Terror
12: Regeneration (3+) and Poisoned attacks

Eye of Slaanesh: (2D6)

2-4: The Eye is Closed.
5-6: +1 A
7-8: +1 WS and I
9-10: Poisoned attacks
11: Enemies must pass LD test to be able to attack.
12: ASF and Ignore Armoursaves.

Something like that is what I'd like. Would need some internal balance though. :)

Theo
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Judgex83
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The leech lord
Mark of nurgle used to be how you suggest Theo and they errated it real quick since it was a bit silly for nurgle warriors to hit everything on 3s even other warriors. I dont think T5 would be to bad if it came with a penalty like -1 to initative like plague marines. I dont think marks should be completly good since the dark gods are all jerks and enjoy watching death no matter who it is. I like frenzy it has a downside it is really good in combat but it turns your army into a bunch of lunatics who cant control themselves, It should be eternal frenzy thou. Mark of tzeentch would be fine as a 5 up ward but make them suffer in a different way like -1 WS to reprensent the reliance on magic has hurt their ability to fight in melee. AP doesnt make sense for slanesh because nothing about slanesh says they are better fighters then everyone else which is what AP would represent. Making them I6 would be overkill so I guess ASF would be the best choice but give them stupidity to represent their overactive senses taking in everything around them.
Edited by Judgex83, Nov 26 2011, 10:57 PM.
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JaBol On
Warrior of the Chamber
Ahh..Judgex83, what happened to the original Slaaneshremark?? I personally likes the old minies (and looking at the pricing on the net others do as well). ASF and stupidity makes good sense both balancevise and with the fluff. I do not play Slaanesh but are considering making a slaaneshhero using Rose (from Banelegions). My gaminggroup are around 30 in age and most have wives/girlfriends so hopefully nobody are going to get offended!
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Judgex83
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The leech lord
JaBol On
Nov 26 2011, 11:25 PM
Ahh..Judgex83, what happened to the original Slaaneshremark?? I personally likes the old minies (and looking at the pricing on the net others do as well). ASF and stupidity makes good sense both balancevise and with the fluff. I do not play Slaanesh but are considering making a slaaneshhero using Rose (from Banelegions). My gaminggroup are around 30 in age and most have wives/girlfriends so hopefully nobody are going to get offended!
Lol i removed my original comment because my hatred for that specific god was showing. they put boobs on a worm i mean come on seriously. Im not a prude by any means but somethings just look stupid and the constant use of breasts is one of them.
Edited by Judgex83, Nov 26 2011, 11:45 PM.
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