| Welcome to The Chamber of the Everchosen. We hope you enjoy your visit! Here at COTEC we are all about the Warriors of Chaos in Warhammer Fantasy Battle. Tactics to help you slaughter your opponent on the tabletop, through to galleries on how to build your next Warshrine. Its all covered... and growing! We are a forum for gamers and hobbyist alike and again would like to welcome you to a fun, friendly, warm place and hope to see you again! Join our legion! Takes less than a minute and gives you access to everything! If you're already a member please log in to your account by entering the correct runes and words of power: |
| New Armybook Wishlisting!; Let's wishlist here | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 24 2011, 03:45 PM (1,016 Views) | |
| Kormak | Nov 27 2011, 12:33 AM Post #31 |
|
High Executioner of Khorne
|
@Jack - I remember Synggy mentioned one some time ago, I actually think its a very interesting way to give the mono Khorne player something he wants that also combined lists can take advantage of. A limited magic phase that isn't about blasting the crap out of people, it really more inspiring followers into more savage acts of carnage and making hell for enemy casters. As for MoT I assumed you meant 1 reroll for the unit rather every model, perhaps chaos just needs to be completely rethought rather than taking old ideas from previous marks. I think the reroll had it days and frankly it wasn't amazing, I dunno I liking the idea of having bound magic on characters and units, I don't think they should be able to channel, having limited powerdice is think is exactly the flaw the mark needs to keep it balanced, I think the way to go is units have it different kind of bound spell to characters something like: 1-9: bound level 4, 12" range 2D6 S2 AP hits 10-18: Bound level 6, 18" range, 2D6 S3 AP hits 19+ : Bound level 8 range 24", 3D6 S3 AP hits You give the characters something like: Bound lvl6, may reroll failed armour saves for the remainder of the turn Well Regen is simple, the unit just gains a 5+ regen save, while yes it replaces the function of the current Tzeentch warriors it actually fits with the fluff, make them cause fear because its no over powered but will have still have a effect on the game. Atleast with regen all it requires is a flaming weapon to remove the save for the turn keeping it from being over powering but also makes it worth taking just over a HW+SH. Well I think immune to lightning based attacks, good stats including I4 really do set it apart from other monsters, perhaps 4+ scaly skin save again like it used to so it has a 3+ save again or give it the option for heavy armour. Well with Khorne you have so many options other than frenzy which frankly is terrible as a mark, you can do: reroll to hit every turn Hatred Devastating charge IP KB Increased WS give them some sort of weapon upgrade (weapons of khorne) MR May not purse or reform after defeating a enemy in combat The last one I will explain, they take trophies, so how exactly are they doing this is they never stop, you could expand this even more so that that enemies with 8" must take a panic test as they watch their comrades being slaughtered by the Khorne warriors. Does this make sense? well yeah sure, just because they are removed as a casualty doesn't mean they are dead, they could just be laying on the floor bleeding to death, perfect chancing to starting cutting heads off guys and strapping the to their armour. Problem with Frenzy it has so many draws back, far more than say -1 I, you have: Can't flee forced charges Forced chasing (which in itself leaves very expensive units open to nasty counter attacks heavy reliance on a BSB Now we factor in the current mark No magic users If I'm honest if I wasn't such a Khorne fluff fan I wouldn't use, I mean you have little control over your army, if you want a proper fluffy army then certain armies will just walk over you in the magic phase. Personally I think devastating charge and IP is the way to go forward and the pros and cons I think balance out. Basically you have: Good on charge Immune to fear vs No better than a standard warrior when charged (still good) Can't flee Warshrines working with the marks can only really create good army synergy, you don't need to take them but obviously its to your advantage, of course if you do take them then your plans can fall apart if they are taken out.
If you went +1T on MoN then the advantages heavily out weigh the -1I value, this isn't the same as MoK and frankly if you read the fluff champions of khorne are tad more than a bunch on lunatics. Considering Khorne respects great warriors and generals to have his guys as a bunch of tactically inept idiots makes no sense at all. Winning a combat doesn't matter if you killed a 200pts and just opened you flank or rear to a counter charge, Khorne warriors are not orcs or beastmen. Edited by Kormak, Nov 27 2011, 12:39 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| rothgar13 | Nov 27 2011, 07:41 AM Post #32 |
![]()
Clanlord
|
Heck, right now Khorne Warriors are even crazier than Beastmen - only Minotaurs are Frenzied on a regular basis in that army. It'll be interesting to see what they do about that. I'm really digging these Bound Spells to replace typical spellcasting, as well. Edited by rothgar13, Nov 27 2011, 07:41 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| Kormak | Nov 27 2011, 10:26 AM Post #33 |
|
High Executioner of Khorne
|
Well in truth I doubt they will do anything about, the MoK was done in a very sloppy way last time and I don't expect that will change, I full expect MoK will just be frenzy. If we are lucky it will include MR but if it does it will be hideously over priced. Well I wasn't thinking it should replace it, I think sorcerers should still have access to the lore of Tzeentch, just thinking of a different spin on Tzeentch/ BTW did you ever see the chaos rewrite I did? |
![]() |
|
| rothgar13 | Nov 27 2011, 10:27 AM Post #34 |
![]()
Clanlord
|
I don't think I did, no. I wouldn't mind a link via PM or something. |
![]() |
|
| Kormak | Nov 27 2011, 10:31 AM Post #35 |
|
High Executioner of Khorne
|
http://s4.zetaboards.com/cotec/topic/942365/1/ Jack actually helped abit on warseer with it and it isn't finished yet, as you will see I have had other ideas in this tread since I did it, like daenomic mounts giving you access to knights on juggers etc rather than having a separate unit type. Edited by Kormak, Nov 27 2011, 10:34 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| JaBol On | Nov 27 2011, 07:24 PM Post #36 |
|
Warrior of the Chamber
|
Fair, even good things can get to much attention! I miss the old Slaaneshsnake though. Such a cool mount and lots of convertions options (such as removing said bodyparts). I never did take you for a prude btw, I thought you removed the comment to be political correct by not using any "bad" words! |
![]() |
|
| Kormak | Dec 6 2011, 03:58 AM Post #37 |
|
High Executioner of Khorne
|
Right I thought I was start on this again, this is what I want to see from the new Chaos book: Heroes - I want to exalted heroes bumped up to T5 and basically their stats to follow the standard fomular of increase from standard troops, I also want to see some marauder characters added, Orc and goblins have goblin and marauder characters, why can Chaos? I would also like to see marauder sorcerers have access to different lore than the standard chaos ones. You want a cheap sorcerer then you have to take lores of fire and beast with no access to chaos lores. You want a Chaos warrior sorcerer then you have access to shadow, death or marked lores. Daemons princes need to get some sort of buff, I see this being done one of three ways, either its a upgrade to a chaos lord, they can take magic items or they seriously revamp the gifts so you don't have to always use him as a wizard, chaos armour as standard as well! Troops - I want to see marauders lose marks of chaos, sure you have tribes that worship the chaos gods but until they prove themselves buy going to the chaos wastes they won't be noticed. I think this helps solve the problem of MoK marauders just being simply better than the rest, I would also change the base size of marauders back to 20mm. Chaos warriors I think just need tweaking, halberds need a price increase, great weapons possibly stay the same or go down, perhaps even bring the I value down to 4. Having a slightly lower I value might actually make the halberds less of a auto use option over great weapons. I want to see bigger armies of chaos warriors! Specials - I want to see chaos knights decreased in price slightly, possibly even access to daenomic mounts (perhaps linked to your general), the other option is of course chosen knights but then I think that takes something away from Chosen. I would like to see chosen changed from a gimik unit that whole purpose is to rely on a warshrine and magic items to become a optimal unit, I would rather I bought them and could either pay for a unit upgrade (like a mutation) or they had some sort of special rule. Perhaps giving them enscrolled weapons rather than knights could be interesting, any weapon they carry is magical and grants a additional point. Perhaps a special rule that is based aroung them using great weapons (that is however what they are armed with). Maybe they could come with a wardsave as standard like a 5+, buff them to WS7? reduce the points or they could act to inspire units nearby, make them stubborn? Forsaken I want to see become a useful unit, rather than have frenzy give them the standard D3+1/2 attacks, make them skirmish, give them vanguard, perhaps scouts? Ogres I think need a serious look at, maybe give them chaos armour as standard, drop the points and give them impacts hits like other ogres? I was never really all that keen on them having marks either. What about giving dragon ogres T5, other than that leave them pretty much the same or perhaps with the option for chaos armour? I mean doesn't chaos armour make sense given the fluff? Maybe not both but give them a 6+ scaly skin save and chaos armour and suddenly they are massiely more survivable in combat! I would like to see some sort of daemon unit added, be it special or rare, if not daemons then harpies, we really need some sort of flying unit to compensate for the lack of shooting. I just wish trolls could have weapon options like back in the old days to really make them stand apart from normal trolls, bring back the great weapons, I want something other than a gimik to make them stand out from the orc trolls. Maybe make them tougher? funno, just something Rare - Shaggoth needs to be buffed, Chaos armour and scaly skin 5+? either that or T6? perhaps they should also be immune to HKB? This also applies to dragon ogres but what about it lightning attacks rather than making them frenzied actually heal them? that seems to be supported by the fluff right? is it broken? hell no, whos going to shoot lightning at them! The hellcannon I think should be made weaker in combat, reduced WS and S possibly, cheaper but tougher (T7), maybe make it a warmachine that can fight rather than a monster than can shoot? bring it down to more like 150pts? Spawn need a serious look at, currently they are just a complete waste of points, i think they really need better stats, perhaps more like scyla with Regen 5+ or something? Warshrines again are a gimik to spam to the eotg table, I would rather they had some sort of tactical use on the table, I take a Khorne one, enemy spells targetting units within 12" increase the difficulty by 2 or miscast on a double? If daemons/flyers not added as special then add them here, either some generic unit that be upgraded to represent units of each of the gods or just the core daemons. Marks - I want to see these have some sort of synergy so when used together you can cover all your bases but also very viable as a mono god list, try and please both parties rather than just one. What I really hate about the current marks is you go "right I want a BSB, well I will give him the MoT because thats the best for him" I want me to look at the marks and thing "hmm, what do I want my character to do?" I want a strong fighter but don't want to use a wizard, guess I will take MoK, I want some sort of tactical advantage guess thats Tzeentch (thing grand strategy from the grey knights codex, not exactly"). Magic Items - We all know its going to get cut alot, perhaps another way to make character choices less automatic is to add back the mark restrictions on items? want a awesome fighter, then I guess its the axe of Khorne and I guess I need a Khorne hero. I would also like to see the spelleater shield make a return, maybe any spell that rolls a double when casting on the unit is lost for the remainder of the battle on a roll of a 4+ after the spell is resolved? might help with the "lets roll 6 dice for fun" crowd. I want to see two special characters for every god, one lord and one hero, I would, if they don't have models scrap them and bring back some of the more old school ones. Bring back arbaal and replace his steed with a jugger, he could be a interesting way to bring in daemonic cavalry units for khorne units! Bring back Valnir, we miss you engrim and you dragon! who knows maybe he could use lore of light as well as Tzeentch (considering his fluff). Just some random ideas anyways :) |
![]() |
|
| Keltazaer | Dec 7 2011, 05:53 AM Post #38 |
|
Warrior of the Chamber
|
I have been thinking on the subjects presented here for awhile and I think a lot of the ideas presented here are good. First as to marks: Khorne and frenzy are classic, they go back a ways and as much as I think devastating charge would be more fitting (with a points drop or some magic resistance) they will probably get frenzy again. Tzeentch I think should staty the same as it is now, the ward save thing is fluffy and useful. It should go up in points to 15 for combat characters (wards saves are 15 per point) and 30 points for a unit or caster. Nurgle I think should become +1 toughness It makes them resilient without muddying the waters between him and Tz. Maybe a price increase to 20/25 points for a character 40/50 points for a unit? Slaanesh is tricky, it needs to be as good as other marks and be somewhat unique. I actually think ASF would be good priced at 25 points for a character and 50 points for a unit. The reroll issue would be mitigated by... Changing warriors to I4. I have thought about it and it makes sense to me. Most elite humans are I4 and as good as warriors are I4 still puts them going before most stuff. It would somewhat balance the halberd vs. great weapon issue. Also I feel it just feels right, Chaos warriors are already superhumanly strong and tough do they need speed too? I also think anything in Chaos armor should cause fear. Having only knights cause fear when a mounted hero or lord doesn't seems a little strange. Also at this point fear doesn't do much as it has been nerfed by 8th. More importantly its makes warriors immune fear, which they should be IMHO, and this helps mitigate the universal LD8 which is mostly reliable but can be embarrassing at times. I think /combat Lords need a price drop and so do knights. They are still very good but not worth what you have to spend on them. Since I don't run chosen I won't comment but I do think the EotG mechanic is completely wacky. |
![]() |
|
| Kormak | Dec 7 2011, 09:41 AM Post #39 |
|
High Executioner of Khorne
|
Think with MoT and +1 wardsave and MoN and +1 T is you are basically creating two marks to do the same thing, resiliance, what your going to find is people take nurgle units and Tzeentch characters with a 3+ wardsave. I think +1T is abit much for core troops, I would rather go down the regen route, its good no matter who you give it to but not over the top when given to a character. I think the problem with ASF and slaanesh is really the massive buff it gives, S6 chaos warriors striking in I order, S5 chaos warriors rerolling to hit? res please, suddenly slaanesh is the best combat mark, this should really be what khorne does (reroll to hit is better than +1 attack because of supporting attacks). Dunno about chaos warriors causing fear, I would rather knights didn't cause fear at all, its nice being immune to fear but perhaps it isn't needed, Khorne is immune, slaanesh is immune, nurgle should be (as it should cause fear). Leave Tzeentch slightly vulnerable to it, maybe head back to the magic routes! |
![]() |
|
| Judgex83 | Dec 7 2011, 10:19 PM Post #40 |
|
The leech lord
|
See now ive seen alot of ppl say make Nurgle a 5+ regen and I dont think that would be fair at all. If your going to make MoN a regen give us the full 4+ especially if were talking about giving slanesh ASF. Hell I think posioned attacks would be better then a crappy 5+ what are those the warriors nurgle kinda likes but doesnt quiet like enough to give them a decent buff? Making MoN a buff that has a much higher chance of failing then succeding is BS IMO. Does slanesh ever fail its ASF, does khorne ever fail its frenzy unless it loses its combat and Tzeentch I wont even touch because Its going to be a ward save again and we all have to accept this because tzeentch is all about the magic and a ward save shows this best. How about the writers of are next book just do what they ment to do in the first place make MoN -1 to hit because -1 WS doesnt make sense at all. Im a great knight and I dominate in combat but your all gross and covered in flies, My skill with my sword isnt hindered by this but my ability to see past the gross amount of flies is, The ability to hit should be affected not your WS.
Edited by Judgex83, Dec 7 2011, 10:29 PM.
|
![]() |
|
| Kormak | Dec 8 2011, 12:37 AM Post #41 |
|
High Executioner of Khorne
|
5+ is fine, it negates 33% of the hits while stops it from being to over the top, I think a 4+ would be more acceptable if they didn't already have chaos armour! a 6+ would be crappy, a 5+ is reasonable and 4+ is good! Does Khorne ever fails its Frenzy? no but frenzy has its own draw backs, berserk rage, not being able to reform after a combat, if they wipe them out on the charge they have to overrun, if they flee they have to chase. Frenzy is a two edge sword really. You are being rather silly if you think Tzeentch is going to be a wardsave again, hell the nerfed MoN because they thought it was to good, you really think they wont change MoT? Its been different every single edition! (which is rather fitting), its been: enemy spells targetting character are cancelled on 4+ (4th) May reroll a single dice and +1/-1 (5th) Heroes are lvl2 wizards, lords are lvl4, unites generate PD (6th) +1 wardsave (7th) I don't think a single mark has been that consistant through out the editions, Mark of khorne was: frenzy + chaos armour (4th and 5th) Frenzy + dispel dice (6th) Frenzy (7th) Seriously, MoT isn't designed for 8th ed, it isn't designed with HW+SH granting a wardsave, when it was created HW+SH was a additional +1 save (so warriors had a 2+ save) and the the army didn't have any decent wardsaves, it was either bad (like a 6+) or had some restrictions (only against shooting, only against mundane attacks). Slaanesh doesn't have ASF either, it has immune to fear, panic and terror...... MoN would have made sense if it didn't effect shooting, if it was a straight up -1 to hit in combat then it would have been basically the old cloud of flies gift, it isn't the case. |
![]() |
|
| Judgex83 | Dec 8 2011, 01:04 AM Post #42 |
|
The leech lord
|
So the khorne player is fine with MoN sucking how surprising. Im not talking about marks on lords and heroes im talking about them on units. I dont know about you but its my units that do the majority of my killing. The ward save makes sense. they will probably just put a cap on it such as it cant be improved apon in anyway for units, for lords and heroes they might still be able to get a silly wardsave but it will probably have a hefty cost and if you want to spend 500pts just on your lord go right ahead as far as im concerned. Mark of nurgle was really good but when they nerfed it they made it mediocre what they should of done was rethought the mark. I know slanesh doesnt have ASF I was using that as part of my argument because ASF for slanesh is one of the most common suggestions ive heard for the new mark of slanesh .You seem to be stuck with how things used to be, the past editions do not dictate the future.
Edited by Judgex83, Dec 8 2011, 01:09 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| Kormak | Dec 8 2011, 01:16 AM Post #43 |
|
High Executioner of Khorne
|
Well then whats the issue? 5+ regen is good on a unit, it like what Tzeentch have now but allows them to use a halberd, so how is this sucky? explain to this to me, I am very curious. You can't just talk about how the marks effects unit, you have to talk about how they effect characters as well ;) Marks on giants is stupid btw, I have seen plenty of people suggest ASF on slaanesh and its a stupid idea. I actually have a Tzeentch and Khorne army thanks, might want to get your facts right in future ;) I also collected Nurgle back in 5th ed as well, I decided to concentrate more on Khorne with 6th ed as I loved how you could do a viable mono Khorne army. The wardsave makes no sense at all, its just open to abuse like with Tzeentch chosen, so they are lucky and as such can have a 3+ wardsave and be stubborn??? erm sorry? what? I have used them many times and I think they are filthy, so much so I can't use my Tzeentch army anymore, its just so boring and uninspired, problem is people read a small part of the fluff and ignore the rest, Tzeentch about change, not luck, he is about controlling people fate, throwing away his puppets when he gets bored, 3+ wardsave obviously reflects this and how all his champions are cunning and manipulative. Edited by Kormak, Dec 8 2011, 01:22 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| Judgex83 | Dec 8 2011, 01:23 AM Post #44 |
|
The leech lord
|
I said you didnt care about MoN I didnt mention tzeentch at all as far as armies you played. Why are marks on giants stupid? A giant is very destructive in combat and It would draw the attention of the gods and a giant has alot of potential for chaos gifts. A 5 up regen gets negated by umm I dont know a 10 point banner and an entire lore of magic which a ward save does not. I dont even want nurgle to be a regen I would rather it be -1 to hit or even posioned attacks but if its going to be a regen I want it to be good. I never said that the ward save should be a 5+ for tzeentch. I remember reading that the wardsave was his warriors being able to see a dozen different futures so the wardsave is just them viewing the right future at the right time and moving out of the way of the blade that would kill them.
Edited by Judgex83, Dec 8 2011, 01:29 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| Kormak | Dec 8 2011, 01:34 AM Post #45 |
|
High Executioner of Khorne
|
You said the Khorne player was fine with MoN sucking which is a false statement, I am a chaos player who has themed lists because he finds the mix lists rather uninspiring. So a giant can have a mark but beastmen can't? makes sense.... 5+ parry save gets negated by a flank charge and by another item can be forced into being rerolled, yes regen can be negated by some things? whats your point? regen is fitting considering that is exactly what plague bearers have and guess what, not every single unit in the game has flaming attaks! -1 to hit has no effect against warmachines which is what everyone spams and doesn't any magic lore in the game. Lots of different fluff for Tzeentch, you also have how he rewards his champions with lots of mutations so I guess rolling on the EotG table would be just as fluffy, fluff has nothing to do with. You have the old fluff how all his heroes are powerful magic users but I guess that isn't the right fluff either because it doesn't provide a abusable ability. Edited by Kormak, Dec 8 2011, 01:36 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Chaos · Next Topic » |








10:45 PM Jul 11