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Why is chaos underpowered?
Topic Started: Aug 8 2007, 06:03 PM (729 Views)
Skyldig
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Exalted Guardian
Why is chaos underpowered?

In a competitive environment, chaos seems rather weak compared to most armies, naturally due to our cost effectiviness, or lack there of. Cheap lords and rank and file, perform alot better than expensive ones, just as many other types of units does in shooting, magic etc etc.

A cheap lord can afford full magic item allowance, and still be able to "earn" the points back, or flat out defeat a more expensive lord without much equipment.

Much goes down to the nature of having 6 turns, so units need to perform, and perform fast, in order to earn their spots on the battlefield. And Combat resolution do count here. What use is 20 chaos warriors with full CR, when it can potentially be held up by 30 skaven slaves for most of their turns? Most rank and file fields few attacks, and besides resilience, most such fights tend to be even, and last for several turns. Thus, the cheaper you get units, the better you spend your points.


But I've been wondering if Chaos big fault isn't ourselves. As GW's "pet" army, people have an oppinion on chaos no matter what. And it restricts us. Let me explain that a little more.

Generally, mixing marks is frowned upon. Pairing up Slaanesh and Khorne is bad, Khorne with sorcerers is bad, Nurgle with Tzeentch is bad (although, since its not that powerful on the tabletop, people seldom complain about the fluffyness of this, as in slaanesh/Khorne). The same goes with races, beastmen with mortals with daemons. It should be one, not two.

Personally I do however think all of the above are sorely wrong, and that everything could be mixed without contradicting to the background even the slighest. And it brought up a question, what if we stopped limiting ourselves?

Chaos is the most versatile army list of them all, but we NEVER use it. We stick to Khorne mortals, Nurgle deamons etc etc always. What if we did a competive army with slaanesh sorcers, powered up by tzeentch dice with khorne cavalry? A few flyers, beast screens, taking advantage of the ambushing rule and using the cheap exalteds and beastlords at our disposal?


Surely, such an army wouldn't be more "out of the loop" than an Empire army with only knights, wizards and artillery (as is beginning to get so common)?

Do yo think Chaos, in such a way, would be competitive to the other armies?

And, why does this composition cause such an outcry among players? Cherry-picking seems to be fine with every army, but ours. And if we didn't limit ourselves but did the same, I think chaos could be competitive, or what do you think?

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Tammil Augrimm
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The Change Chosen

Hmmm, I don't really see chaos as underpowered. Overall, we are quite balanced for an all close combat army.

We have excellent selections in the form of beastherds, foot marauders, chaos knights(khorne and chosen of coarse), cheap hound fodder, maurauder horsemen, furies, screamers, monsterous troops, and heros. The challenge is to stay away from the "shiny point sinks" we also have such as Chaos Lords, Dragon Ogres(including Shaggoths), Daemonic Characters, large warrior units, most spawn (slannesh not included), and the like. Unless Tzeentch (and looking to get the staff of change), most characters shouldn't need to go over 50pts worth of magical gear (sword of might and gaze of the gods for example).

I've never seen any problem with mixing and matching. For example, my undivided army mixes mortal units (knights, horsemen, chariots, and Exalted Champions) with daemons (furies and screamers) and beasts (beastherds and Bray Shamans) as well as containing marks of Chaos Undivided, Khorne, and Tzeentch. Traditionally armies during the chaos incursions contained all 3 and so I have no problem with feeling "unfluffy" and neither do my regular opponents.

It's actually the chaos community itself, I've found, that has problems with mixing and matching of "unfluffy" armies such as Slannesh/Khorne and Tzeetnch/Nurgle, neither of which is really a good combination anyways. Tzeentch/Slannesh(marked units powering Slannesh magic) , Khorne/Nurgle (nurgle champions leading marauders and Khorne elite units providing their own punch and magic defence), and Tzeentch/Khorne (dominate the offense and defence part of the magic phase!) are better combos anyways.

Some of the problem may stem from the fact that chaos was divided up into 2 seperate army books and so people look at it as inappropriate to "cherry pick" amongst both. Also add in the fact that many players like to theme their armies and we see a general trend to "specialize" the army with only one type with maybe onbly a splash of the others.

Lastly, remeber that any truely competative Daemonic army is a "Daemonic Hordes" list and therefore can't contain troops from the other types.
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Valtiel
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The Chosen
While I'm a new player, I try to mix several marks and units to make my armies as different from each game as possible. At the moment I don't really think that much about the different marks I mix up, fluff-wise that is, but there are certain marks that I favour more than others (Khorne is probably the mark that is used the most, I'm not sure though). I win 50/50 of the games I play, maybe I lose a little more but nevermind that I'm still new and I do usually make some bad mistakes from time to time. While I wouldn't call Chaos underpowered I think they do need some changes in both units and how certain things work.

One of my concerns are the units we can choose. We have a huge variety of units to use and with the several marks we can end up having on some of our units and this is one of the reasons why I like the Chaos army so well. But I dislike how some units are pretty much useless unless you go for fluff armies (imo). Units like Warriors drag down a little because of their cost, but also units such as Chaos Ogres annoy me. I don't know why I should choose these guys instead of Minotaurs that can even get marks while they also have better stats. The only difference it probably armour (that Minotaurs can get from the Mark of Nurgle anyway).

I also used a Shaggoth in a battle and I was only lucky it didn't ran away from combat. A unit of Knights, Chosen or Khorne would have done so much more to gain VP back. Bestigors at the moment are also just like some kind of Minotaurs, and I've never really thought they were that well. So far Daemons have not worked very well and at the moment I can't see why someone should fear them as Daemons are feared in the WH world.

Well, my rant might have almost changed the subject of this post. Imo, the Chaos army is not underpowered I just think we need some changes that will make all of our units work better together with each other and perhaps get some kinds of magic items that can help our cause (imo items like the Dark Heart that the Beastmen can use is really needed with mortal units.
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
You know i dont really think that chaos is under powered at all, i think certain things could have been better (warriors and daemons), sure many chaos players frown upon mixing gods but you will find this kinda fluffy thing will happen with which ever army these people collect. Hell if i ever get round to doing my knights panther army im not going to be using gun powder.

I have agree that khorne is most likely the most common mark, its a shame really because before 6th ed i didnt really many chaos armies in general, let alone khorne.

I found daemons (other than furies and flesh hounds) only worked against people who had no clue to play the game (such as the empire player i heavily outnumbered with a very heavy chaos warrior, i still find this so amusing). Bloodletters are ok, they alright against armies with large amounts of stubborn units, they can work against undead (as i have been told by my regal undead opponent that they ethereal creatures dont have magic attacks) and perhaps orcs, maybe....

You know i find most of the monsters a waste of points, dragon ogres, why bother, they reason i take them is because i ran out of special slots for more minotaurs, giants are ok but hardly the most uncommon unit now in most armies (good ol GW!).

I guess on the bright side we do have some of the best knights in the game, minotaurs, spawn (including bloodbeasts, i know several will disagree but i have to say they have served me well).

I think really they need to do something with our characters because i find it just wrong that we are the only army that afford a marked lord in 2k, that or heros should be allowed more magic items if the general, sure you font need it, tell that to my hero when hes trying to beat through von carsten ring and only has T4!
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Skyldig
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Exalted Guardian
If it is as you all say, then its great, but I still feel chaos suffers from being underpowered, but that this comes mainly from the community itself to force an unimaginative and wrong background upon us.

Have anyone of you heard of comp, or played with it? Noticed how Chaos gets royally screwed when it comes to mixing marks and races? Its even to the extent that anything but a single race, single god path can't be done, and it hampers us.

I've never met a nonchaos player that thought it fine for chaos to mix these things as they choose, although I'm sure this is the only way for chaos to make itslf competitive. You've seen it around the forums as well, players can't post any army list with two marks, without getting trashed for it. Many people seem not to mix, not because its "against a background that is made up by the players", but because its mainly not acceptable by other people to do so. You basically get slandered, and noone wants that.

So I feel that as long as the warhammer community, with its many weirdo players :lol: , thinks of chaos as a list of armies, all following one god and being one race only, that being predictive, dull and unimaginative, we'll always b underpowered because it is not "legal" for us to minmax, in the same way as the other races do without notion.

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Ar'kazail
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Warrior of the Chamber
I think chaos is great, but everything is just WAY too expansive. Chaos lords are around 90-100 pts more than an Exalted champion for only one more wound, attack, and leadership (I think there is more but I dont have the book on me at the moment).

-Chaos warriors should be a point or 2 less.

-Chaos chariots are too expansive because a beast chariot can do the same thing for less. Plus the mortal chariot does not have that good of a model in my opinion.

-I also think they should decrease the cost of some of the marks, mostly my favorite mark, the mark of nurgle. I just cant see paying 50 pts for fear. I think they should either lower it's cost by about 20 pts or give it somthing useful, like a 6+ scaly skin save (just a thought). The mark of slanesh is fine. Khorne could use a monor decrease. And Tzeentch needs to drop 40 pts from the mark for lords and 20 pts for heros.

As for what people think about mixing marks, I dont care what they think about it. Although I useualy like to stick with one mark plus undivided I have in the past had a army with an undivided general, a slanesh sorcerer and knights, a tzeench BSB and a nurgle exaloted in the same army.

When it comes to mixing races I say, just combind the Hordes of Chaos book with the Beasts of Chaos book. That way thy will be in one book and as such less people will have a problem with mixing mortals, beasts, and deamons.

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Skyldig
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Exalted Guardian
Ar'kazail
Aug 9 2007, 10:12 PM
When it comes to mixing races I say, just combind the Hordes of Chaos book with the Beasts of Chaos book. That way thy will be in one book and as such less people will have a problem with mixing mortals, beasts, and deamons.

"rumours" say that chaos will be one book again, as in 5th edition.

I've heard it was only divided to give beastmen some more space, few bought their minis and they didn't have a whole lot of background on themselves in the past. The fact that you could sell another book and get one mroe release date sure didn't hurt economically either :rolleyes:
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Tammil Augrimm
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The Change Chosen

Ummm, I hate to say it, but the Mark of Tzeentch shouldn't be cheaper by any means! It's already a pretty good deal, getting magic levels on your heros and lords for 35pts per level ( the magic item that gives a single magic level, book of secrets, costs 40pts after all). Chaos chariots are also good value for their points. After all, they're tougher and better armoured(to better withstand enemy normal shooting and magic missles) and the crew have higher WS, I, and hit harder, though the steeds are a bit less than the tuskgors.

As for Comp, not all single god armies can get away with it. Take a 16 PD Tzeentch army to a tourny and watch players rape your comp score into oblivion. ^_^
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snyggejygge
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High Zar of Khorne

I think too many think of Chaos as different races, such as beasts, mortals & daemons, while imo we should only see it as one army.

Also w. all the choices we have available, I donīt think Chaos is underpowered, perhaps not as great as Dwarves, Bretonnians or lizards, but still a very viable army, you just need to use it in the right way & use what you need instead of just thinking about fluff all the time (I tend to go for fluffy armies when playing friends, but in tournaments Iīve even been so blasphemous so that I used a Great Bray shaman in a Khornate army)
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
hmm single god dont work? tell that to the people im playing mighty empires with (im joint first and using a pure god army ;) )if any of you visit warsheer me and fatolaf are doing a canpaign atm sp keep an eye out
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brownmccoy
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I>U
Chaos is definitely not underpowered. The chaos list just requires a bit more tactics because of the lack of shooting. The main flaw with chaos, is that there is a lot you can choose from, and is very easy to make an army with no main 'focus' to base your tactics around. You can get expensive warriors, VERY expensive knights, you can get marauders and beastmen....

Basically, there is a huge variety in the non-elite and elitist units, that it is easy to get carried away and not have a good balance between the two. I would reccomend you post your army list and your basic tactics in the army list forum so we can see if you're doing something wrong.
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kerill
Exalted Guardian
Registered for the forum just to debunk this idea.

Chaos mortals are definitely not underpowered.
Beasts got shafted in 7th due to the ranking up rules and loss of movement since they can now be march blocked- ambush now much less useful. On the other hand the fact that doombulls can't be picked out of units has made the doombull+bestigor combo a good one and made doombull lists far more common (with all those wonderful core minotaurs).

Daemons, except SOC list armies are very poor (although nurgle can get by).

Chaos warriors are overcosted although armed with additional hand weapons and the war banner they are still (just) worth it. Khorne marked warriors are great.
Chaos lords are too expensive in small games (except Tzeentch) although I would be tempted by him in undivided for the book of secrets.

Shaggoths are overcosted.

Ok thats the bad side, now on to the good

Mortals have a wonderful range of special and rare unit choices and tremendous fast and hitty core. True daemons are generally poor but furies and screamers are tremendously useful. Khornate hounds are also very good. Nurglings and bloodletters less so but still acceptable.


Chosen knights are wonderful. Chaos knights are great, warhounds may well be the best unit in the game in the hands of a skilled player. I'll say that again WARHOUNDS ARE THE BEST UNIT IN WARHAMMER


Marauders are great and cheap rank and file. Marauder horsemen are possibly the best light cavalry in the game (WS4, S5, cheap- great stuff). Chaos chariots are good and tuskgor ones are even better (at 85 points).

Specials- minotaurs, herds, bestigors, trolls, mounted daemonettes, centigors- all great units.

Rare- spawn one of the few effective cheap tarpits left (now that swarms have been nerfed), fiends especially being wonderful. Bloodbeasts are ok and firewyrms great against undead and horde armies. Dragon ogres are a unit that almost any other army general would readily hand over a testicle to have- the ultimate monster and cavalry killers. Giants for a stubborn tarpit and with a 5+save if you want.

Hellcannon- with this and heavy magic you can actually make an effective defensive list for a change.

Chaos characters are hard as nails and the fact that a hero can easily take on enemy lords is a good thing. Only lizarmen can compare in this regard. S5 means chariot killing is easy, and characters have a good range of choice of normal equipment- GW, Flails, Halberds all have their place, especially in the hands of a character with 4/5 attacks. Hell even their steeds are better. Characters also have a good range of choices of steed from the humble barded steed to a chaos dragon (the best monster in the game). Daemonsteeds and steeds of slaanesh make your unit immune to fear and hit pretty hard, disks are great for spellcasters. Did we mention that chaos has more character choices than any other army?

Magic items: Chaos has the largest selection of magic items of any army and a lot of them are really useful. The best arcane item in the game bar none. A good range of magic weapons (although chaos are so damn hitty you will seldom need one). The best magic armour in the game. The cheapest 4+ward save in the game. The only magic item which protects the character and steed in the game. The best "always strikes first" item in the game. 40 points to make a fighty exalted a spellcaster and boost magic in general.

Lets consider another point- how much more INTERESTING is chaos. Bretonnian general have to decide on knights, knights or maybe different knights. We have marks, the best fluff, the best models, the most conversion posibilities we can collect 12 armies just for chaos if we choose or use the same models for each.

"I'm always outnumbered" Then go for a marauder army, take crom if you want, you can outnumber your enemy and still have the hittiest characters to win combats.

"My opponent outmanouevers me" Sounds like you need more mounted marauders and warhounds to me.

"I can't shoot" Then choose another army, get a hellcannon or some DOW. If you play Khorne then shame on you for your heresy.

"My army gets shot to hell" Take furies, use terrain, get into combat faster, screen with herds or hounds. True you will always take some losses but if you minimise them and half your army gets into combat you can still pull out a win.

I also disagree with the idea that mixing marks is the only competitive way to play. By choosing one god you maximise their benefits. Nurgle may be a poor mark for units but its a great mark for a character in a unit of marauders and a great mark for a character in a herd- also allows you to take nurgle minotaurs, the best unit of their kind in the game bar none. Tzeentch has the only viable chaos lord (staff) and means you can rule 3 phases- movement, magic and combat. Khorne (with hound screens) means you both shut down your opponents magic and rip through them even easier in combat, saving a lot of points, and immunity to psychology. Slaanesh has the best lore in the game- bar none (don't need chosen any more). Nurgle aside (for mortals) all the other marks are great as one god armies.

Finally army creep is a problem. Bretonnians, in my opinion, are overpowered for their cost. Still if they don't break on the charge they are lost but chaos will beat the crud out of their opponents every single turn until they break. They will have several lances of knights for every unit of knights you have but then you can have several units of warhounds/mounted marauders for the cost of a bretonnian lance and can thereby dictate movement. Dwarfs are getting near to overpowered but still handleable. Formerly overpowered armies (lizards and skaven) are much weaker in 7th edition.

As chaos you have SO MANY OPTIONS. Even Empire generals can't compare. You can mix marks, 3 armylists, 2 armybooks of magic items, fast or slow, numerous or few, magic or none or anti magic. Monsters or troops. Fear causing or psychology immune.

OK I'm going to rest now.
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