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| An effective list using the crap stuff?; Using the dross to make an army | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 1 2008, 06:04 PM (353 Views) | |
| kerill | Dec 1 2008, 06:04 PM Post #1 |
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Exalted Guardian
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A lot of the units in the army sadly are not what we would wish for, this list is an attempt to combine some of those elements into a decent list. This list assumes certain hellcannon queries will go our way. 2000 points Exalted Champion of Tzeentch, bsb, great weapon, shield, armour of morrslieb (or a non marked exalted with crown of conquest) 193 - 2+ save with 3+ ward, S7 attacks if needed, on foot for easier movement. Nurgle sorcerer, level 2, forbidden pupper, enchanted shield 190 Nurgle Sorcerer, level 2, book of secrets, power familiar 190 Nurgle sorcerer, level 2, rod of torment 185 10 marauders, slaanesh 50 10 marauders, musician 44 - backup units 13 warriors of slaanesh, FC: war banner, shields. Joined by bsb for 3*5 formation, enchanted shield sorcerer in here as well 273 5 warhounds 30 5 warhounds 30 7 Chosen, slaanesh, champion, standard: rapturous, shields, halberds 210 - along with the warriors this is an anvil 6 Chosen, slaanesh standard: wrath, halbers, shields 195 - magic support and flanker Hellcannon 205 Hellcannon 205 Deployment: Hellcannon on each flank, will move 3" and shoot each turn as the army advances. Will be tough as buggery to shift flank protection. Centre of the army will the warriors and rapturous standard chosen with the other chosen unit in between for flanking. The middle unit of chosen will have a unit of warhounds in front for any emergency redirecting needed. The marauder units will be behind the rapturous standard chosen and warriors respectively to guide the rear and so they can safely flee a charge from any insane deathstar units (Blood knights, bloodcrushers and the DE executioner deathstar if it gets near too intact). They will also allow a safe place for the characters in the front line to retreat to in case of a bloodthrister or star dragon lord, by putting the marauders flush against the unit even with a large target's line of sight they can;t be charged. The whole army will advance slowly trusting in the hellcannons and nigh unbreakable chosen and warriors to fend off any flank attacks. Between the hellcannons panic causing attacks and the nurgle sorcerers assassinating enemy characters you should be able to win any long range battles that ensue while giving few points to your opponent- all your troops have a 3+ save against shooting and hellcannon are only vulnerable to cannons. If your opponent decides to attack they are faced with unbreakable hellcannons, 70% unbreakable chosen or the warrior unit, all held together by the bsb who can drop back to the marauders if need be. As long as your line holds you then have hellcannon, warriors or chosen to flank your opponent with lots of tasty attacks and even more unbreakableness. The following battle of attrition will almost certainly be in the favour of chaos troops. Almost your entire army is immune to panic, fear and terror and you have two terror causers of your own and can cause a lot of panic tests with your hellcannon. This is an army that doesn't need to get into combat too fast since despite the number of units it's a VP denial army at heart. Your three nurgle sorcerers also have a decent chance of getting the regeneration spell to make things even more solid when combat arrives or against lots of war machines. The army could be improved perhaps by droppong the second nurgle sorcerer and the second chosen unit and going for a Tzeentch sorcerer lord on disk with sword of might, warrior familiar, golden eye for war machine and light cavalry hunting. Although you lose a unit and bound spells by this you gain a dispel die, more blasty spells and a good chance of pandemonium for swinging the magic battle firther in your favour. Alternatively you could swap the enchanted shield sorcerer and chosen for a Level 4 Nurgle mage with enchanted shield, bloodskull pendant, puppet and (maybe) diabolic splendour. Pop him in the warriors for 3 sweet S8 attacks when the bsb challenges or run him along with a hellcannon for a sweet -2 for those panic tests and -1 to hit the hellcannon with shooting. Anyway this is all theory, trying to find some use for these units that I will never otherwise take and fitting them in 2000 points. You could drop a hellcannon for 2 spawn if you wanted to spend points elsewhere but it would dilute the list slightly I think. Opinions? |
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| kerill | Dec 1 2008, 06:28 PM Post #2 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Dross list 2- The Forsaken Missile Sorcerer lord of Tzeentch, disk, puppet, sword of might, armour of morrslieb 400 Sorcerer of Tzeentch, disk, golden eye, warrior familiar, biting blade 210 - War machine hunters and general blasty magic users Sorcerer of Nurgle, level 2, book of secrets, power familiar, chaos steed - magic support 206 Exalred, BSB, raptuorous standard, flail, shield, steed. 5 MArauder Horsemen, flail, musician 81 5 MArauder Horsemen, flail, musician 81 5 MArauder Horsemen, flail, musician 81 18 Forsaken, 324 5 Chaos Knights, standard 220 5 chaos knights, standard 220 (you could swap one unit for 2 units of DOW heavy cavalry) Anyway, not a subtle list, the forbidden led by the exalted tear down centre field and try to smack the hard centre of your opponents army. The knights flank the forsaken but at a discreet distance behind. If the forbidden break through the enemy line, great. If they fail to break your opponent he will probably flank them. Since this unit is almost unbreakable and has substantial combat res and lots of attacks if you are flanked, great you will hold even if you lose and the next turn your knights flank the flankers whilst your light units and sorcerers hunt warmachines and light cavalry whilst blasting things about a bit. One trick pony list but there you go it uses forsaken :) An alternative to forsaken would be chaos hounds for a similar tactic but much cheaper, 19 chaos hounds led be the champion, fast enough to charge turn 2 and with massive flanks very hard to resist. The 210 points you save would come in handy as well :) A further alternative would be medium marauder cavalry (shields, l armour and spears) 14 with FC, marked slaanesh for safety. 264 points but a viable option I reckon with a 4+ save, M7 and lots of attacks on the charge. Not as unwieldy as the hounds but a lot safer. |
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| Neknoh | Dec 1 2008, 10:37 PM Post #3 |
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The Chosen
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6 or 7 Chosen I am afraid, will not ever be able to be used as anvil units, they are strong flankers and counter chargers, however, anvils, they are not. If you want Anvil chosen, big blocks are best, and for your Forsaken list, I would most deffinately look into a LOT more troops and drop a lot of the sorcerors, I threw a Forsaken list together in my list thread. I appreciate what you are trying to do here, but I think the lists in themselves might lack a bit too much in general cohesion of themselves to be effective in most any way. |
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| Tammil Augrimm | Dec 2 2008, 03:17 AM Post #4 |
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The Change Chosen
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2nd list is better, though not great. It at least has mobilitly and hitting power to reccomend it, though I REALLY don't care for forsaken(but I guess the point of this list is to get some use out of them)..... to expensive and too poorly armoured. Personally I prefer Ogres if I want M6 hard hitters... and it says that your forsaken are led by an exalted, but there is none in your list..... and they are hardly nearly unbreakable... with LD8 and a 5+ save, one good combo charge from the enemy(or charge from a heavy combat unit) will send them packing right fast... unless there is something I'm missing? The first list though is terrible. The only unit in your army that won't desintegrate upon being charged is your warriors and hellcannon. Your chosen and marauders will quite simply vanish under enemy numbers(infantry) or hitting power(heavy cav or monsters)..... speaking of which......Banners on units of 6-7 chosen? Are you MAD?! I understand that with all that magic and hellcannon you aren't planning to win your battles up close and personaly, but you'll need more hitting power than a single unit of warriors to back them up as hellcannons aren't really reliable weapons. Against any other shooty army(empire, dwarves, skaven, woodies) you're going to get shot to bits and then steamrollered by their close combat units. |
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| kerill | Dec 2 2008, 06:27 PM Post #5 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Sorry, second list has an exalted bsb with rapturous banner 9hence the almost unbreakable for the forsaken, hounds and horsemen, I'll add it in, it is paid for :) ) In the first list only one unit of chosen is an anvil- the one with the banner. T4 and 2+ save makes them very hard to destroy on the charge (harder to kill than most races heavy cavalry and heavy cavalry don't die that quickly) unless its blood knights or juggers. To run some numbers for example: 6 Inner circle knights, FC led by hero with lance: 10 attacks from knigts= 2.72 kills 7 attacks from horses= 0.2 kills So 3 kills on the charge. Chosen can hold and enemy cav can be flanked with hellcannon/ second chosen unit. First round striking back (assuming champion dies) 4 left, cause 0.59 wounds. Second round you have flank attack, strike first, opponent down to S4 you will win the combat though attrition. Similalrly, 6 dragon princes, FC with hero with halberd: 16 attacks from knights: 2.66 kills Horses: 0.19 kills Again less than 3 kills. Chosen kill 1.1 Next round flank and destroy. Against most things the chosen unit will hold better than the big warrior unit. It will not win combat unsupported but its a lot less points to hold the line as well. If charged by an infantry unit (e.g. 20 dwarf warriors with shields) you will lose combat for a while but the halberds will tell in the end. Firstround, dwarves get the charge, kill 0.4 chosen, 6 chosen attack back with 12 attacks: kill 3.55 dwarves, lose combat by 1 (0.4 kills, US, 3 ranks= 4.4 vs 3.55). Next round warriors strike first, 13 attacks 3.8 kills, dwarves kill 0.08 in return, draw or win to the chosen. Against 21 swordmasters, 7 wide (chosen use shields) Each turn elves kill 2.5, chosen kill 2.77. Chosen will die but you will be able to flank the elves next turn. All these assume no bonuses for the eye of the gods at the start as well. I agree it's counter intuitive in some ways but they really are tough enough to withstand an awful lot and armies with an insane combat unit to destroy them will be lacking points elsewhere and will have to weather an awful lot to be able to attack them and get past the diverting hounds. Elven armies with RBTs will be the biggest problem for this unit since all other artillery is better off pounding the warrior unit. The rapturous standard is what makes it possible since even if they lose by 6 they still have a 60-70% chance of holding. The reason for using chosen is because the only way that they can be better than the warriors is when the unit is cheaper overall, and 7 chosen is cheaper than 10 warriors. The EOTG is just a bonus. An alternative would be to use the 125 point stubborn standard and have units within 6" of it, again chosen are fairly points effective here, for holding troops even more so since for 170 points you get 7 with a champion and mark of slaanesh. In that build you could drop the hellcannon for warshrines since their T6, 4+ ward and 4+ save makes them ideal for halting a charge then flanking with chosen. Every unit within 6" of the standard would have a 92.3% chance of holding against any opponent that didn;t wipe them out, then you count on attrition and flanking. |
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| Tammil Augrimm | Dec 2 2008, 07:01 PM Post #6 |
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The Change Chosen
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Don't quite agree there..... Alot of those combat senarios result in your chosen losing combat by about 4(don't forget that you're giving away the outnumber bonus) in the initial round. With Ld8 that's testing on a 4+ the the addtions of double 3's, 4's, 5's and 6's. That's only a 10/36 chance of passing the test. Even with a re-roll that's pretty dicy(less than 50/50 in truth...). That's not a unit I would rely on to hold the line, and definately well short of almost unbreakable. The Slannesh standard is a nice little bit of extra insurance, but it's not something to be relied upon. |
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| kerill | Dec 2 2008, 08:59 PM Post #7 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Well my maths might be off but I think there are 16/36 combinations out of 36 for doubles or a single 1: Each double is a 1/36 possibility so 6 chances 1 on one dice with 2,3,4,5,6 on the other is 5 chances 2,3,4,5,6 with the second die a 1 is 5 chances The chance of not passing without re-roll is 55%, the chance of passing with a reroll would be 1- (.55*.55=.308 )=.70 so you should pass with re-roll 70% of the time. This also assumes you lost by at least 6, if you lose by 3 (e.g. against heavy cavalry) then you can also pass with 2,3 or 3,2 increasing the chance of passing to 50% and 75% with re-roll. Ah well these lists are more an exercise in theory trying to get a half decent list based on the useless units, they are never going to be "hard" lists, even by WOC standards, just hopefully somewhat competitive. |
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| Godless-Mimicry | Dec 3 2008, 05:09 AM Post #8 |
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No' 9
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Relying on mathhammer is not a very good plan though. |
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| kerill | Dec 3 2008, 10:55 AM Post #9 |
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Exalted Guardian
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You don't roll dice where you play godless? Whilst dice are by nature random you can still test for your chances in certain situations. Whilst positioning troops and using your units correctly is a large part of the game any plan involves rolling dice at some point. Whilst it might be nice if every win could be put down as due ro sheer playing skill in a game of incredible tactical difficulty, that game sadly is chess not warhammer. |
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| Godless-Mimicry | Dec 3 2008, 12:35 PM Post #10 |
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No' 9
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The reason its called probability is because its probable, not certain. In a game of dice, you can predict the most likely outcomes, but luck plays the biggest part of all. |
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