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Improving Daemon Princes; Some ideas to make them more appealing
Topic Started: Jun 12 2007, 10:09 PM (372 Views)
Tammil Augrimm
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The Change Chosen

Since the release of 6th Edition chaos (a fine army composition that I am mostly quite happy with), Daemonic characters, and daemons as a whole, really haven't seen a great deal of play in Hordes and Beasts armies. This is a pity as the concept of daemons (and especially Daemonic Champions) is really quite cool and at the center of chaos fluff, as the ultimate goal of the mortal champion is to acheive the revered status of Daemonhood. It is quite a pity then that said Champions who have reached their exalted goal rarely see much play (outside of the Daemon Legion list.... which you are no longer allowed to use at many tournaments).

This is mainly due to the fact that Daemonic characters simply cannot stand up to their mortal counterparts, even though in fluff and background they are supposedly more powerfull, almost of demi-god status. A well equiped Chaos Lord can make mincemeat out of the mightiest Daemon Prince, as can an Exalted Champion of an Exalted Daemon. Daemons lose out on many benefits that mortals enjoy such as great armour saves, equipment options (especially strength boosting weapons), magical items (Daemonic gifts really cannot compare), and the benefits of leading a unit (can you say "shooting bait"?). They also suffer from instabitity, and having your 400+ point Daemon Prince"poof" is a bitter pill for any chaos general to swallow. Certain types of daemon (namely Khonre) are even worse as they can be forced, because of their frenzy, to charge to their deaths against a ranked up unit that they can't beat in combat even should they hit and wound with every attack, forcing unfluffy tactics such as facing the Daemon away from the enemy until you are ready for him to charge....

Considering that both types take an additional hero slot and are significantly more expensive pointswise than their mortal counterparts ( 90 pts for a Daemon Prince and a whopping 130 for Exalted Daemon), this is really not acceptable either fluffwise or tactically.

Below are a few ideas I've been kicking around to improve the quailty and thus attractiveness of Daemonic Champions....

Daemon Prince

Code:
 
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
6  8  0 6 5 4 8 5 9


Exalted Daemon

Code:
 
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
6  7  0 5 5 3 7 4 8


Equipment: Daemon Weapon and Daemon Armour

Special rules

Daemon Weapon: Daemon Princes and Exalted Daemons weild gigantic weapons seething with raw chaos energy. Though the form these weapons take varies (be they massive axes, swords, flails or even more bizzare creations of mortal imagination), they all share simliar characteristics. Daemon Weapons, as all daemonic attacks, count as magical, also, do to their enormous size and power, Daemon Weapons weapons impose an additional -1 armour save penalty in additon to the Daemon's Strength modifier. ( I mean come on, if an ogre club gets an additional -1 save modifier because of it's size, a daemon weilding an axe as big as an ogre should get a similiar benefit). Should a Daemon choose a daemonic gift that takes the form of a weapon, such as a Plague Flail or Axe of Khorne for example, then the addition armour save penalty is lost.

Daemon Armour: Just as the motal champions of the gods are protected by enchanted suits of chaos armour, so too are they so protected after their accension to Daemonhood, their armour growing larger and thicker to cover their monsterous forms.
These massive suits of chaos armour provide Daemon Princes and Exalted Daemons with a 3+ armour save. (though still vulnerable to warengine fire, at least the daemon is somwhat protected from arrows, bolts, and bullets... though enough fire will still bring one down.)

Terror: Same as always.

Fly: same as always

Options: Same as those listed in the Hordes of Chaos army book.

Suggested New Daemonic Gifts:

Any Power

Mortal Manifestation Point cost: ???

The Daemon is exceptionally skilled at manefesting itself in the material world. The Daemon does not suffer fromn instability and instead takes break tests as normal.

Khorne

Focused Rage Point Cost: ???

The Daemon has had untold centuries to use it's great will to master and focus it's battle rage. If a Daemon with this gift is forced to charge because of frenzy, the controlling player may make a leadership test to avoid the charge and move the Daemon normally instead.


Comments, point costs, additonal suggestions, and well intentioned and thought out ridicule are welcome. ^_^
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
I have to say i totally agree, i think perhaps you need to look abit more at the stat line as well, personally i think that daemon characters should also gain a extra leadership, it would also be very nice is flying was a option rather than a must have. Extra items would be really great as well, maybe bring back a few of the 5th ed things, hell, i am the only one who misses daenomic robes.

Something i think would make alot more sense would be for exalted daemons and core daemons to have a 5+ ward while daemon princes and greater daemons to have a 4+ ward save.

Other things that confuse me, while the hell is a bloodletter far worse than a chaos warrior, sure he has a higher strength but he attacks last and is easier to kill with only t3! Another thing that has bugged me is that khorne daemons suffer from frenzy, i mean, for something that is just a extension of a god dont you think he would be abit beyond that.
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Tammil Augrimm
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The Change Chosen

It makes perfect sense that Bloodletters suffer from frezy. They ARE physical manifestations of pure rage and bloodlust after all..... Remeber that the Chaos Gods (and their daemons) are not rational beings as mortals define such. Khorne is a being of pure rage (the emotional energy that spawned him and enpowers him still...) and such so are the fragments of his power that he manifests as Bloodletters and Flesh Hounds.

Ld 10 might be too good for a model that can lead any army. I did improve the Prince's stats a bit, giving him an extra pip of strength, which makes sense as if a mortal lord is S5, you'd think one that's twice as tall (and thus 8 times as massive) would be stronger.... and it makes up somewhat for the lack of a simple GW, halberd, or flail.

And yes, I miss Damonic Robes.... I fondly remeber the days of my Daemon Prince of Nurgle zipping about immune to arrows and other S3 attacks.... especially fun when battling elves. ^_^ I can see why they took it out though, what with the lessening of stats and whatnot they'd probably be too powerful in current editions. Everyone would take the darned things.

Overall I agree taht Daemonic Gifts as a whole need some improving, but I just suggested a few that would midigate some of the greater problems Daemonic Characters face compared to their mortal cousins.
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
You would think that something that powerful would have more common sense than to charge a fully ranked up unit to a single model :P and hes the god of war, it says he is precieved as a angry god, it dosnt mean, well as i just said :P

I did notice you have improved the strength, its ok, sure for the size he should be alot stronger, well, i guess, does a daemon actually have muscles and thus does that dictate his strength (just a thought). Sure it would be rather good however what it does do is make exalted also a option for a leader (cos currently you have to admit its a major draw back that chaos have to go above 2k to actually get ldr increase, well 2k and above)

Daenoimic robes used to be far more funny on great unclean ones and blood thirster, you know its true when bret knights can hurt you after the charge and still struggle on the charge :D Didnt everyone take daenomic robes in 5th anyways? :P

Well yes, anyways they do need new gifts, but what, i was originally gona say basicly going back to the old system however i think that could be abit to far. Somthing that maybe no one has thought is perhaps they should be aloud to choose certain magic items, it works in 40k so why not in warhammer. I think it stands to reason that if a guy becomes a daemon prince he would able to keep his weapon in a slightly altered form.

Perhaps daemons should be able to take up to say 75pts of magic items and say only from the armour (but not shields) or weapons section and then 50pts of daenomic gifts (but only a 100 in total).

Now daenomic gifts, i think the long and the short is that you remove the weapons, and perhaps add a few,maybe something for nurgle enemies wishing to charge the target must retake passed fear or terror tests.

armour of khorne, perhaps a a additional +1 to armour saves, perhaps syuff like additional army, head, perhaps take ideas from the 5th ed chaos gifts.


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Rimmz
The Chosen
I like the idea of giving them the 4+ rather than the 5+ Ward. The Armor is kind of taking the thunder from Khorne though perhaps make it a 4+ and Khorne's a 3+.

The gift that makes em break rather than poof is much needed.

The Khorne one though I think is a little over the top IMO if you play Khorne you need to know how to manage Frenzy units.
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