Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to The Chamber of the Everchosen. We hope you enjoy your visit!


Here at COTEC we are all about the Warriors of Chaos in Warhammer Fantasy Battle.

Tactics to help you slaughter your opponent on the tabletop, through to galleries on how to build your next Warshrine. Its all covered... and growing!

We are a forum for gamers and hobbyist alike and again would like to welcome you to a fun, friendly, warm place and hope to see you again!


Join our legion! Takes less than a minute and gives you access to everything!


If you're already a member please log in to your account by entering the correct runes and words of power:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
High Elf Cheese
Topic Started: Dec 12 2011, 06:08 PM (564 Views)
asmithbothell
Slave
[ * ]
I know this topic has come up before, and I've read many of the posts about it here and on Warseer, but I still cannot overcome HE lameness. I have narrowed down a list of things that seem to be my undoing however;

1) Lore of Metal - in general. This lore is disgusting vs us in 8th
2) Teclis - nuff said
3) Banner of idk (but it makes a unit immune to magic) - wtf? really?

His shooting doesn't even do me in anymore, and when I get into combat I've learned what to do pretty well, but he mauls me so bad before I even get to him that I've nearly given up playing against him. Any advice?

Thanks
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Kormak
Member Avatar
High Executioner of Khorne
You could use a small unit of dragon ogres with additional hand weapons to charge teclis early on and kill him
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
grimni22
Member Avatar
The Chosen
If you use a marauder/troll list points 1 and 3 are negated (troll vomit counts as magical attack, but not magic weapon)

Ive never faced teclis
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cross
The Chosen
wulfric with 30 marauders eats teclis. as long as he turns up on time!!!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Fenris249
The Chosen
1)not against marauders, trolls, or ogres which all can put a woopin on some elves.
2)nuff said indeed
3) banner of the world dragon. Yes straight up magic invulnarability to BOTH yours and his. So he can't can't cast squat on his unit either. But I can only imagine that he's getting you with more than this. He must have swordmaster hordesand any number of dasterdly elven crap. I hate elves all elves. Chosen tzeentch with two warshrines will help especialy if you put the blasted standard 0n em. Then keep rolling till you get the three up ward.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
conjoy
Exalted Guardian
If hes taking Teclis, and metal its really time to take the gloves off.
Treason of Tz will do any unit with 2-handers. I am pretty sure that banner can only be taken on his BSB, so you should be able to see know where its going. Between Treason and a Helcannon or two you should be able to control the game and make him come to you. Bolt Throwers and archers are OK, but a couple of hits from a Helcannon in combination with Pandamonium, topped-up by Treason and Gateway are a lot more damaging.
If he’s taking Metal, feel free to go heavy on Marauders and light on Warriors. Blocks of Tz marauders with Shields will hold-up his killy units for turn after turn and blocks of Khorne Marauders with GW will make him pay a very heavy price for any casualties he wants to inflict, and metal will be largely useless against the low Armour value of Marauders.
Teclis can be difficult to counter, the cheesiest way to run him is in a huge unit with the magic immune banner. Theres an argument that says you should actually ignore magic yourself against Teclis, as he will be IFing most spells you could be better off sticking a melee Lord on a Disc and simply running it at Teclis’ unit ASAP and try and get him into combat.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Juice
Slave
[ * ]
I have played HE for a couple of years and have now started playing WoC as well, first game today infact. i've taken a Teclis list a couple of times, to give it a go. First game he died first turn from a Bret. field treb and another time at a character welcome tournie where i won most of my games but i made no friends by taking him.


IMO

Conjoy has great advice.


Teclis by all accounts is a delicate little flower: T2 with no armour or ward saves. go up to him and punch him on the arm and he'll go down. don't get all heads up about countering his magic, it's sooo cheesy: focus on what you can do. With your current list come up with non-magic solutions. How would you normally assassinate a mage without using magic?

HE players generally create a protective bubble around Teclis you'll have to break though. If Teclis does go down you will have a huge psychological advantage. He's personally worth loads and he's going to have some expensive friends around too. Think of it kind of like a VC army but the general will fall over in a strong wind.

a HE player will do everything in his power to save his little baby. if you threaten him the majority of Teclis' magic will be going on ways to save his own butt. this means that those spells aren't going into the rest of your army.

i agree with con joy: HE have no real good answer vs hell cannons. HE war-machine hunters are great eagles and Elyrian reavers, neither of these do well against a HC. A unit of Dragon Princes, if it could get there, may have a crack at it but that would be it. A spirit leach or Purple Sun would spoil a HC's day. Teclis would need to get close to cast these making him more vulnerable. If Teclis has those spells he wont have metal. Teclis still needs to choose his lore when the list is created.
HE fear templates like nothing else and one that can hit 21x 16 point models that wounds on 2 plus and might make you run away - OMG :blink: .

As a HE player: my first 2-3 turns would be all about what the heck am i going to do about those HC?

HE also hate chariots. The impact hits happen before their ASF, HE shooting doesn't do much to the Chaos chariot and they're harder to divert: this personally makes me feels bit out of control as a HE general. HE elite units are normally relatively small, ~15 or so models, so 2 chariots in the face causing 2d6 plus 2 st5 hits before ASF really hurts them.

Yes, treason on something like sword masters or white lions would be devastating if by some miracle you get it off. Teclis generates plus d3 DD and has plus 5 to his dispel rolls and a nasty dispell scroll.

i personnally like to create all comer lists however if i was to try and counter a Metal-Teclis list i'd take 2 HC and rain templates on his head. Then send a fast unit of juicy bait drawing fire followed closely by a sizeable block of lightly armoured marauders that has lots of attacks. Sizeable block because the HE will take a fair few out along the way; lightly armoured so his metal magic doesn't cook you; and lots of attacks because you don't have to hit hard you just have to hit. Go with some chariots as company. Heck you could pop some heros on chariots if you want more. I'm not yet familiar with WoC builds however generally any good non-magic mage assassin tactic should do the trick too; someone on a disc with a dragon helm (2 plus ward vs fire/metal attacks) maybe? You guys would have more idea than me.

Just remember Teclis is only T2 with no armour or ward saves. Tag him with almost anything, ie a nasty dog bite, and tears will start to well.


IMHO ppl who regularly play Teclis lists are making up for their small.....um :$ .....small....um :$ ...you know.....small :$ ......tactical strategies or love of the game. ;)

Hope this helps

j
Edited by Juice, Dec 19 2011, 08:59 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Toonces
Slave
[ * ]
Just wanted to chime in that I frequently see anti-HE threads (man, there are a lot of these) that recommend Treason of Tzeentch as something specially effective against HE (someone posted somewhere it's a goodway to wipe out 2/3rds of the unit).

Since Treason will result in a unit with ASF attacking itself (a unit with ASF) the re-rolls to-hit will *not* apply. Yes, it's fair to say that the +2S means that High Elf Swordmasters and White Lions will wound themselves 5 times out of 6, but they will still only hit themselves 1 out of 2 times.

In general, expect Treason of Tzeentch to inflict 41.6% casualties on High Elf Swordmasters or White Lions. Not that that's a shabby figure just... be aware of the rules.

Also, trying to hunt Teclis with a Fighty Lord won't cut it. Your Lord is obligated to challenge, the High Elf player is free to throw everything under the bus until only Teclis remains and then he's free to refuse every round. Unless you have Wulfric, you cannot kill Teclis in a challenge unless your opponent is an utter fool.

And if your Hellcannon ever misfires and rolls a 3, have your opponent bust out his army book and ask him if Teclis' misfire protection is phase-specific. Here's a hint: it says nothing about miscasts in the shooting phase...


Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
rothgar13
Member Avatar
Clanlord
Most of the people that come to complain about High Elves usually are groaning about the magic, which is funny because even Teclis isn't as dominant as a Slann (nor anywhere near as durable), so it could be a lot worse. Swordmasters are also common, but people forget that once the Swordmasters claim their victims, Halberd Warriors go through them like a hot knife through butter (even more easily than they kill us), and it's not like they're half the price of said Warriors, either.

All of it smacks of people who just need to quit whining and learn the matchup.
Edited by rothgar13, Jan 11 2012, 01:31 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
conjoy
Exalted Guardian
To an extent I agree with you Rothgar but imho HElfs (cheese or otherwise) are a nasty match-up for WoC.
ASF+GWeps mitigates a lot of their weaknesses. They have superior movement, equal magic and almost as many utility options.
A good player wielding a HElf MSU list is about as tough as it gets for WoC.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
rothgar13
Member Avatar
Clanlord
Oh, for sure, they're tough. The unique combination of having lightning-fast, hard-hitting elite infantry along with powerful magic is hard for us to deal with. But it's not "OMG I CAN'T BEAT THEM HE IS BROKEN". I'd call the matchup about even, maybe with a slight advantage to the High Elves. Maybe.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tekik
Dragon Ogre
I agree, its a hard fight and they can pump a lot of cheese into a list but its not an auto high elf win. It can get even harder for WoC if we aren't running an optimized cheese list as well but even then the right tactics and a bit of luck can have us go home with the win. For the lists I run they are easily the most challenging opponents I have faced (not I have not fought against lizard men yet with WoC only my Tomb Kings) but even so I win maybe half my games rounding up. Sword masters are scary but I have Infernal Gatewayed them strait to the realm of chaos before. As well as just beaten them in combat with a good flank charge. Fortunately my friend who plays High Elves has taken more of a liking to White Lions as I keep dropping hell cannon shots on his sword masters. I much rather face those in CC even with their str 6.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
EvilTwinSkippy
Warrior of the Chamber
conjoy
Dec 12 2011, 08:38 PM
Treason of Tz will do any unit with 2-handers. I am pretty sure that banner can only be taken on his BSB, so you should be able to see know where its going.
Without reading too much into the thread yet, I'd make sure he's using his items/magic/whatever the correct way. This may sound wierd and smacks a bit of cheating but it's easy to get over entheusiastic (sp) and start making mistakes that put stuff waaay over the top rather than just a hassle.

Case in point: one of my earliest opponents woudn't read the entire description of spells, leaving out points of fact that made his spells less painful to my army. I love the guy like a brother but when he did this I wanted to beat him with a sack of oranges.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tekik
Dragon Ogre
He is in fact running the banner correctly but it has the disadvantage of you are suddenly unable to bump your unit as its immune to all magic from BOTH sides.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
His Immortal Shadow
Warrior of the Chamber
yea their tough, teclis spell casting monster, but dont get me wrong high elves are very beatable, their chief weakness as a army as a whole subject to attrition warfare, if all else fails use a page from the knorne book of war, frontal assualt, hit him with everything at once all over the board, it will force him in the follow turns which spells to boost which unit, magic cant be everywhere at once, that should punch the hole in his army you need
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Tactics · Next Topic »
Add Reply