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New Armybook Wishlisting!; Let's wishlist here
Topic Started: Nov 24 2011, 03:45 PM (1,012 Views)
Deroga
The Chosen
Kormak
Dec 9 2011, 09:39 AM
Well just a few things really, let me go through them abit at a time.


MoK

Frenzy is certainly the standard thing but I think the DoC book showed us that we don't have to be stuck in the same flawed design till the end of time, I actually like the idea of KB, just seems to fit the idea that Khorne warriors are excellent killers. MR is fine but truth be told its pretty awful in 8th ed, its only really useful against a couple of lore, at most it should be MR1, I don't think it should be higher than bloodletters.

Channelling seems like a odd idea considering Tzeentch can do it as well, I think when doing marks the deisgners should look at the synergy between the marks fist and how they blend. Certainly we want fluffy mono god armies but I think the book needs to designed with both sets of players in mind.

MoT

I don't really see the need for MoT to buff wardsave when MoN is performing exactly the same thing, ok its regen but clearly its the better option as Chaos warriors can have halberds and still be able to use Regen. +1 cast certainly makes sense but really MoT just isn't that well balanced for 8th, it was ok in 7th when we didn't have all these proper wardsaves and I think it kinda recreates the DoC nurgle wall of fine with no real disadvantages.

Not sure why you think they should be able to channel, its not really needed, I think the warshrines provide interesting options to buff marks so that the Marks themselves don't become overpowered.

MoS

ASF on Chaos warriors is a terrible idea while they remain I5, you talking about basically making swords masters of hoeth core and then slipping them some crack. No one is going to take Great weapons (even is WS5 A2 S6 I5 would be amazing), why would they when the chaos warriors get to reroll to hit, rerolls to hit is actually better than frenzy, you have just made slaanesh the premier combat mark (which should be Khorne role).

MoN

Thats just far to much, T5 troops with a regen save and chaos armour! jesus! could you imagine if they rolled +1T on the eye of the gods table through a warshrine! T6!!!!! troops!!!!! Even better, T7 chaos lords!!!

Points per model doesn't work, we all say how we think it would balance out chaos warriors but truth be told they are not unbalanced, what needs to be done is marks removed from marauders. The problem with marks is Marauders with great weapons, not chaos warriors. I personally think the discount makes up for the lack of shooting.

Not sure on the chosen knight idea, I actually though about this unit a while ago in another thread, problem is they will have to be rare and then basically means no one is going to use the monsters, just to much competition. I like the idea in the warhammer book that has you upgrade chaos knights based on a character, he makes nurgle knights ride rot beasts (interesting idea). I think adapting this idea mounting characters on daenomic steeds opens up no unit options, I would personally have all the mounts as some kind of steed rather than discs and palaquins.
Ideas in for each given mark are really just brainstorming. Overall i could really care less if these specific ideas are implimented or entirely different ideas come through, i am ultimatly wanting something to encourage as successful mono themed lists as multi-god themed lists.

MoK
- I completely agree that frenzy isnt the only option for this mark, hatred and KB would both be very fitting for the blood god.
- MR is really just a bonus, simply to add 'some' protection to an army that would have no additional magic protection. Perhaps an army wide +2 to dispel attempts like dwarves in addition or instead?
- MoK would get dispel channeling, MoT would get offensive spell channling only (no dispel channels.)

ill update post with clarifications on the channeling and add the possibilities of KB and Hatred.

MoT
- Well, MoN provides the exact same/better than IF the entire army is Nurgle. This would not apply if other marks are included in the list, which would make MoT have a benifit that nurgle does not in this situation.
- Again, im not particularily attatched to the bonus of any particular mark.
- The idea behind MoT units channeling is to provide a strong magic phase for the most magically powerful army. As long as Tzeentch can maintain this role, whatever benifit is fine.
- I do not like the current Eye of the Gods table. We can just disagree on this one :P

MoS
- I agree with your comment about asf being better that frenzy in combat (though it is still rather close when specifically compairing combat only statisitcs). It is worth mentioning that the ASF only applies when in a Mono Slaanesh list, where they will be missing the strenth of combining marks. In a Multi-God list ASF will not exist, making Khorne the premeir combat mark. In my original post i included Hatred with the Mono Khorne army via edit before seeing your response, which would make Khorne superior in combat. Hatred could be replaced with KB.
- Yes, they will be Sword Masters of Hoeth that are core, and for potentially 18+ points a model, they would be fine as such. I do beleive we will see a reduction in points for High Elves across the board as well. So 13ish ppm vs 18 ppm would be fine for +1 armor and +1 toughness in combat (if weilding halberd), while having -1 ws.
- again, not attatched to asf...maybe +1ws/I/Ld instead?

MoN
- to 6 would not be possible, as the eye of the gods table would be removed (preference), in favor of set favors for mono themed lists or exalteds/lords. T5 and 5+ regen would only be possble for mono themed, and for pontentially 18+ points per model.

I dont think marks should be removed from Marauders, just balanced in points for them, and this is where i think points per model would work fine. Take a unit Warriors from the above for a mono nurgle army....

Warrior base (15)
Halberd (1)
Mark of Nurgle (5, which could be as much as 10-20 points per model for chosen, or 2-3 for marauders, etc)

- so a unit of 18 would be 408 with full command. Great as an anvil, but VERY vulnerable to nuke spells like dwellers, dreaded 13th, infernal gateway, etc. as well as artillary, guns, and the 10 point banner of eternal flame. Not to mention being tarpitted by slaves, marauders, halbadeirs, or any of the many units that are at least 1/4 the points. Or the amazing unkillable/stubborn combat lords of tarpitting goodness, redirecting the whole game with eagles/warhounds/fast cav/etc.


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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
OK so I have bene thinking about several things, after posting in a wishlist for WoC, heres what I thought:

Well this is what I would do :p

MoK

Models/units with the Mark of Khorne gain the Killing blow special rule, is immune to psychology and has the MR(1) special rule(or a WS boost instead of MR)

General: if you army is lead by a character with the MoK and includes no wizards you may add +2 to all your dispel attempts.

Warshrines: In additional to the normal mark of Khorne rules the giver of glory rule is replaced with "Any spell that targets a unit within 6" miscasts on a roll double

Giants: No Marks

Magic Items

Banner of Rage: Models with the MoK gain a 5+ wardsave against wounds caused by magic and the hatred special rule.
Axe of Khorne: Great weapon. Models with MoK gain gain the Heroic killing blow special rule
Spelleater shield: Shield. Any spell that targets the unit will miscast on a roll of a double, any spell that suffers a miscast is lost for the remainder of the battle on a roll of a 6+

Gifts of Khorne

Skulltaker: The hero now causes a killing blow on a 5+ instead of the normal 6+, this has no effect on heroic killing blow
Fury of the Blood God: Once per battle the Khorne hero may automatically dispel a spell as if using a dispel magic scroll.
Furious Charge: The model gains the devastating charge rule
Chosen of Khorne: If the model kills a enemy character or unit champion in a challenge he may immediately issue another. If the model with this reward flees from combat and fails to rally in his following turn his immediately replaced with a chaos Bloodbeast of Khorne
Collar of Khorne: The models gains MR3


MoN

Models with the Mark of Nurgle gain the Regeneration (5+) special rule and cause fear, if the model causes fear it now causes terror

Warshrines: In addition to the normal rules for the mark of nurgle the giver of glory rule is replaced with "models within 6" gain the poison 6 special rule, if they already have the poison special rule then the unit/model causes poison hits on a roll of 5+ instead


Magic Items

Filth mace: The model gains the poison attack (6+) special rule in addition to this, any roll of a 6 to hit will also ignore armour saves.
Festering Shroud: Models with the Mark of Nurgle gain the poison attack (6+) special rule
Skin Hidden Plate: Chaos Armour. the Model increases its toughness value by 1


Gifts of nurgle

Stream of Corruption: Breathe weapon, models hit by stream of corruption must pass a strength test or suffer a single wound with a -2 save modifier
Nurgles rot: A model that suffers a wound but not slain must pass a T test or suffer a additional wound, no save allowed
Slime Trail: The model and any unit he joins is with is treated as having no flank or rear for the purpose of combat res
Plague Sword: Any weapon carried by the champion is treated as magical and inflicts D3 wounds
Noxious Vapors: All models in base to base contact with the character gain the always strike last special rule.


MoS

Any model that bears the Mark of Slaanesh is immune to fear, terror and panic, in addition to this and model in B2B with a model bearing the Mark of Slaanesh halves its WS (rounding down)

Warshrines: In edition to the normal rules for the Mark of Slaanesh the giver of glory rule is replaced with "all friendly models within 6" of the warshrine are now stubborn

Spawn: In addition to the normal rules for mark of Slaanesh, chaos spawn gain the always strike first special rule.


Magic Items

Rapier of Ecstasy:The model gains the Always Strike First special rule, in addition to this, any model that take a wound but are not slain must pass a toughness test or be killed outright, models killed in this way grant a roll on the eye of the gods table.
Rapturous Standard: Same as Book
Pendant of Slaanesh: Same as book

Gifts of Slaanesh

Soporific Musk: same as book
Aroma of Ecstasy: Enemy units/models in base to base contact with the character decrease their initiative value by 2
Allure of Slannesh: Enemy models wishing to attack the character must first pass a leadership test on their unmodified leadership, if they fail the attacks are wasted
Sirens flute: Enemy units must pass a leadership test in order to make a stand and shoot reaction, if they fail then they may still flee as normal
Unnatural Swiftness: The model gains the Always strike first special rule.


Mark of Tzeentch

Characters and warshrines with the Mark of Tzeentch Gain a bound level 4 power, if successfully cast the model may reroll failed armour saves for the remainder of the turn. Chaos sorcerers with the Mark of Tzeentch Add +1 to their casting dice rolls

Units with the Mark of Tzeentch gain the following bound spells:

1-9: bound level 4, 12" range 2D6 S2 AP hits
10-18: Bound level 6, 18" range, 2D6 S3 AP hits
19+ : Bound level 8 range 24", 3D6 S3 AP hits

Warshrines: In addition to the normal rules for the Mark of Tzeentch The giver of glory rule is replaced with "All Friendly wizards add +1 to their attempts to channel and all friendly bound magic adds +1 to the casting roll.


Gifts of Tzeentch

Wind Changer: You may reroll the Winds of Magic dice, but the second result stands. 60pts
Gift of Chaos: Once per game, you can nominate an enemy character model in base contact with the bearer of this Gift. This character has to take D6 Toughness tests. For each failed test, the enemy model loses a wound with no saves of any kind allowed, for each wound caused you generated a extra powerdice in your next magic phase. 50pts
Master of sorcerer: The sorcerer may choose any lore from the warhammer rulebook, the sorcerer has gains the loremaster special rule. 35pts
Iridescent Aura: The bearer is clad in a dazzling aura of iridecent light. Attacks against the bearer are at -1 to hit. 25pts
Essence of Flame: The bearers innermost self is kindled by an everchanging flame. The bearer has magical and flaming attacks. 15pts


Generic Gifts

Diabolic Splendour: As Book
Conjoined Homunculus: Once per turn the sorcerer may choose to add a extra D6 to his casting roll, this extra can cause a Irresistable force. At the start of his following turn the character must test for stupidity.
Mantle of Chaos: As book
Daemonic Strength: The characters strength is increased by 1
Extra Arm: The character has an extra arm, this means he may wield a additional weapon for a extra +1 attack (unless wielding a magical weapon) or use a shield and a two handed weapon.
Uncontrollable Fury: The model is subject the Frenzy special rule.
Enscrolled Weapons: Any mundane weapon carried by the model is treated as a magical weapon with a additional +1 strength (maybe)


Chaos Warriors: 13pts each (I have put 13 for now however I do wonder if 14 would be better)

M:4 WS:5 BS:3 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:4 A:2 Ld 8

Unit Size: 10+
Equipment: Hand weapon, Chaos armour
Special Rules: Champions of the Dark Gods, Mark of Chaos Undivided, Eye of the Gods
Options:

Great Weapons + 2pts
Additional Hand weapons +1pts
Halberds +2pts
Shields +1pts
Standard + 15pts
Musician + 10pts

Mark of Khorne + 45pts
Mark of Nurgle + 40pts
Mark of Slaanesh + 35pts
Mark of Tzeentch + 50pts

May take a magical Standard up to 50pts

Chosen Warriors: 18pts each

M:4 WS:6 BS:3 S:4 T:4 W:1 I:5 A:2 Ld 8

Unit Size: 10+
Equipment: Hand weapon, Chaos armour
Special Rules: Champions of the Dark Gods, Mark of Chaos Undivided, Eye of the Gods, Enscrolled Weapons
Options:

Great Weapons + 3pts
Additional Hand weapons +2pts
Halberds +4pts
Shields +1pts
Standard + 15pts
Musician + 10pts

Mark of Khorne + 45/50pts
Mark of Nurgle + 40pts
Mark of Slaanesh + 35pts
Mark of Tzeentch + 50pts

May take a magical Standard up to 75pts



Enscrolled Weapons: A model with this special rule treats all its attacks as magical.

Mark of Chaos Undivided: This replaces the will of chaos rule, models may reroll failed panic tests.

Exalted Champion of Chaos: 120pts

M:4 WS:7 BS:3 S:5 T:5 W:2 I:6 A:4 Ld 8

Equipment: Hand weapon, Chaos armour
Special Rules: Champions of the Dark Gods, Mark of Chaos Undivided, Eye of the Gods, Enscrolled Weapons
Options:

Great Weapons + 4pts
Additional Hand weapons +4pts
Halberds +6pts
Shields +2pts

Mark of Khorne + 30pts
Mark of Nurgle + 40pts
Mark of Slaanesh + 30pts
Mark of Tzeentch + 30pts

Barded Steed + 16pts
Daenomic Mount +40pts
Juggernaugt of Khone + 50pts
Rotbeast of Nurgle + 50pts
Disc of Tzeentch + 35pts
Steed of Slaanesh + 40pts
Chariot + 100pts

Magic items: May take up to 50pts of Magic Items
Chaos Gifts: May take up to 25pts of Chaos Gifts



Chaos Lord: 190pts

M:4 WS:8 BS:3 S:5 T:5 W:3 I:7 A:5 Ld 9

Equipment: Hand weapon, Chaos armour
Special Rules: Champions of the Dark Gods, Mark of Chaos Undivided, Eye of the Gods, Enscrolled Weapons
Options:

Great Weapons + 6pts
Additional Hand weapons +6pts
Halberds +8pts
Shields +4pts

Mark of Khorne + 30pts
Mark of Nurgle + 40pts
Mark of Slaanesh + 30pts
Mark of Tzeentch + 30pts

Barded Steed + 24pts
Daenomic Mount +40pts
Juggernaugt of Khone + 50pts
Rotbeast of Nurgle + 50pts
Disc of Tzeentch + 35pts
Steed of Slaanesh + 40pts
Chariot + 100pts
Chaos Dragon + 320pts

Magic items: May take up to 100pts of Magic Items
Chaos Gifts: May take up to 50pts of Chaos Gifts


Daemon Prince: 250pts

M:8 WS:8 BS:3 S:5 T:5 W:4I:7 A:5 Ld 8

Equipment: Hand weapon, Chaos armour
Special Rules: Champions of the Dark Gods, Mark of Chaos Undivided, Eye of the Gods, Daemonic, Terror
Options:

Fly + 20pts

Mark of Khorne + 30pts
Mark of Nurgle + 40pts
Mark of Slaanesh + 30pts
Mark of Tzeentch + 30pts

Unless given the Mark of Khorne then the daemon prince may be upgraded to a sorcerer at 35pts per magic level up to a maximum of lvl4

Magic items: May take up to 100pts of Magic Items
Chaos Gifts: May take up to 50pts of Chaos Gifts

Dragon Ogres: 65pts

M:7 WS:4 BS:2 S:5 T:4 W:4 I:2 A:3 Ld 8

Unit Size: 3+
Equipment: Hand weapon, Chaos armour
Special Rules: Scaly skin (6+), The will of chaos, Fear, Storm Rage, immune to psychology
Options: Great Weapons + 10pts, additional Hand weapons +6pts

Stormrage

Any lightning based attack targeted at a unit within 12" of the dragon ogres is directed at the dragon ogres instead on a roll of a 6+, work out the attack as normal, every wound causes actually restores a wound to the unit previous lost during the battle.


Dragon OrgeShaggoth: 240pts

M:7 WS:6 BS:2 S:6 T:5 W:6 I:4 A:5 Ld 9

Unit Size: 1
Equipment: Hand weapon, Chaos armour
Special Rules: Scaly skin (5+), The will of chaos, Terror, Storm Rage, Immune to psychology, eye of the Gods, Ancient Promise
Options: Great Weapons + 12pts, additional Hand weapons +8pts

Stormrage

Any lightning based attack targeted at a unit within 12" of the Shaggoth is directed at the dragon ogres instead on a roll of a 5+, work out the attack as normal, every wound causes actually restores a wound to the unit previous lost during the battle.

Ancient Promise

Because of the pact the shaggoths made with the chaos gods they are all bust immortal, as a result they are immune to heroic killing blow and can never take more than a single wound from any attack.

Daemonic: Models are treated as having magical attacks, stubborn and have a 5+ wardsave, if the model already have a wadsave it is instead increased by one to a maximum of a 4+ (was thinking 3+ but might be abit to much.





Personally I don't think marauders should have marks, they are not champions of the dark gods while Chaos warriors are, while they may worship them they haven't proven themselves yet. removing marks from marauders solves more problems than changing the points to per model, all your really doing is drastically decreasing the size of the army which isn't something chaos warriors now. 400pts for 18 chaos warriors is just to many points.
Edited by Kormak, Dec 9 2011, 11:20 AM.
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Deroga
The Chosen
I like your changes in general, very well thought out. As far as the 400 point unit of 18 nurgle warriors being to much, this is curently being used effectivly all the time...

Chosen of Tzeentch x 18
halberds or shields
Full Command
favor of the gods
wailing banner

this unit is 467 points and its gift will be random. most of the time people include at least 1 warshrine, making this a 577 point setup.
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
while that is true its also a special unit rather core
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Player not found
The Chosen
I've always thought that knights, in a way, were already chosen... Chosen who rolled horses and enscrolled weapons on the EotG table (even though the option is not there)...

We don't need to add a Chosen-squared unit, the chosen chosen are heroes and lords, not troops.
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
No but I do think we need need a unit of MC so we can actually use our characters on daemonic mounts!
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itsuperslug
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The Chosen
been thinking about whole to freshen up the different marks. Wondering about scaling them for different levels of unit.

e.g
MoK
marauders/ beasts = frenzy
warriors/ knights = re-roll charge range, frenzy
chosen/ characters = MR1, re-roll charge, frenzy

MoS
marauders/ beasts = immune to psychology
warriors/ knights = +1 I, ItP
chosen/ characters = ignores terain, +1I, ItP

etc...
Edited by itsuperslug, Dec 9 2011, 11:58 PM.
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