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The Chaos Gods animosity; A discussion.
Topic Started: Sep 29 2006, 06:17 AM (1,188 Views)
Skyldig
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Exalted Guardian
Hello! ^_^


I've undergone some criticizm for wanting to play a mortal army considering of the gods Khorne/Slaanesh, something I totally can't understand. And I want a discussion about the different constellation of the gods.

It's been told to me that Khorne/Slaanesh is the only ones that hate each other. Where does this information come from? I haven't seen it in the 2 latest army books :huh:

At the same time, I've been told Tzeentch/Khorne is the most common constellation. How could that be? Simply speaking, we're dealing with a god that despices magic above all, and a god that thrives upon it.

Is Slaanesh viable together with any other god? the very same thing people have told me, is that Slaanesh/Nurgle is the most commonly accepted alliance for the Dark Prince. Again, a god that worships beauty, together with its extreme opposite?

Is there any constellations that are more accepted than others? Why would that be?

In term of power balance, wouldn't all gods be ready to alliance with any one of the other, if the circumstance is right?

Don't they all hate each other just as much?

I foolhardy suspect its player prejudice about it all, but I must be wrong. Or am I?


I've no answers, just questions and more questions. I hope you people out there can shred some light on the dark gods views upon each other. I would be very very greateful even.

// Skyldig
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Rimmz
The Chosen

Al the Gods pretty much hate each other thats kinda a given. Some dont mind each other that much Thogh Khorne really only hates Tzeench I dont know whear they got Slannesh from.

However the one thing that most people miss when they blast someone for using multiple marks in an Army is that all the followers of Chaos will team up to smash something Non Chaos.

It really comes down to they hate each other but they hate everyone else more.
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Tammil Augrimm
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The Change Chosen

Actually each chaos god has his opposite that he really doesn't get along with (although none of them really get along very well). Though at times the gods put aside there differences and join together, and a charismatic undivided leader can unite even opposing factions(it's just rare).

Anyways, fluffwise the gods oppose each other as follows, based mostly it seems upon the mortal emotion/instinct that first spawned them:

Khorne(rage/survival instinct) vs Slannesh(pleasure/mating instinct)

Tzeentch(hope) vs Nurgle(despair)


The gods that function best together are Khorne + Nurgle(as war and death go hand in hand) and Tzeetch + Slannesh(as their rather manipulative natures are compatable).

While it's true that Tzeetch/Khorne and Slannesh/Nurgle have little love lost on each other, they aren't truely in opposition, more like heated rivalry.

As to exactly where the fluff for this can be found.... I'm not really sure. Been doing and reading this stuff for 10 years and it's all started to blur together. :wacko:
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snyggejygge
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High Zar of Khorne

The fluff about the different Chaos Gods & their hatred towards each other was first mentioned in the old Realm of Chaos, Slaves to Darkness Book from 1988, it is the first Chaos book ever released & is full of fluff about Khorne & Slaanesh, it´s all about their rivalry, full armylists (back then the lists were a lot cooler, w. Chaos Dwarfs, dark Elves, greenskins & undead avaliable to Chaos, as well as the things we have now).

About 2 years later the book Realm of Chaos, the Lost & the Damned was released, having even more fluff & covering the rivalry between Nurgle & Tzeentch.

Both of these books had over 300 pages each & covered both fantasy, RPG & 40K.

Some of the stuff can be found in the armybooks released after that as well, such as in Warhammer Armies: Chaos, & the newer realm of Chaos book from 1997 & I think that there are a few notes about it in the Liber Chaotica.

For some reason many people think that Khorne hates Tzeentch the most (just look at Rimmz), which is not true, he despises magic, but hate the way Slaanesh´s warriors form their lives & how they fight in battle, he wants rage in battle, not pleasure!
This fact comes from a book called the World of warhammer, where for some reason Khorne & Tzeentch hate eachother more than the other gods, but this is the only book saying it, while all the others (both earlier & newer) says that it is Khorne - Slaanesh & Tzeentch - Nurgle. & well some people just assume it because it says Khorne despises Magic.

So there you have it (Tammil was right):
Khorne(rage) vs Slannesh(pleasure)

Tzeentch(hope) vs Nurgle(despair)


Hope this helps a little (& yes I am the lucky owner of all the books mentioned, that´s why I know so much about Chaos in general).
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Skyldig
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Exalted Guardian
The only thing I've ever read, was that Khorne despises Slaanesh most of all, but he still tends to make use of the dark prince if it suits him. I read it from the 5h ed army book.

If what you said Snyggejygge is correct, I salute you :)

But I'm still confused as I seem no logic in it. Too me, Khorne/Slaanesh share more together than Tzeentch/Khorne or Slaanesh/Nurgle for example, ever would. There is this pride. Both enjoy battle (in their own ways). They're lost of thoughts of their own mortality (at least their followers).

Perhaps I just wish it to be true. But I've never seen that one chaos god hates another so much they would never join causes. To me, it would be logical if they just "hated" the other ones just as much.

There is also lesser gods, "mini manifestations" of the bigger 4. Wouldn't it be possible for someone worshipping a lesser deity of say, revenge (i.e Khorne in the end), get the mark, and join forces for his cause with another god?

Just speculation I know, but it's interesting to see how the gods view each other. I get the feeling people say its Slaanesh/Tzeentch vs the rest most of the time, but then it would be no chaos, would it? :unsure:
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Tammil Augrimm
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The Change Chosen

Skyldig
Sep 29 2006, 04:07 PM
Both enjoy battle (in their own ways).

All chaos gods enjoy battle. It's how they test their followers and all of them thrive and feed on the energy it produces (though Khorne more so than the others).

As to how the gods view each other it's basically like eternal rivals, though Slannesh, being the youngest God, is often viewed as an interloper.

I've always pictured them as 4 different sharks circling the bloody peice of meat that is the emotional energy of the material realm. Each one vies with the others continuously in order to get the largest, juiciest hunk of flesh, and thereby increase his own power, preferably at the expense of the others (Slannesh in particular enjoys seducing the champions of the other gods over to his side, especially champions of the Blood God).

And while a champion of the Gods in their varied forms (the Khorne/vengence one you mentioned for example) still wouldn't ally himself with followers of the "lesser" dieties and certainly wouldn't put himself under their command. A follower of chaos in general however.... that might be possible assuming they share common goals.

All of this said, there is still no reason why you can't combine the forces of Khorne/Slannesh or Tzeentch/Nurgle, or even all 4 at once if you so choose, as long as they are under the banner of Chaos Undivided. These things HAVE happened in the old world before and will happen again. Even hated rivals will lay down their differences sometimes if they share a greater enemy or goal (such as duing the Chaos Incursions, whcih most battles using chaos represent, unless you're fighting another chaos army).
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Lightbringer
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Evil Wizards Inc.
Quote:
 
But I'm still confused as I seem no logic in it. Too me, Khorne/Slaanesh share more together than Tzeentch/Khorne or Slaanesh/Nurgle for example, ever would. There is this pride. Both enjoy battle (in their own ways).

Well in the case of Slaanesh, its not really pride, it is some sort of vanity.

I view it like this. The rivalries are because they are opposites in many way. Tzeentch stands for change renewal and life. He revels in the intricacies of society and the cycle of life. There is (was) even a special character who spreads life everywhere he goes, if he steppes foot on a rock then grass and trees will spring out from the stone around him. Nurgle however stands for decay stagnation and corruption. His champions erode things around them, corruption and making it unchanging and monotonous, and his deceases will tear down societies. So they are directly opposed in this way.

Khorne stands for pride strength and rage, but also in some ways honor, while Slaanesh on the other hand stands for deceit lust and vanity. Khorne loves fighting, because fighting is a test of strength. Slaanesh also loves fighting, but not because of strength but because of the sensations of war. He fights for vanity instead of pride. While Khorne is represented by the proud and strong warrior, Slaanesh is represented by the lustfull and vain noble. So they are also opposed.


Sure, Khorne does not like magic, and Tzeentch thrive on it. So they don't like each other. But they are not directly opposed in the same way since they are involved in fundamentaly different things.
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Slave to Darkness
Slave
[ * ]
Skyldig
Sep 29 2006, 04:07 PM
If what you said Snyggejygge is correct, I salute you :)

It is.

I just wrote some stuff for you on Druchii.net.
I don't think I should crosspost it here.
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Storch
Slave
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But there are other ways of looign at things.
For example, Tzeentch is change incarnate. Nurgle, symbol of decay could be looked at as another form of change. Hence you would think they would work well together.

Being a new convert from 40k, I know that they specifically spell out that certain gods are rivals and will not work together. It's actually part of the codex. In Fantasy, to my knowledge, no such restirction exists outside of fluff arguments.
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Pete
King Lefty
but what does that change represent? Tzeentch's change represents growth and improvemet, but Nurgle's is decay. One can say that Tzeentch is a creator and Nurgle a destroyer. Each others direct opposites. And the emotions they represent is opposite as well. Tzeentch feed from hope, and Nurgle from despair. AS they feed from this they want more of it (and naturally less of the other). Therefore they're a horrifically bad match fluffwise.
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sinister79
Slave
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I saw something diferent in theWH world, about the followers of the 4 gods. The worshipers of Khorn came only from the nord tribes. The Slaanesh seduse the nobles o warriors from other races like brets or the empire and I think that's the way he colleckt champions.
The nurgle are outsiders, if your tribe don't want you if you are diferent you go to chaos. Fot the guy with magig I'll say nothing.
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bazzar
The Chosen
Quote:
 
But there are other ways of looign at things.
For example, Tzeentch is change incarnate. Nurgle, symbol of decay could be looked at as another form of change. Hence you would think they would work well together.


no nurgle is not change nurgle ends life not changes it, while the diseases change their victims it is not for the sake of change itself, the victims don't hope for change they despair of it as the changes they have experienced have been for the worse and don't look to the future but to the past before they were diseased. This is why tzeentch is fundamentally opposed to nurgle. In short tzeentch-hope for better future, nurgle despair of life/future.
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Vardek Crom
Slave
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I see it like this:

Khorne is opposed to Tzeencht and Slaanesh.
Nurgle is opposed to Tzeencht.
Slaanesh is opposed to Khorne.
Tzeencht is opposed to Khorne and Nurgle.

Khorne think Tzeencht is too tricksy, and Slaanesh to soft.
Nurgle seek to destroy while Tzeencht wants to evolve and create.
Slaanesh thinks Khorne as crude and unsophisticated.
Tzeencht regards Khorne as barbarious and Nurgle as destructive.
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bazzar
The Chosen
the thing about khorne and slaanesh is that slaanesh is the youngest of the gods and khorne sees him as an upstart, and what emption is further from bloodlust than just plain lust? It is more about the emotions of mortals than about the whims of the gods as the emotions give the gods their power.
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Vardek Crom
Slave
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bazzar:

Don't you think, if a mortal whose interests are science, magic and elolution, thereby feeding Tzeencht, would felt animosity towards someone who lusts for destruction?
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