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| beating skaven | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 11 2012, 07:35 PM (308 Views) | |
| Khurdur | Jan 11 2012, 07:35 PM Post #1 |
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The Chosen
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Well one of my regular opponents takes skaven, we play at 2k. I play a themed Khorne list with jug lord w/4+ ward save and crimson armour of dargan Lv.2 w/ puppet BSB w/MR 3 and ironcurse icon 2x 15 khorne halberd/shield warriors 9one with flaming attacks) 40 marauders 25 maruders 5 knights MoK 5 warhounds or instead of the 25 marauders more warriors, and 8 knights with the blasted standard now he takes grey seer with power scroll and screaming bell plague priest w/ dipel scroll BSB engineer with doom rocket 2x 30-40 clanrats 2x 50 slaves 2x7 jezzails and either 2 hellpits for rare or 2 warp lightning cannons and one hellpit And they are NASTY. A good dreaded thirteenth takes out the flaming warrior unit. The doomrocket usually kills a good 20 marauders, and then close range withers and plagues kill the rest. The knights get shot down by the jezzails and/or WLC. And, even if I do get close, he usually can jam me with skaveslaves or hit me with the hellpits. Any tactics, or additions to my list to win? Edited by Khurdur, Jan 11 2012, 07:44 PM.
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| CyderPyrate | Jan 11 2012, 08:56 PM Post #2 |
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The Chosen
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Looks like all his damage potential is in the lightning cannon(s), abominations, doom rocket and 13th spell. Some marauder horsemen would help you to get rid of the artillery early on. A disc-sorc would be handy too, but you can't really get that into a Khorne-themed list. Flaming attacks on the knights instead of the warriors and get them stuck into the a-bombs asap should sort one of them out. Give the sorc lore of fire and you've got at least one more way to wound it. The lore has an instant panic test for one of the spells which would be mighty handy against skaven. |
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| ulo | Jan 11 2012, 11:12 PM Post #3 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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Since you run a khorne themed army which is a hard thing to do in the first place your in for no easy task since he apperently use quite many of the nasty skaven tricks! Firstly I would say that your Lord probably needs to be kitted out to take care of big nasty things like the Hell Pits! I also agree on putting the flaming attacks on the Knights instead and get them stuck with the Hell pits! Also I would advice in trying to make place for a Hellcannon they are awesome vs Skaven. If you can manage to panic one part of the army they will most likely run of the table! |
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| Khurdur | Jan 12 2012, 01:01 AM Post #4 |
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The Chosen
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they don't run of the table easily....strength in numbers plus a BSB re-rolls make them rather hard to move. A LD 7 general, and every unit will always have at least 3 ranks, and a re-roll means they aren't going anywhere in a hurry for any reason....my knights never survive the jezzails attention...S6 Ap is nasty. I do give the sorc lore of fire, and he generally does cause some damage, but six wounds to kill a abom is quitwe a bit, needs to big succesful castings of fireball, and seeing as I'm slightly outmagicked, they generally have to be irresistable ! Edited by Khurdur, Jan 12 2012, 01:15 AM.
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| Tekik | Jan 12 2012, 01:11 AM Post #5 |
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Dragon Ogre
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I know I seem to recommend this all the time but have you looked at Dragon Ogres? I don't know if they go against the Khorn theme as they aren't devoted to any one god but if you give them Great Weapons they can hurt a hellpit with their Str 7 attacks and they are immune to warplightning cannons as its considered lightning and would only serve to give them frenzy |
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| David L | Jan 12 2012, 01:31 AM Post #6 |
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The Chosen
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Guys, flaming banner on the knights only works if they buy lances. Knights normally have magic weapons, and flaming attacks don't work with magic weapons. Look it up. I think the obvious problem is you have a 300+ point lord that isn't helping much. He can kill 4 or 5 rats a turn, but that does not matter. You need a lord that helps against the shooting and the monsters. Or drop the lord entirely in favor of more troops, such as horsemen. |
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| rothgar13 | Jan 12 2012, 05:15 AM Post #7 |
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Clanlord
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David is correct regarding Knights and the Flaming Banner. It's a darn shame, but those are the rules. A themed Khorne list is just going to struggle mightily against Skaven regardless, but I think you'd be better off bringing more bodies in those Warriors. As it stands, one D13 and those points are down the drain, because even if they don't all die, they can't fight. Since you've effectively denied yourself the chance of dispelling it unless you get incredibly lucky, you might as well prepare for the consequences. |
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| jerm20201 | Jan 12 2012, 05:41 AM Post #8 |
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Soul Stealer
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I hate skaven with a passion...played my buddy on Sunday and he had a try hard list he wanted to give a go. I agreed but lubed up in preparation for a spanking, which is what happened. His army was roughly the following: First three are all in clan rat unit of 40 Fighty Lord on litter bsb engineer lvl4 grey seer (40 clan rat unit) lvl1 plague priest (on furnace) Core: 3x 40 or 50 slaves 2x 40 clan rats 4x rat darts Special/Rare: Plague furnace with 30-40 plague priests HPA Warp Lightening Cannon Mine was not the best list, but it was one I wanted to play around with: Lord on disc, stubborn 1+/3++ Exalted BSB (with 19 sword and board TzWarriors) Lvl2 on disc with 3rd Eye of Tz Core: 40x Khorne GW Marauders (horde) 19x Sword and board TzWarriors 20x XHW Khorne Warriors Special/Rare: 5x Nurgle Knights w/Banner of Rage 5x Trolls 1x TzWarshrine So yeah, my first magic phase sucked as i rolled 2 power dice...(my skaven friend sold his soul for dice rolling apparently) needless to say I got no spells off. His first turn, magic phase kills off 16 of my 40 marauders with plague and he power scrolls(halves casting cost item) 13th spell and utterly destroys ALL TzWarriors AND my BSB! Have I mentioned I HATE SKAVEN!!!! >:( Though he swears it's just that he's that good and that he'd let us play his army vs him (using one of our armies) ...haven't taken him up on that just yet, but tempted to... I was able to steal his plague with 3rd Eye and do the same to him killing off like 10 or 15 of his general's clanrats, no panic. Then my amazing rolling abilities allowed him to choose the next target, which was my marauders, more die...down to like 15 :'( 2nd or 3rd turn he blasts through my knights and leaves 3 of them, they are down to 2 by the time I concede...3rd turn I think...just way to over powered for me not to want to throw things and flip the table... My thought would be make a backstory and have the "magic" be Khorne blessing his followers or something...but high magic/caster army, with chosen star, 3rd eye in there somewhere, definitely a dispell scroll!!!! and infernal puppet. Not much you can do against skaven without magic or magic defense...and 13th ignores magic resistance, which is BS imho... I made up an army from some of the guys on here, using Lvl4 Heavens, with Conjoined Homon, and debating on keeping blood of tzeentch or not on him, just basically guarantee a lot of casting...along with book of secrets/dispel scroll BSB and a disc infernal puppet/3rd eye lvl2 to steal the enemies spells. Also had Chosen Star cause I feel fight cheese with cheese... Edited by jerm20201, Jan 12 2012, 05:46 AM.
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| Khurdur | Jan 12 2012, 05:49 AM Post #9 |
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The Chosen
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my hard experience says we can't beat skaven without a Lv.4, and even then it hard. Take Dark Elves, thats what I did. My witch elves buffed by a cauldron cut his men to bits, my CoK with unkillable lord killed one Abom and the grey seer, the hydra killed half a unit, my Lv.1 sorceress with fire in two turns blew away one abom due to being able to roll all dice on one spell and force an irresistable, and my repeater xbows mopped up the rest. Beat broken with broken ! |
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| Khurdur | Jan 12 2012, 05:49 AM Post #10 |
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The Chosen
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my hard experience says we can't beat skaven without a Lv.4, and even then it hard. Take Dark Elves, thats what I did. My witch elves buffed by a cauldron cut his men to bits, my CoK with unkillable lord killed one Abom and the grey seer, the hydra killed half a unit, my Lv.1 sorceress with fire in two turns blew away one abom due to being able to roll all dice on one spell and force an irresistable, and my repeater xbows mopped up the rest. Beat broken with broken ! PS-no chosen either...how many can we really have? 12-16-18, one dreaded thirteenth will kill hundreds of points worth of chosen warriors of the gods.... Edited by Khurdur, Jan 12 2012, 05:52 AM.
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| jerm20201 | Jan 12 2012, 06:01 AM Post #11 |
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Soul Stealer
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That's why you take a dispel scroll and a lvl4, plus infernal puppet :P make him think twice about casting D13th! |
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| Crom | Jan 12 2012, 08:55 AM Post #12 |
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The Chosen
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Knights are immune to the 13th as well as Monstrous Infantry just fyi. |
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| Hinge | Jan 12 2012, 10:33 AM Post #13 |
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Exalted Guardian
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We have several tools and tactics that are excellent against skaven, especially when you can purpose build your list (v. an all-comers list). Death Magic. Spirit Leach is great since Skaven characters do not benefit from Strength in Numbers when it comes to “unmodified” Leadership (per faq). Doom and Darkness is also excellent if you can get it. Think about a L2 with a scroll and Iron Curse Icon. Tzeetch Magic. Three great spells. Flick for fire magic missile. Gateway for raw damage. The one you want the most is Pandemonium. This impacts their leadership as well as requires them to dispel on their turn (eating up power dice). Flick and Gateway must be targeted at Abombs and jezzails first and foremost. The puppet. Hitting a 25+ for dreaded thirtieth takes lots of dice. You have the scroll to stop the first casting he does IF and the puppet to punish him if he does. The ideal result is to push up to loses D3 levels/spells. This includes the D13. Once you neuter his magic, it becomes much easier. Also, with the Bell, you do not score any points unless both the bell and seer are dead. Obviously if he rolls low, then push down to Dimensional Cascade. Blasted Banner-Stick on the knights, preferably with MoT. Fast Cav- Your friend elected not to take gutter runners. Make him pay. Three to four units of fast cav. This will put a lot of pressure on his shooting units. Hunt down his Jezzails and WLC. They also do good work in helping control the Abomb(s) movement. Re-read the random movement rules closely. If the Random Move brings you into contact with an enemy unit, it is treated as a Normal Charge. This means that he must bring the maximum number of units into contact and allows you to control where his over run goes. Many Skaven players play it that they can clip. Hell Cannon is a mixed bag. Against double WLC, you are probably in trouble. However, if you have Panda up, it can be devastating. Frankly, I use it against the slaves to get them to scamper off. Sure, not point efficient, but it clears a path to get to his other stuff. The Lord is not useful against skaven unless he can fly or has a 3+ ward and CoC to stick something. Bump the Warrior units to 17-18. This makes it really tough to kill the entire unit with D13 (Average is 14). This means he has to expend additional resources to get the points. Frankly, 4 frenzied Warriors can hold a slave unit for a little while. |
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| Khurdur | Jan 13 2012, 05:36 PM Post #14 |
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The Chosen
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thanks.... I hate the fact lords aren't really that good, and even at the large value of 2500 we can't fit a big lord and a Lv.4 sorceror ! |
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| Khurdur | Jan 13 2012, 05:42 PM Post #15 |
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The Chosen
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I could run at 2k Sorceror-Lv.4 third eye, infernal puppet, necrotic phylactery-345p Ex. hero. BSB, MoK, MR 3, ironcurse icon, shield-205p core 35 Marauders-MoK, GW, standard-213p 40 Marauders-MoK, GW, standard-238p 16 Warriors of chaos, MoK, muso-halberds, shields-307p 17 Warriors of chaos, MoK, muso-halbrds, shields-325p 17 warriors of chaos, MoK-FC-359, flaming banner-359p this ought to take the skaven out? drown the ratmen in frenzied followers of Khorne ! Edited by Khurdur, Jan 13 2012, 05:44 PM.
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4:25 PM Jul 11