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| Swordmaster Angst | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 9 2011, 05:24 PM (718 Views) | |
| Kiwichris | Dec 9 2011, 05:24 PM Post #1 |
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The Khornate Kiwi
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I think I posted a topic about tactics against High Elves before, but have been encountering them a lot recently. Everyone seems to have an army of them because of their presence in the starter set. Swordmasters in particular are really starting to get on my nerves. I don't have any shooting or magic in my army as it's themed mostly around Khorne. I charged a unit of 10 of them front on with 15 Khorne Warriors and in the rear with 4 Khorne Ogres with GW's. They caused 5 wounds on the Ogres and killed 5 Warriors in one turn and I only managed to kill 5 once I eventually could attack back. I lost the combat substantially and both units fled, the Ogres off the board! Yes, I know they are only Toughness 3 and have a lousy save, but re-rollable WS 6 attacks with S 5 weapons which ASF is really Overpowered if you ask me. And when you consider White Lions are almost exactly the same... (The overall result of the game was a draw, by the way!) |
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| Zenul | Dec 9 2011, 05:54 PM Post #2 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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What about throwing a bunch of GW marauders at them, yes, your unit will likely be chopped up pretty good, and might flee. But you will very likely kill a bunch in return, which might soften them up enough for another unit to take them down. Best advise I can give aside from magic/shooting. Good luck! |
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| Kormak | Dec 9 2011, 07:10 PM Post #3 |
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High Executioner of Khorne
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I think you have one of a few ways of dealing with SM, either lone monsters, shooting, lone characters if they are not ranked up or chosen with a wardsave and toughness. |
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| guardian angel | Dec 9 2011, 07:52 PM Post #4 |
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Exalted Guardian
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I feel your pain! My regular opponent and friend plays HE and he always fields swordmasters. The unfortunate truth is that they are more killy than most of our standard units, especially warriors as they can decimate the unit before the warriors can strike back. Best solutions I've found so far are: Hordes of marauders with GW. Yes, he'll kill tons of you, but he's only killing 5pt models, and with the amount of attacks back you can decimate his unit. You'll probably still lose, and lose frenzy, but as long as you hold you should be able to out grind him. This is why my HE mate ALWAYS trys to keep his SM well away from my marauder horde. Warriors with mark of nurgle; making them hit you on 4's instead of 3's helps a lot. Shadow magic: debuff them so they don't get re-rolls or lower their strength, then they're not half as bad! Tzeentch magic: blast them with flickering fire, gateway and treason of tzeentch. If you can weaken them in any way before you engage them it will help tremendously. Edited by guardian angel, Dec 9 2011, 08:18 PM.
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| theorox | Dec 9 2011, 08:21 PM Post #5 |
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Clanlord
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Well you can't really out-fight them without big losses, when you're limited to no magic. I'd crash some Chaos Knights into them, but I believe the Swordmasters will still get the re-roll since they have the same In? Anyway, the key factor is the AS, since you'll still get a 3+ save against the Swordmasters. Theo |
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| exodite | Dec 9 2011, 08:36 PM Post #6 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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Giant of slanesh! Spawns of Slanesh! mess them up with your own ASF |
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| conjoy | Dec 9 2011, 08:41 PM Post #7 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Treason of Tz is the best thing going round against Swordmasters. On average it kills 63% Aside from magic, Tz Chariots are the best option against Swordmasters. They do D6+1 hits that are killing on 2s before he strikes. In return the SMs are wounding on 4s and you have a 6+6++. If you can use the Clipping technique (see Hinge’s Rambling’s post for details) to minimise models in contact you can potentially even receive few enough attacks that the Riders and mounts also get to strike. If they do, you should win the combat. A double-charge from two chariots will effectively neuter the unit killing 8 before the SMs even get to strike. Other good options: Tz Marauders with Shield. 5+ ward goodness. Standard unit of 14 SMs kills 10-11 Marauders per turn and receives one casualty in return. But the Marauders can field a huge unit that’s Steadfast for many turns, chipping-away at the SMs. Tz Warriors also do well, losing 6 per turn but inflicting 5 in return as well. |
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| Kormak | Dec 9 2011, 11:33 PM Post #8 |
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High Executioner of Khorne
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Gotta love how people read the part about themed around Khorne, I can see how TZ marauders and warriors fit that ;) |
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| Deroga | Dec 10 2011, 02:00 AM Post #9 |
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The Chosen
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without magic swordmasters can be tough. the suggested hordes of marauders is a good choice for an all khorne list, as well as knights. This matchup is simular to the dwarf vs woc matchup in that you will want to match your cheap units against his elite units and your elite units against his cheap units to take advantage of the huge points dichonomy that marauders provide when matched against more and more elite units. each swordmaster will kill.... 7.5 points vs marauders 16 points worth of warriors each warrior will kill.... 18.7 points worth of swordmasters each marauder will kill.... 12.5 points worth of swordmasters as you can see, the warriors of khorne vs swordmasters is a very even fight, so close that the ASF that sword masters have will generally make them win the combat in the long run, and without magic or shooting to mop up the remaining swordmasters...and given their superior movement...you will likely not get the points out of them. marauders, on the other hand, are getting nearly double the points per model against swordmasters, but will have almost triple the body count as a warrior unit. The more difficult part will be deploying and manuevering to setup these matchups, which is where support units and warhounds can come in handy to help make him setup his blocks first, allowing you to counter deploy. unfortunatly, i feel like this is a matchup (high elves vs woc) that doesnt go well for an all khorne force. magic and hell cannons really, really make up the weak spots for warriors in matchups like this, as well as different marks. if the high elf player takes 3-4 eagles and uses them well against all your frenzied troops, im just not sure if a victory is possible without luck :( |
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| theorox | Dec 10 2011, 02:32 AM Post #10 |
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Clanlord
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Even if he wasn't using Mono-Khorne that wouldn't work, since the Swordmasters have higher I and will mince the giant/Spawn before they strike. Theo |
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| Kormak | Dec 10 2011, 02:59 AM Post #11 |
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High Executioner of Khorne
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what people forget to tell you is spearmen mince marauders, mono Khorne can still take shooting so the hellcannon is a good choice to try and soften them up and then you move in with the chaos knights or single monster. I usually use my knights with jugger hero as the attacks against the hero lose the rerolls while the unit is still getting a nice 1+ save. |
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| rothgar13 | Dec 10 2011, 03:41 AM Post #12 |
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Clanlord
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Marauders actually hold up reasonably well against Spearmen (that is to say, they lose a lot of guys, but still win the combat), plus they rock the Swordmasters' world through weight of numbers, so I'd still bring them. I think the key to dealing with High Elves here is to get the matchups you want - Marauders v. Swordmasters/White Lions, Warriors v. anything else. If you can get that, you should win. A Marauder's attack kills a Swordmaster about as efficiently as a Chaos Warrior's, and you're losing a lot less when your guy dies. And the Spearmen S3 attacks just plink off T4 + Chaos armor, plus at S5, a Halberd Warrior kills them just fine. Edited by rothgar13, Dec 10 2011, 03:44 AM.
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| Kormak | Dec 10 2011, 04:06 AM Post #13 |
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High Executioner of Khorne
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I think marauders die reasonable well against spearmen and shooting :p they don't hold up well, they do ok against lions and SM because the units are usually very small and don't have the models to soak up the damage. Intereing enough Tzeentch warriors are actually pretty good against SM and WL because of the 5+ wardsave, good armour, plenty of attacks and S4 |
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| cross | Dec 10 2011, 01:09 PM Post #14 |
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The Chosen
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42 great weapon marauders. 6 wide 7 deep. you will loose your mark after the first round, thats the thing with frenzy. but you will remain steadfast for a couple of turns. long enough to slam a chariot in their flank. they dont like st5 impact hits. its also good to have a bsb around. i dont know if your taking an unmarked caster or not depends on how khorny you want to go. but if you do take shadow and hit the unit with miasma. with no rerolls to hit it doesnt matter who goes first. lastly. i landed a hellcannon shot on a unit of 24 once. all dead but 2. :) happy day. |
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| rothgar13 | Dec 10 2011, 01:20 PM Post #15 |
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Clanlord
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I would actually run Horde. The goal for the Marauders here is to kill as many Swordmasters as possible. You cost roughly 40% of what they do (so you can bring 50 Khorne Marauders to duke it out with 20 Swordmasters), so it's extremely unlikely they'll out-rank you. Heck, you might even grind them down and win that fight through attrition.
Edited by rothgar13, Dec 10 2011, 01:21 PM.
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