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| Can´t decide, need some opinions | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 19 2006, 05:24 PM (358 Views) | |
| Grishnak | Oct 19 2006, 05:24 PM Post #1 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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First of all, hi there ! This is my first post here, coming over from The Waaagh! I´m about to start a new army project, once my wood elves are complete (only 9 models to go !). I started my Warhammer career with vampire counts, and I also have an orc army (which I intend to partially swap for chaos stuff because I´ve not painted it on my own). Next army will be chaos, definitely. But there are so many ways to go, I simply can´t decide. First consideration : go magic heavy or not ? I personally don´t like something in between, so I´d either just include enough dispel power to survive or have superior magic powers to be able to cast spells even against 7 dispel dice dwarves. Next consideration : I have some models I could convert. Orc chariots could make good beast chariots, dire wolves could be used as chaos hounds, a giant is a giant. Number of models : I´d rather not start a horde army, because I´m not the fastest painter. So a pure beast army with lots of herds is no option. Cost : I hate to include this consideration, but my wife would kill me if I spend a fortune on a pure mino army. Seriously. Summing all this up I could see two options with some possible alterations. First would be a beast army with two herds, some chariots, maybe centigors, furies, some minotaurs, rare slots filled with either giant, shaggoth, fiends or dragon ogres. Characters either combat oriented with beastlord and just a scroll caddie (maybe something with mark of khorne for additional dispel dice) or magic oriented with great bray shaman with slaanesh mark and two more shamans. Or tzeentch marked wargors ? Second, a fast, mortal slaanesh or tzeentch army with chaos knights, chariots, hounds, either mounted daemonettes or screamers and stuff like this... The big question is - which one is more versatile, more rewarding to paint and play, more competitive on tourneys ? I´d appreciate any hints, thoughts or else ! Thanks a lot for working your way through my sometimes messy thoughts... |
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| Tammil Augrimm | Oct 19 2006, 08:05 PM Post #2 |
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The Change Chosen
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Well I'm not much of a beasts player, I can comment of the mortal side. Tzeentch - Lots of powerdice and magical blast without having to give up your fighting edge. Spellcasting Exalteds OWN, especially if they get orange fire. Being the Master of Mutation, Tzeentch armies also provide nearly limitless conversion opportunities for the ambitious modeler, as all things are possible in a Tzeetch force. The downsides? Well losing your resistance to psychology means that Tzeetch armies are no better lead than the weaklings of the empire or other such (7 for your basic troops, 8 for elites and heros, 9 for your lord), meaning you will fail a lot more fear and panic checks with a Tzeetch army than ANY other chaos force (all that magical power comes at a price...) and the mark of Tzeentch carries a hefty pricetag on it, meaning your army will be smaller than other chaos armies. Lastly, the Lore of Change is perhaps the weakest of the Chaos Lores, though it makes up for lack of quality with massed quantity. Slannesh - Slannesh has the cheapest mark (other than undivided of coarse), and it gives significant benefits. No failed fear tests for you! No units panicing from enemy fire either. The lore of Slannesh is perhaps the best Lore a chaos general can take, with a very versitile list of spells. Slannesh conversions are usually very sleek and look good on the tabletop as well. Downsides? Being immune to psycology means you can't flee a charge, which limits some of your tactical flexabiltiy and your mages aren't very good in combat...... and that's about it really. The best answer? Probabily a mix of the 2 using an Undivided General. Tzeentch troops proviode the powerdice for the Slannesh sorcerers to cast their impressive lor with, while slannesh and undivided troops give the army the backbone that the Tzeetch troops lack. An undivided exalted leading a Tzeentch exalted and a pair of slannesh sorcerers (plus their followers) has it's possibilites..... *Sidenote: I play a Tzeentch Cavalry army myself as my mainstay, but wanted to be fair to the other powers instead of just pimping my own alliegience. B) * |
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| Grishnak | Oct 19 2006, 08:47 PM Post #3 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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May I ask you to post a rough outline of your Tzeentch cavalry army ? Sounds quite interesting, but I guess to begin with it might be better to start undivided... |
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| Tammil Augrimm | Oct 19 2006, 09:08 PM Post #4 |
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The Change Chosen
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I'll link you to it. Tzeentch Rodeo List It can be a difficult list that needs to be used with care to avoid getting blasted to bits. The daemons are the glue which hold it together. ^_^ Edit: Given the changes in 7th, I'll probabily be changing my lord's GW to a flail. |
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| archysucks_Hail_Crom | Oct 19 2006, 09:42 PM Post #5 |
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I've got candy......
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firstly welcome!! I like to mix and match marks as I see fit. :D my army for the past couple months so far 35/6/4 you would be amazed at how many people focus their shooting on the giant instead of the Do knights and horsemen. B) My mino army Though in hind sight I would place warriors in a 6x3 formation and spend the points on some better screnns teh dogs didn't do so well. I played with this army for nearly a year and it actually ended up getting banned no one wanted to play it anymore. :lol: |
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| Rimmz | Oct 20 2006, 01:08 AM Post #6 |
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The Chosen
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I would definately say go Mortal if your looking at cost effectiveness cost more points and they have plastic options unlike Demons. The mark is a tough call for what you want to take. If you wanna go magic light and just protect yourself there is only one real option and I dont think anyone will argue this point: Khorne. Every marked unit and hero give an aditional dispell die (Dwarves eat your heart out) They also get frenzy which makes them icky in combat. Chosen Khorne Knights are not called "The Blender" for nothing If you wanna go Magic heavy you have 2 options. All Tzeench yes the lore is probally the weakest of the Chaos lists but thats like saying a Ferarri F40 isnt as fast as a CCR. You can also augment your Tzeench with undivided sorcerers which after 7th came out have 3 nasty lores to choose from. Which leads into the 2nd option. An undivided list with a Slannesh/Nurgle core troop choice and some Tzeench units to boost the power dice avaliable. This has the advantage of allowing you to use the Nurgle/Slanessh lores with the Tzeench power boost. The drawback to this is that your General has to be undivided and to go magic heavy your general should be a lv4 caster so your choices are either a Exalted Chaos Sorcerer (Mediocre combat good casting only ld8) or a Demon Prince (Awesome combat Good casting a crap ton and a half of points) the DP can lead a mortal army with a 5 point gift so that isnt an issue. If you play Slannesh or Nurgle exclusively you wont be able to go either magic heavy or magic defense you will be in the middle like most armies. Magic isnt a strenght or weakness for either of these types of lists. |
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| Grishnak | Oct 20 2006, 04:27 PM Post #7 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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@Tammil Augrimm Thanks for the list, this is a quite interesting army ! VERY low number of models, though, but your success proves that not everything counts in numbers (I´m used to 100+ models from playing greenskinz and infantry vampire counts...). @archysucks Hail Crom Only 6 dispel dice and NO scrolls in a 2500 points army ? That looks like a rather weak magic defense. What if you encounter 12+ energy dice high elves, 2nd gen slann or tzeentch demonic legion ? Are you happy with these two infantry units ? Used to play infantry vampires (strigoi with grave guard) but gave that up for better mobility. Never looked back again. The mino army looks awesome, but I could never afford to buy it without getting killed by my wife. @Rimmz Undivided general in a mixed army sounds like a good approach too. Tammils army seems to be rather extreme (only 35 models, but they all rule !), archys army contains too much infantry for my liking. In a 2000 points list I guess a demon prince is not affordable, points wise, so I would be the exalted sorcerer, possibly on a steed with staff of change to prevent miscasting... |
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| Tammil Augrimm | Oct 20 2006, 06:18 PM Post #8 |
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The Change Chosen
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Unfortunately Grishnak, an exalted sorcerer can't take the staff of change as it is Tzeentch only. Besides an Exalted champion lead army can still be pretty magical. An undivided exalted(for fighting power) leading an exalted of Tzeentch(for more fighty power and some magical support) and a pair of Slannesh lev 2's (for the lore, give one a spell familiar) can still get 10+ power dice in the magic phase with the simple addition of a couple of tzeentch units (say chariots or knights). Also remeber tht if you really want, you can take a lev. 4 brayshaman or Beastlord of Tzeentch (with an accomanying herd of coarse) and still have your mortal exalted as your general as his leadership is at least as high as the beasts is. |
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| Rimmz | Oct 20 2006, 08:29 PM Post #9 |
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The Chosen
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Yeah and if you take a Beastlord of Tzeench you can still take the staff of change. Ive actually used a Demon Prince in a 2k tourney he was doing really well untill he decided to go poof on me (long story that involves many swear words) You can tool up a DP for about 550 points and yeah thats about 25% of your army but if you use him right he can eaisly kill more than that. My typical DP is this: Daemon Prince @ 555 Pts Mark of Chaos Undivided; Lore of Shadow; Magic Level 4 Master of Mortals [5] Diabolic Splendour [20] Soul Hunger [25] Blade of the Ether [45] He is a true killer and is almost unkillable in a 2k army Still leaves you 1500 poinst for troops and other casters |
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| Grishnak | Oct 20 2006, 08:42 PM Post #10 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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"Almost" sounds like "almost, but not quite entirely unlikely to get killed" (know the origin of the quote ? :) ) What CAN actually kill this demon prince beast ? I regularly face dwarves with cannon, bolt throwers and organ cannon... OK, I could avoid the organ cannon, but the others are quite dangerous, inflicting possibly more than one wound per hit. |
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| Rimmz | Oct 20 2006, 09:55 PM Post #11 |
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The Chosen
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Well the beauty of a Demon prince is he isnt a large target so you can attach him to units and he cant get shot at. he can also hide behind normal line troops and not be a target allthough he can still be cannon sniped. The trick to playing Chaos well is to make sure the enemy war machines are removed from play ASAP. You have alot of tools to make this happen. Some good combat fast cav (marauder horsemen) Some nasty fliers (Screamers and Furies) if you have a unit or 2 of any of these you can threaten his warmachines by turn 2. As far as what else can kill him. There are other lord heros that can stand up to him allthough not many. A Vampire lord, Chaos lords, a Dwarf lord has a chance if he is equiped correctly, and of course Greater Demons. The thing is with all of these though some have a chance (mabye not a good one) and even a GD wouldent fight a DP without thinking about it first. IMO a DP is the best combo your going to get of magical power and combat ability in a Chaos army outside of a Tzeench lord. Another option is to take an exalted sorcerer of Nurgle or Slanesh and give them the Demonsword this makes them very potent fighters allthough at a cost of 85 points. |
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