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| New High Elfs | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 28 2007, 08:18 PM (545 Views) | |
| Kormak | Sep 28 2007, 08:18 PM Post #1 |
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High Executioner of Khorne
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So what do you guys think of the rules that people claim to be in the new book? I dont know about you guys but i certainly find ASF abit of lame arse attempt the fix issues in the book, sure it isnt as bad on Spear elfs but what about the elite troops? I think my biggest worry is going to be swords masters! 2 strength 5 ws6 always striking first attacks each! my god! is this going to spawn more and more chariot hordes? I have to day it seems like GW is trying to push your average joe away from using balanced fun armies. I know i still have a love for my khorne warriors (more due to models and perhaps trying to cling onto a how my army was in 5th ed) but i have to say i am seeing less and less for them with every army book. Still the issue isnt just with chaos warriors, beast of chaos are going to have a tough time be it a minotaur army or beast herd base army, with little army and facing so many attacks i dont believe T 4 is going to help much :( I think another thing now is we will have less use for light cav, not only do with have to take the stand and shoot responce but then they get a bunch more attacks! how dealy are sea guard going to be! i think my next favorite thing is how in 2k how they get 6 special slots, is it 3 or 4 rares and only need to take two core? i noticed alot of elves players moaning how they cant do cav armies as they have no core? hasnt anyone considered two units of 10 archers and then 6 cav units backup RBT's I think chaos has been knocked from the mantel of toughest HTH army now :( Now bearing these well planned and thought out changes what do people think chaos will get, im guessing s & T 5 with 2 a each costing 10pts? what about you guys? |
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| Valtiel | Sep 28 2007, 09:30 PM Post #2 |
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The Chosen
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Well, they certainly needed some changes and I will gladly fight against a HE army but I am worried about certain things in the army. Sword Masters is one of them, I can't see how you can effectively kill them if you don't use magic missiles or shooting. Since we don't have much shooting we only have magic which doesn't seem like a very good alternative since HEs are hard to get spells through. I just don't hope people make armies of 6 units of Sword Masters... I'm also worried about Dragon Princes. They might even have 2 attacks each, and considering that they will have 2 S5 attacks on their charge will be pretty rough. Almost like our Knights of Khorne or chosen only these DP can be taken at a much cheaper price. some even guessed you might be able to take 6 units of 6 DP each for about 1000 points which sounds very bad for the opponent. Otherwise these cavalry don't really benefit from ASF rules. All other things sound average but the ASF might become of one the hated things amongst many players. The fact it counts when the HE have GW as well is bad imo. At least the rumors says so. Models with Great Weapon should just normally like those without GWs or just strike last like normally. What we can use against them will probably be Chariots. I guess if we could get a lot of magic missiles through it would be great but I doubt that many would even get through. I don't think I'll use anything but Knights against a HE army now though mostly because Warriors will probably not do it that good anymore (even though all HE guys seem to think they are the big meanies, damn couldn't it be nice if they got ASF?), Minotaurs will get slaughtered even against Spear Elves because of the lack of armour and then there will probably lay a dead Minotaur before they even get to strike. Beast men will probably not do well either, only if they manage to attack the enemies in the flank. The Dragon choice in under 2000 pts. game concerns me as well since I'm not sure how to deal with a Dragon. Those are my thoughts, it will be a challenge to play against it but I'm afraid it will be an almost all-knights army from my end. |
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| snyggejygge | Sep 29 2007, 07:19 PM Post #3 |
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High Zar of Khorne
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I am a bit more worried about them being able to field 2 or more dragons in just a normal 2000 pts game, sure always strike first on swordmasters will be deadly, but chariots can handle it, & for those playing w. magic, the magic missiles will help as well. But how do you handle 2 dragons? |
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| Kormak | Sep 30 2007, 12:50 AM Post #4 |
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High Executioner of Khorne
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Magic missiles? arnt you forgetting drain magic with accumulates! magic missiles? your joking trying that at +6 to your casting value! sure we have chariots that can deal with sword masters, the problem is however our core chariots are rather over priced and im sure if hes fielding 2/3 RBT's he can take them out rather quickly, combine this with potent magic and what ever bound spells he/she has. So now we have the option for beast chariots, well, yeah its well and good but these will be special and arnt that hard to take out either. Our best option? I think our only hope is going to be charging with fear casuing guys to have them hitting on 6+. Dragons is going to be a whole different bull game sadly, its going to be hell for us khorne players, the sad thing is these things are going to fly around the board and we wont be able to touch them, spawn cant hold them in position that long, i guess i may have to do something i swore i never would and start taking DoW cannons in my list. I guess on the brightside we have the rune of the true beast atleast, so we can use that to take out maybe a hero on a dragon with a beast lord, personally i think chaos is pretty screwed by these changes (well it throws balanced fun armies out the window). I have been talking about this with a guy i know who collects high elfs and undead (well he bought them for cheap), he certainly isnt happy about the changes, i mean if i take a chariot horde of knight horde win or lose neither person is going to enjoy the game, if i take a infantry list neither person is going to enjoy the game (i wont enjoy get stomped on not matter how well i play and he wont enjoy not needing to think about what hes doing, we may as well start the game in close combat and see who rolls the best). |
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| The Inspector | Sep 30 2007, 01:39 AM Post #5 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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I think the mage-dragon is no better than a griffin stats-wise, so it's not really a second dragon in 2000 points. A terror-causing fire-breathing massive flying monster, sure, but no 'dragon' ;) |
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| Kormak | Sep 30 2007, 04:08 AM Post #6 |
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High Executioner of Khorne
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Well thats ok then so flying fire breathing terror causers that you cant really do much about, sounds good, why do i feel so screwed already :( |
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| Diosamblet | Oct 22 2007, 09:23 AM Post #7 |
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Slave
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Our gaming store received an advance copy and I played against the new list, twice. I used my slaanesh cavalry army. My opponent had 20 swordmasters and two lion chariots. His swordmasters died easily against my chosen knights with rapturous standard. I played against the dragon mage in our second game. I dispelled his sword of rhuin, and he failed all his rolls. I killed the mage with ease, then the dragon broke and was run down. I do feel it makes the game slightly less interesting, since now charging is a bit pointless. But elves still die in droves from shooting and magic, and tough, highly armored opponents such as our chaos knights have a decent chance. |
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| Kormak | Oct 22 2007, 05:45 PM Post #8 |
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High Executioner of Khorne
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well im glad you had some nice wins against them, we will just have to see when the book is properly out, im going to be playing the high elves for some battle reports in the watchmen (on warseer, well so im told atleast!) I think game is going to be against 2k of high elf characters and another a normal game, the game vs the characters should be pretty interesting. http://uk.games-workshop.com/highelv...ence-sheet.pdf high elf ref sheets, seems to confirm all the special rules and stats that are feared or atleast cause minor concern. |
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| snyggejygge | Oct 23 2007, 11:06 PM Post #9 |
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High Zar of Khorne
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Use plenty of chariots, they kill elves in droves. |
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| Kormak | Oct 24 2007, 12:12 AM Post #10 |
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High Executioner of Khorne
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Good idea, let me just reach into bottomless pocket of cash! the more i think about the more i think this is just a marketing ploy my GW to increase sales on not so used units (such as chariots). Still i dont think chariots are going to help much against two dragons (funny enough i dont think the chariots are going to be getting the charge), still i dont think that high elfs are going to have that many problems with chariots, im pretty sure thinks like RBTs firing single shoots are going to be able to deal with them or fast moving cavalry is still going to be able to get the charge and cause some real damage (before blows are struck we are already two down). The chariot horde i guess is always the option for those who enjoy spending half their salary on warhammer or get staff discount, i think however that other methods should be look at that involve using units we have (that and im bored, broke for a few days and have time to burn, i should really do some painting but cant be bothered!) Daemonic steeds actually seem like a viable option now, i think them slowing the unit actually makes them a prime target, combine this with fear and it actually gives us a ok chance they will be hitting on a 6+, combine this with the charge of another fast moving fear causer and we slightly bump up the odds ( i might actually have a use for flesh hounds again other than spirit hosts). Giants also come to mind when facing units like swordsmasters, sound silly at first, perhaps however this is one of the few units that is going to allow what i believe to be the standard 7 wide formation to strike, hey 3 less attacks is still 6 attacks. maths wise 9 attacks -> 6 hits -> 3 wounds in return most options are actually in our favor Yell and brawl - leadership 6 test here! sure a general may be near by but i have a feeling that hes going to be a wizard, on a dragon or both! jump up and down - with average dice rolls we are going to be doing alot of damage, this should win us the combat, maybe we fall over, damn, lets just hope thats more kills unless we are a mutant monstrosity then we have a fair chance its going to doing even more. pick up and.. not as but still this can be good, we have a few chances this will kill a few more guys, hell it might even do some damage to archers not to far away. swing with club - with a good roll we can still win the combat Worst comes to worst he dies and falls on the unit, cant complain either, that makes that will surly reduce the problem, the units are going to wide so at the right angle that unit is going to be losing alot of models. Exalted daemons I fell actually stand a good chance of ripping this unit, all you need is soul hunger, charge in, issue a challenge and score 4 wounds, pretty good odds with soul hunger, not amazing but still better than other options for much higher points, again this unit will have terror like the giant so it may even break them on the charge and run them down without a fight. Option im thinking off Khorne - soul hunger + armour of khorne -why, well im thinking with a 4+ save it gives him a far greater chance it surviving missile fire ( i know people who like to risk it). Slaanesh & Tzeentch - Soul hunger + diabolic splendor - well this guy atleast has the advantage or striking before the elves so less risk Nurgle - Stream of corruption + diabolic splendor - well here you go, we have out own cheap dragon, shame we cant use the stream more than once but this guy will certainly earn his points back against T3 low armour guys :) Characters also seem like a logical choice to use against the elite units that are going to spread wide with minimal static combat res, things like sword of striking come to mine, helm of many eyes, hell one thought that came to mind was a lone BSB, he actually has a greater chance than a normal character bit risky VPs wise. You might wonder why i say that, sure he has one less attack however he has his bsb which means his max combat res is exactly same just he cant score as many kills, its a idea, maybe not the greatest but hey im trying to come up with more than use chariots. Now i hate to say it but im no so sure on our knights odds anymore, i think against spearmen about its slightly better odds than pikemen but for those of use who have the pleasure of using frenzy well all know you can never bet on your knights going into the right unit, few archers shoots into your screen and light cav unit leading you towards the swordsmasters and bye bye knights. So other options, for the none khorne guys you have magic and rest you like it have the hellcannon. Well thats just my thoughts on the subject, i havent gone onto white lion chariots as reall thats easy enough, exalted with great weapon :) |
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| Tammil Augrimm | Oct 25 2007, 10:31 PM Post #11 |
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The Change Chosen
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So Swordmasters have 2 WS6 S5(S3 + GW) attacks? What about White Lions and Pheonix guard? |
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| Kormak | Oct 25 2007, 11:12 PM Post #12 |
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High Executioner of Khorne
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white lions are 1 attacks, strength 5 stubborn, hardly half the issue that swordmasters are, hell i actually think bloodletters i think most fear causing units will have a easy time here, with average combat potential maybe lose a minotaur, that cool, unit of 4 has either 4 or 14 attacks back, more than enough kill a rank or so, hell, auto break is break against stubborn, prolonged combats will be the issue. Phoenix guard are only strength 4 however the fear and wardsave is going to be a pain, the way i see it played is: swordmasters 14 guys in 7x2 (thats 15 ws6 s5 attacks..) phoenix guard & White lions 15- 20, 5 wide Which unit is going to cause you the most problems? swordmasters? hmm, funny enough i see them either having the manner that makes them immune to magic or balance banner, the balance banner then cancels out our friendly giants stubborn, ghrr! Phoenix guard guard i think is just going to be one of them static combat res units that is really a major pain in the arse |
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| snyggejygge | Oct 26 2007, 03:52 PM Post #13 |
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High Zar of Khorne
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I agree, the way I see the coming lists, it will probably be atleast 1 dragon ( the cheezy guys going for 2), a couple of Bolt Throwers, 2 units of Archers to fill out Core, some fast cavalry & lots of Swordmasters in a sort of MSU build. But imo as long as we think about what we charge & the opponent doesn´t use 2 Dragons, I think the elves are going to be just as easy to win over as they are now. I will however start to include a pair of Chariots in most of my lists I bring to tournaments, they´re a decent choice against many armies & will be a great unit vs Swordmasters, besides 170 Pts ain´t that much... |
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| Kormak | Oct 26 2007, 07:01 PM Post #14 |
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High Executioner of Khorne
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Well im starting to think we are going to see a few builds, i the the armies based around swordmasters is going to be backed up by seaguard and chariots, i actually not sure we will see so many dragon lists, i think the key is taking up two hero slots, thats actually leaves them very weak to magic (bar a one use item) The other will be more like you said i think snygg, still i actually cant wait for this release to come out, im buying that dragon and using it for a chaos dragom, i still have my old chaos dragon so perhaps i can combine them somehow. The lion chariots is another thing im looking forward to, im going to see if i can mail order those lions after that post in the painting forum i think im going to be making myself some new flesh hounds :) Anyways back to the topic, i still dont think chariots is the real answer, certainly not beast chariots, they simply lack the survivability, being only T4 and having a 4+ save i think even a RBT doing a volley could take it out in short order, personally i think teh giant is going to be the key, hell i think hes a damn good bet at taking out dragons! |
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