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2,500 Points of Khorny Goodness; Need help with character set up
Topic Started: Feb 22 2012, 04:39 AM (312 Views)
Metal_Lord
Warrior of the Chamber

Hi guys,

Really would appreciate some help with my character set up, not sure about the lack of a ward save against miscasts etc. Am planning on hiding him though, either behind a building or hill or behind my main line. Any ideas?

Also not sure about the second unit of marauders with the MoT, it doesn't feel right somehow, was going to have these guys protect a flank or use them as steadfast negaters, either of the two. I think 18 with either the <oK or MoS might be a better choice. What do you think?

Btw, this is everything that I have bar a few knights, so can't really change much model wise.

Level‭ ‬4‭ ‬Sorcerer Lord‭; ‬Lore of Heavens‭; ‬Necrotic Phylactery‭; ‬Infernal Puppet‭; ‬Dragonhelm; ‬325

Exalted Battle Standard Bearer‭; ‬Mark of Tzeentch‭; ‬Halberd‭; ‬Talisman of Preservation‭; ‬Favour of the Gods‭; ‬199‭

Exalted Hero‭; ‬Mark of Tzeentch‭; ‬Biting Blade‭; ‬Bronze Armour of Zhrakk‭; ‬Collar of Khorne‭; ‬Ironcurse Icon‭; ‬Shield‭; ‬Barded Chaos Steed‭; ‬191


17‎ ‏Chaos Warriors‭; ‬Full Command‭; ‬Halberds‭; ‬Shields‭; ‬Mark of Khorne‭; ‬Razor Standard‭; ‬399

18‎ ‏Chaos Warriors‭; ‬Full Command‭; ‬Halberds‭; ‬Shields‭; ‬Mark of Khorne‭; ‬Banner of Eternal Flame‭; ‬376

40‎ ‏Marauders‭; ‬Standard‭; ‬Musician‭; ‬Mark of Khorne‭; ‬Great Weapons‭; ‬242

28‎ ‏Marauders‭; ‬Full Command‭; ‬Mark of Tzeentch‭; ‬Light Armour‭; ‬Shields‭; ‬188‭

5‎ ‏Warhounds‭; ‬30

5‎ ‏Warhounds‭; ‬30

5‎ ‏Warhounds‭; ‬30

5‎ ‏Warhounds‭; ‬30

6‎ ‏Chaos Knights‭; ‬Full Command‭; ‬Mark of Tzeentch‭; ‬Banner of Rage‭; ‬345

Scyla Anfingrimm‭; ‬105


Thanks for any and all assistance :D
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R3do
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The Warptongue
Here is few things that bothers me.

1) Sorcerer Lord need ward save!! Give him atleast that 5+ ward so it will become 4+ if u dont wana change presevation to him. Allso u should give BSB atleast mundane shield for more armor against shooting.

2) I asume u gona put Exalted hero on horse to knight unit ? If so then i think Favor of the Gods is more usefull with him.

3)Why Scyla ?? It just waste of points. u should take it out and put some more warriors or buff ur Sorcerer Lord.

Otherwise looking good. That 28 marauder unit is good protection to Sorcerer so put him there and u dont need to hide him behind anything :), allso dont mind about miss cast so much. U can save most damage with puppet.
Edited by R3do, Feb 22 2012, 08:17 AM.
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Evil Hypnotist
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The Chosen
R3do
Feb 22 2012, 08:16 AM
3)Why Scyla ?? It just waste of points. u should take it out and put some more warriors or buff ur Sorcerer Lord.

I have always been pretty happy with Scyla when I have taken him, he is well worth 2 normal spawn.
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R3do
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The Warptongue
Evil Hypnotist
Feb 22 2012, 04:46 PM
R3do
Feb 22 2012, 08:16 AM
3)Why Scyla ?? It just waste of points. u should take it out and put some more warriors or buff ur Sorcerer Lord.

I have always been pretty happy with Scyla when I have taken him, he is well worth 2 normal spawn.
Then mine just have realy bad luck because he allways die before reach the enemy :D
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Harbinger
The Chosen
Lol, thats one of his points. The enemy wastes resources trying to kill a 105 point model thats T5 and four wounds instead of killing stuff that really matters. Although some people like the idea of running small bricks of warriors, i believe it would be better to run them in a single large unit, say like 30. This gives you steadfast in alot of combats and still a large number of attacks because you can run them 6 wide and still have 5 ranks. This can also free up some points to make your knight unit bigger. In fact, if you did that and still had the razor banner on the warriors you could make the knights a full unit of 10. :rock:
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R3do
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The Warptongue
Harbinger
Feb 23 2012, 11:59 PM
Lol, thats one of his points. The enemy wastes resources trying to kill a 105 point model thats T5 and four wounds instead of killing stuff that really matters. Although some people like the idea of running small bricks of warriors, i believe it would be better to run them in a single large unit, say like 30. This gives you steadfast in alot of combats and still a large number of attacks because you can run them 6 wide and still have 5 ranks. This can also free up some points to make your knight unit bigger. In fact, if you did that and still had the razor banner on the warriors you could make the knights a full unit of 10. :rock:
yeah 4 wounds and enemy hits usualy over 15 attacks on same turn and if u calculate possibilitys to hit, its about half (if str same) plus if str is same then his Scaly skin do no good at all. Plus he dont have any stable movements so u dont know how long it gona take to get him where u wana to.

Still i know what u mean and im not fighting about it, just saying my opinion to this and that mine spawns and scyla just happend to die too easily so 105p. from nothing is littlepit much.

Big blocks of warriors are good, but most of ppl (atleast from my country) like to play wiht ETC rules so no over 450p. units and so on. And still if u put 30man warrior unit to field, dont u think that its gona get lots of heavy cannon, catapult, magic and normal shooting against it. Sure u have other units to move while it get heavy fire but if u can squise it 15-20 it become normal threat.

Only thing i agree with u is that Knights are good when got full 10 man unit. They do alot damage and are certainly worth their point. ;)
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Metal_Lord
Warrior of the Chamber
Hi all,

Thank you for your feedback B)

Did have a game planned this Sunday but now I have to go and visit my mum instead, so game has been cancelled... Will arrange for another time, probably next Sunday!


The sorcerer lord has the lore of heavens so giving him the 5+ ward save item will only grant him a 5+ ward save. I do agree that he might benefit from some kind of ward save, though. He is immune to Death and characteristic tests, and practically immune to fire and metal spells thanks to the Dragonhelm, and if I do bunker him with the marauders then they should grant him plenty of protection against most other things.

The mounted hero is going with the Knights, that's why I gave him items to benefit the knights as well as himself. The collar grants him a 5+ ward save and MR 2, and also gives the knights a 4+ ward against magical damage. The Icon gives the whole unit a 5+ ward versus warmachines, and I am hopeful that a 1+ armour save is enough protection from the majority of other shooting.

He was going to have a lance, until I realised that chaos characters can't have lances... Erm, why is that?

Scyla, just because! I have actually used him in every game I've played, and while he has had moments of mediocrity he does make a useful distraction for a turn or two, assuming he does not get shot to itty bitty peices it's not unknown for him to kill a model or two if he does reach combat. I don't think he has ever made half his points back, lol. But he is useful as a distraction and is rather fun to use, he also fits my fluff :rock:

As much as I would love a huge unit of 30 Warriors, I have to agree with R3do about their effectiveness. Would rather have multiple threats dividing the enemy forces than one huge 'point sink' for the enemy to concentrate everything on. Two units gives me better tactical flexibility.

Would still like to try and make this list more competitive if possible, could try and squeeze in a few more knights but where could I get the points from?

If I were to boost this army up to 3,000 points (which I am planning to do in another month or so) what would you recommend I take? I am thinking a Hellcannon would be a good start, maybe a level 1 with a dispel scroll, and a small unit of crazed Ogres (I know they're a bit overcosted, but they can be good, I reckon). No more marauders, please, I can hardly bear to paint the ones I have. Marauder Horsemen could be an option, though.

Thanks again for your suggestions, will have another look and see if I can make any changes when I get home :D
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R3do
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The Warptongue
Quote:
 
If I were to boost this army up to 3,000 points (which I am planning to do in another month or so) what would you recommend I take? I am thinking a Hellcannon would be a good start, maybe a level 1 with a dispel scroll, and a small unit of crazed Ogres (I know they're a bit overcosted, but they can be good, I reckon). No more marauders, please, I can hardly bear to paint the ones I have. Marauder Horsemen could be an option, though.


If u gona keep about same list, then recomend few of these: more knights, chariot, hellcannon, more warriors, chosen unit with shrine, trolls, or if u realy wana ogres (i like to use them too :) ) u need 6 of them. Thats how they have some survivaly ablitys in close combat against hard units.


If u need more magic then maybe swap some items from other hero and give book of secrets. Realy good and with it u can take dispel scroll and dump him to warrior unit as fireball spammer (usual choise for me)
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Harbinger
The Chosen
R3do,

In reply to your concern about the warriors.

This is an example of a unit i fielded in a 2500 5 round tourny.

30 warriors with MoN, shield, halberds, full command, banner of rage=605

In the unit i had Festus and a BSB. Festus keeps them from overpursuing a huge distance out of formation so its harder for my enemy to capitalize on a flank charge, although even if the get flanked, they still throw around 12 S5 attacks at the enemy, which is usually enough for to drop them to less ranks then me so i can test on Steadfast if the manage to beat and then reform facing them. Granted it makes it to where its hard fr the unit to catch enemies that flee, but thats why you have chaser units to run them down. This unit was only destroyed once during the entire tournement, and that was by a hoard of pink horrors with 3 heralds in the unit casting mindrazor on them and it was still a close fight.
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Harbinger
The Chosen
My concern with running warriors units in small bricks is that, even in low numbers, these guys are not cheap by any stretch of the imagination. Heck, just 18 warriors with halberds and MoK is 318 pts. Yes my unit is expensive and can be out manuevered, but there aren't alot of things i fear getting charged by. In fact, with the way i run my magic, then most people are only going to get 1 round of uphand combat on me before i start using shadow to swing combats in my favor greatly. And yes, we do get hit by cannons and stone throwers and everyone who has a gun, which if it uses BS, they are taking a -1 to shoot me along with any other negatives and my knights are left untouched to smash into their gun lines. I've played that build for about a year now and so far the only person to beat the unit in my local area is super slann with massive brick of temple guard. Heck, if you fighting anyone like empire or any flavor of elves(exception of some of there special unit infantry) i love getting charged in the front and one or both flanks, typically means more combat res for me and more units fleeing from me.

On another related note to warriors, the sheer fact that your oppenent watches you place a block of 30 warriors across from his battle line typically throws their strategy into chaos. I find most people don't know how to respond, and those who do typically know its still an uphill battle against them.
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R3do
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The Warptongue
Harbinger
Feb 27 2012, 01:57 AM
My concern with running warriors units in small bricks is that, even in low numbers, these guys are not cheap by any stretch of the imagination. Heck, just 18 warriors with halberds and MoK is 318 pts. Yes my unit is expensive and can be out manuevered, but there aren't alot of things i fear getting charged by. In fact, with the way i run my magic, then most people are only going to get 1 round of uphand combat on me before i start using shadow to swing combats in my favor greatly. And yes, we do get hit by cannons and stone throwers and everyone who has a gun, which if it uses BS, they are taking a -1 to shoot me along with any other negatives and my knights are left untouched to smash into their gun lines. I've played that build for about a year now and so far the only person to beat the unit in my local area is super slann with massive brick of temple guard. Heck, if you fighting anyone like empire or any flavor of elves(exception of some of there special unit infantry) i love getting charged in the front and one or both flanks, typically means more combat res for me and more units fleeing from me.

On another related note to warriors, the sheer fact that your oppenent watches you place a block of 30 warriors across from his battle line typically throws their strategy into chaos. I find most people don't know how to respond, and those who do typically know its still an uphill battle against them.
I hope u understand that 30 warriors is good but allso very cheese unit. Ofc if need to win tournament i whould pick most annoying unit and very hard to slay. I whould put 75 chosens in same unit if i can and if i realy needed to win something.

But most ppl still like to play this game with fun. Sure if u get ur fun with indestructible unit to march and kill all, sure u can do that. But some ppl like to play "fairly" and do not bring big indestructible units in games. Allso some ppl play with ETC rule: no unit over 450p./40model, that will allso make game good and balanced.

Im not marking u or anything bad, i just think u are trying to do that. Forgive me if im wrong. Ofc u can bring ur mind to share but no need to mark other ppl comments with bold examples like that warrior unit of ur.

If have no bad experience with small units of warriors myself, maybe thats why i dont think big unit is needed. I have slain many hard units with one block of 18-21 warriors (maybe bsb or other hero in that unit). And i have fought against empire and many players with all elfs and lizardmens, I actually have Welfs, Helfs and lizards armys of my own and i dont need big units to slay them.

But u play ur style and i play mine and i realy dont want to fight about it.

Sorry Metal_Lord from this message in ur Topic, i hope u understand what im trying to say here and have no reasons to fight about anything :)
Edited by R3do, Feb 27 2012, 02:50 AM.
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Harbinger
The Chosen
^_^ Oh dude its cool, please don't get the idea that I'm preaching the "build the Indestructible unit" verse. I play to have fun too, and i have played with many small units before and it can be a blast. My assumption was that this was a tourney list. Personally i hate people that take the uber huge brick of chosen with FoG and lots of war shrines. Lol, and trust me, the unit is far from unkillable. Its just when i imagine warriors, i imagine them as implaceble. The chosen in my opion are over priced for what they do and don't even get a LD bump, so the break like regular warriors if you wiff your round of combat. For the longest time i would field 2 medium bricks of warriors and fill the list in useful characters and stuff to augment the warriors. My apologies if i offended anyone. I just learned to appreciate my warriors in a different way because when i started this army back in 2000, i didn't even own a marauder to 2010. I learned through many trial and error games how to win with a variety of warrior lists. it's just IMO that there are more and more units that can make short work of warriors in small units. Plus after someone plays against warriors a few times, they learn that those handful of warriors tend to be worth more points then that scary looking horde of marauders ;)
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Harbinger
The Chosen
Anyway, back to Metal_lord's original post.

If you wanted to free up some points for the knights, you could in theory drop the second small units of marauders and put the knights at a ful ten, or you could drop scyla and put the unit up to 8 and keep the bunker unit for the Lv4.

In regards to the Lv4, i would seriously consider taking shadow over heavens. Heavens has some fun spells, but a Lv4 shadow caster can make your marauders so much more effective in melee. You can reduce the enemies strength so its harder for him to kill them, keeping more guys in the fight longer and the better odds of you keeping you frenzy and you can reduce the enemies weapon skill to make it easier for the maruaders to hit them. Hitting someone on 3's versus 4's can make a HUGE difference.
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R3do
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The Warptongue
Harbinger
Feb 27 2012, 11:40 PM
^_^ Oh dude its cool, please don't get the idea that I'm preaching the "build the Indestructible unit" verse. I play to have fun too, and i have played with many small units before and it can be a blast. My assumption was that this was a tourney list. Personally i hate people that take the uber huge brick of chosen with FoG and lots of war shrines. Lol, and trust me, the unit is far from unkillable. Its just when i imagine warriors, i imagine them as implaceble. The chosen in my opion are over priced for what they do and don't even get a LD bump, so the break like regular warriors if you wiff your round of combat. For the longest time i would field 2 medium bricks of warriors and fill the list in useful characters and stuff to augment the warriors. My apologies if i offended anyone. I just learned to appreciate my warriors in a different way because when i started this army back in 2000, i didn't even own a marauder to 2010. I learned through many trial and error games how to win with a variety of warrior lists. it's just IMO that there are more and more units that can make short work of warriors in small units. Plus after someone plays against warriors a few times, they learn that those handful of warriors tend to be worth more points then that scary looking horde of marauders ;)
Ok im glad we are cool :)

But yes to his list.

I agree u with shadow. I allways put one shadow mage to list if i got marauders. Thats how 40 GW marauders or even 20 Tzeentch are realy good killers.

Allso if u aren't bored with Tzeentch, then 4lvl Tzeentch with disc can do inough damage by himself allso (specialy with gateway). He can get behind enemy lines so fast and kill single unit with that mighty spell :)
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Metal_Lord
Warrior of the Chamber
R3do
Feb 27 2012, 02:46 AM

Sorry Metal_Lord from this message in ur Topic, i hope u understand what im trying to say here and have no reasons to fight about anything :)
Quite alright, R3do ;)

This is in no way a tournament army, just one for a few casual games with a freind!

I know Shadow is good as I use this lore quite a bit with my other army. I have heard great things about the lore of Heavens and I want to try it out and see if it will suit my play style. Plus, I think it fits into my theme better than any of the other lores. If it isn't as successful as I hope I may give Shadow a try!

Scyla stays :)

I could drop the bunker unit but where would I put my sorceror then? Originally I had intended to run him solo and have him hide, but I think this isn't the best way to use him and I have kinda warmed to the idea of placing him in a bunker unit. Instead, might it be an option to reduce their numbers a bit? Say 19 or 24?

Might it be better to swap the Razor Banner for something cheaper? They're already pretty choppy and it could free up some points for use elsewhere.

Edited by Metal_Lord, Feb 28 2012, 06:27 AM.
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