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| Melee Lord; How to field him, what's his role? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 30 2011, 01:27 AM (1,059 Views) | |
| conjoy | Nov 30 2011, 01:27 AM Post #1 |
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Exalted Guardian
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So there seems to be a bit of a push towards running a melee Lord rather than a Sorc one. The biggest problem I have is, conversely that the Lord has to be the General. Or to expatiate: As many people so, I often set out my Warhounds and Marauder Cav so that they will flee and charges. However, one of the crucial things I do in arranging those flees, is that they are fleeing towards my general and BSB Ldr bubble. And while this is not so much of an issue for Marauder Cav who can get ldr 8 with a Musician, for the hounds, the Ldr bubble is crucial if I want them to have more than one go at redirecting (and not give their points away). So the problem I am left with, is how do I play my Lord? He’s a lot of points, and for sheer killyness, hard to beat (with Word of Agony, probably unbeatable). So he needs to be in combat, and he needs to be mobile enough to be getting to the combats I want him in. But for the sake of the army, I also need him front and centre to provide my Ldr bubble. Options: Play him as Infantry meaning he should be well positioned for chaff units to flee towards him. But he losses the mobility of picking and choosing his fights and potentially can be avoided by an opponent. One solution to this would be to put him in a small unit of Chosen, maybe with the BSB. Yes its a bit of a DeathStar, but its also going to be too tempting for your opponent to avoid. Say 2 characters and 10 Chosen. Next option is to play him mounted in Knights. This is probably the most obvious option. The best solution to losing the Ldr bubble (cavalry invariably end up on flanks or out of the way trying to take advantage of chinks in the opponents line) is to take less dogs and an extra unit of Marauder Cav, that are less reliant on the Ldr bubble. Unkillable Lord option doesn’t really appeal to me. Any other suggested ways to make use of this beast? Final question is Stream of Corruption –v- Word of Agony? Currently Word of Agony wins in my head as HElf characters are (almost) immune to breath weapons. But I do feel the extra D6 hits would be nice on a lot of occasions. |
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| Jack of Blades | Dec 1 2011, 06:53 AM Post #2 |
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Slave
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How are helf characters almost immune to breath weapons? do you mean that their saves are so good in general that it won't hurt them? because breath weapons are not flaming by default. |
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| Hinge | Dec 1 2011, 02:47 PM Post #3 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Conjoy- I love the question. I am one of those experimenting with the combat lord in favor of the Sorc Lord. This is partially in reaction to the “conventional” wisdom that you need a Lvl 4 to be competitive. I have proved this is incorrect with Lizard men and also feel that WoC can do the same. With some momentum building on COTEC in regards to a melee lord, this is a great time for your question. I am not going to disagree with any of your post, but would add a couple comments. Inspiring Presence. The Lord provides a boost in leadership, which is a plus. As you observe however, an effective build has him in spots that the majority of the army will not be able to take advantage of this ld9. My counter is that unlike disc Exalted (or even Sorc) he is not effective in a purely chaff clearer or warmachine hunter but better employed where you want your main effort to be and will likely be close enough to provide his LD bubble where it is most needed. In contrast, many builds feature a disc sorc lord, who will be angling away from the army and unable to lend his higher leadership to our fleeing crappy troops. It has not seemed to be an issue with these builds. I know you have read my ramblings and would counter that I do not play the Disc Sorc. Sending out the Lord v. keeping him in close will be a risk I will have to assess every game based on situation. I look forward to learning this skill. The small Chosen Star is a tried and true strategy in my mind. However, with a melee lord on foot in the unit, I suspect it becomes too scary to engage. I have found that it is the additional bait of the L4 Sorc that tends to send people at it (to their demise!). This is not the approach I would take. Putting the Lord in a large unit of knights can be effective. The hitch here is you will need strong support to pave the way, as you really want that unit in combat. I also think it does not need to be on the flank, since I think they can engage most units in the game and generate enough combat rez to win combats consistently. You will either grind through the opposition or bring other units to bear to break steadfast. A unit like this would be my schwerpunkt and the rest of the army would be built around/devoted to supporting it in one way or another. I have decided to kit a lord out to help with the meta game. This is a subject I should throw in my ramblings. In essence, it is an attempt to gain dominance outside of the game mechanics. I see two distinctive potential builds. The first is the “unkillable” stubborn lord. Using his mobility, you tie up a critical enemy unit or shut down a flank. Several armies can produce this build with DE doing it the best. It is amazingly effective. Unfortunately it has become common and many top players have their counters for it. What I am going to try is the monster hunter. This is a Lord with 1+/3++, Glaive, potion of St, Disc. This bad ass will hunt down enemy monsters. There is an element of monster hammer going on, and if you can kick the poo out of that monster quickly and rapidly, you can demoralize your opponent. I have done it with a tzeetch sorc on many occasions but I am dependent on a good roll of winds and punching a spell through. Seems the combat lord would be more dependable. Also, I find opponents are less butt hurt when things die in combat v. shooting or magic. I do believe the Sorc Lord is the more optimal build, but have a desire to do things differently. Hinge |
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| Darth Urbrambus | Dec 1 2011, 05:56 PM Post #4 |
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The Chosen
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It's good to see a discussion about regular chaos lord ^^ I feel he is neglected too often although it is mostly out of necessity since everyone plays with lvl 4 wizards :/ My friends and I regularly play 2 vs 2 games, where I take a Chaos Lord and not a wizard. Two successful combo's I've used are: 1) MoT, barded steed, axe of khorne, helm of many eyes, endurance, word of agony 2) MoT, barded steed, sword of swift slaying, preservation, potion of strength, word of agony You'll see that in both options he's on horseback, so yes, I always put him with knights. On foot he's too slow and he can be avoided by your opponent. He has neither problem when on a steed. And you don't have to put him on a flank, this unit can be played somewhere in between centre and flank (besides, a BSB with warriors + standard of discipline could solve that inspiring presence issue). The first option gives ASF and KB, 6 attacks at S6. Pretty hard and stupidity isn't much of a problem on a Lord. The second option gives ASF, possible S8 attacks (also 6 of them) and a better WaS. I find that the ASF has played a major role so far. Almost all attacks hit and I wound on 3's or even 2's. That frees up my knights to focus there attacks elsewhere. So far, the guy (+ knights) has killed several Stegs, Lords, Heroes, entire cav units, big blocks of infantry and has only died once. And he would've killed the unkillable DE Lord (he inflicted 8 wounds!!) if my opponent hadn't saved 7 of them :/ Cheers |
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| guardian angel | Dec 1 2011, 07:46 PM Post #5 |
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Exalted Guardian
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I take it the knight unit has the banner of rage to get him to 6 attacks? Have you not had problems with controlling this unit due to frenzy; ie baited out of position, forced to overrun etc? |
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| Darth Urbrambus | Dec 1 2011, 08:16 PM Post #6 |
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The Chosen
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Hi Guardian Yes, the unit of knights has the Banner of Rage. And actually no, I have very few problems in controlling them. Ld 9 is not that bad really. The unit of knights is always accompanied by a hound unit and I will take care when moving the unit, so it usually gets where I want it. As for overrun, I rarely wipe out an enemy in the first turn of CC, but it does happen in the next and then you can just reform as normal. But again, I do try to make sure my unit doesn't end up where I don't want it ^^ I do put that unit on the flanks though, giving me a good chance of a flank charge. |
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| conjoy | Dec 2 2011, 01:59 AM Post #7 |
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Exalted Guardian
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@jackofblades The FAQ for Dragon Armour means it now provides a 2+ ward against both Flaming and Breath Weapons. In fairness I am slightly skewed in my thinking because my local gaming group includes Seredain off the Ulluthun forums and his Prince is a BEAST. He has a one-use item that means he rereolls hits and wounds against you and then you reroll AS and Wards, but he takes a wound afterwards. Combine this with his high I and the +3S weapon and you have a mean character killer. Even our unkillable Lord takes 2 wounds from this guys on average in the first round. Word of Agony has a chance to kill him outright and at the least make him pay a high price for popping that item. Hinge, I rarely have an issue taking down Large Monsters with Warriors and find it interesting that you are focusing in this way. Especially given the two nastiest griblies in the two toughest opponents have Regen which the Lord can’t mitigate (depending on how you rate LM/Skaven/DElfs). I gather a portion of what you are aiming to do is about the psychological effects of taking-out an opponent’s big-nasty. Regarding the Ldr issue, I get around the problem of my Disc mage being away from combats by not making him my General. Your highest Ldr character has to be your general (so the melee Lord must be). But a Lvl 4 has the same Ldr as a Hero or Lvl 1, meaning you can take one of those in a bunker or infantry block and conveniently place him wherever you need Ldr 8(or 9 with banner). My competitive list usually features a Hero with Book of Secrets and Scroll or a Lvl 1 of Fire as General. Personally, what I see that the melee Lord brings is guaranteed kills. Assuming Tz, and an ASF build, he should be all but guaranteed 4 kills per round. With this certainty comes confidence and allows you to build a platform and a plan for the way combats will develop. To some extent he is also a counter to opponents who can take cheap but powerful characters. The more I think about it, the more this guy needs to be about character killing. |
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| Hinge | Dec 3 2011, 03:24 AM Post #8 |
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Exalted Guardian
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So I got to take the Chaos Lord out for a spin last night against the new Chaos dwarfs. Oh goody, a chance to see how two new things work. After looking at my opponents list and a quick over view, I thought holy crap, the lord is perfect for this matchup. My opponent was taking two War Engine trains and the big bad demon creature (Khadiri Destroyer?). My Lord was kited out with MoT, Disc, Glaive, Pot of Strength, Dragon Helm, 1+/3++. He took down the Big Demon and a train in quick order. The bad news was my dice were hot, my opponents were not and I did not get enough of a game in to get a good read on the new Chaos Dwarfs. |
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| TheOneHawk | Dec 3 2011, 02:09 PM Post #9 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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I'm honestly having more success with a combat lord than a sorc. I tend to go big or go home, personally, and all out offense. Sure, he draws some fire, but if he gets to combat, and he usually does, your opponent can kiss half their army goodbye. |
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| Hinge | Dec 3 2011, 02:50 PM Post #10 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Yep. He took a round of fire from both trains. Ouch, they are nasty! He shrugged it off. Afterwards, I re-read the demon rules. It should have taken a toughness test at teh beginning of every turn, not just the Choas Dwarfs. This may have prevented me from taking those shots. He had one wound and had been reduced to To 2. a failed test kills him at the beginning of my turn and gives me the option to charge a train to avoid being shot at. As it happened, I killed him in my combat phase and stood there and took the shots, shrugging them off thanks to Tzeetch. I even remebered to roll on the EoTG for both kills! Hinge |
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| DarkSchneider | Dec 3 2011, 11:23 PM Post #11 |
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Clanlord
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I used to run the same build, bit i don't know how many times it's going to be useful in tournament play....anyway, it'still good to go get monsters, instead of letting them get to you, but there are many threats that build cannot face, as a Bloodthrister with KB, or a GUO with vapours and blade......you miss one 3+ save and you're history... |
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| Hinge | Dec 4 2011, 01:31 AM Post #12 |
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Exalted Guardian
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The thirster is always a problem for my WoC. I have yet to come up with a consistant way of dealing with him. The GUO has about a 1 in 5 chance of ganking the Lord before he can strike. If the GUO soes not, he will be effectively cripeled and easy meat for the rest of the army. |
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| DarkSchneider | Dec 4 2011, 06:36 AM Post #13 |
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Clanlord
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main point is the GUO on first turn has S8, so he's wounding on 2 and negating your armour...that means you have to save 2 wounds on a 3+....i wouldn't take the risk..... and what's the point in taking a monster killer if you can't kill the nastiest one (BT)? |
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| Hinge | Dec 4 2011, 08:08 AM Post #14 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Ah, forgot the Balesword stacks with the flail (stupid). That increases the odds to slightly less then one in three on that first turn (still have a 6+ armor save and there is only a 66% chance that a hit that gets through kills the lord outright). Depending on the situation, I might take those odds. Lets flip the question the other way, does a demon player want to loose his GUO two thirds of the time? I think the presence of the lord will alter the play of the demon player until he deals with him. I am actually more worried by the siren song then a GUO. What in the WoC arsenal can dependably take down the BT? Big unit of Chosen with DG up is all I can think of. Your opponent gets what he deserves if he sends a BT into that. Actually, I may very well send the lord in and take the chance with KB if the BT does not have Obsidian armor. Other wise, I am keeping the lord away and hoping to get lucky with a good winds to punch an IF Gateway through the 3+ ward or land a Hell Cannon shot on his noggin. There are certainly other matchups that the kit will not be optimal. Dwarves and Brets do not bring monsters. At the end of the day, he is still a very mobil, tough and hard hitting model. There will be other uses for him. |
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| DarkSchneider | Dec 4 2011, 09:10 AM Post #15 |
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Clanlord
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yes, I agree with you, but you have to admit that's not an optimal build, just a pretty good one.....and that bothers me, cause monster/character hunting should be the best role for a chaos lord.....maybe with the new book... |
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