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| Shaggoths vs. Giants | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 20 2009, 10:31 PM (2,129 Views) | |
| TAG | Nov 20 2009, 10:31 PM Post #1 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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So, I'm looking at maybe including a big monster in my list as I grow past the 1000 point mark. Something nasty to mash things up good and fight other big nasties. May not use it all the time, since it's fighting with the Warshrine and the Hellcannon for the spot, both sweet choices. By the looks, our two big monsters are the Dragon Ogre Shaggoth and the Chaos Giant. Not really going for a dragon because I don't want to spend the points on the rider. Ditto on the Manticore. Personally, I like the look of the Dragon ogre Shaggoth much more. TBH, I'll eventually get this model just to paint and stick on my desk, probably. But that's not the matter at hand. Shaggoth: Pros: Great Weapon makes him Strength 8. Scaly Skin and Light Armor gives him a 4+ Armour save Immune to Lightning and can gain Frenzy Cons: More expensive Giant: Pros: Interesting attack options Can be marked for mild customization Stubborn and Leadership 10 Cons: No save whatsoever Same: Tough 5, 6 wounds ITP, Large Target, Terror So, I want to hear your experiences, opinions and suggestions. Oh, and why not? Which model do you think looks better? |
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| Avian | Nov 20 2009, 11:05 PM Post #2 |
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The Chosen
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I think the problem for me is that the Shaggot just plain isn't very fun. Sure, he can beat up small units of cavalry and has a decent chance of running them down, but that's also all he can do. Apart from the fact that he dies quickly against shooting (which the Shaggoth also does, 4+ save or not), a Giant is usable against nearly everything, especially with the Mark of Slaanesh. If the Shaggoth had any sort of unique special rule at all, I'd like him a lot more. Some sort of trample attack (impact hits), for example, or a lesser form of Kholek's lightning would have been nice. A unit costing nearly 300 pts that only has 5 attacks just isn't very interesting when that is all he does. |
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| InsideReticle | Nov 21 2009, 01:55 AM Post #3 |
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The Chosen
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On the other hand, if all monsters were in the same power to price range as the shaggoth, the game would probably be a lot more balanced since you couldn't just slam your monsters into the front of whatever unit tickled your fancy. Also the shaggoth just looks cool. |
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| Kraytirous | Nov 21 2009, 04:35 AM Post #4 |
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Exalted Guardian
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As was previously said, the Shaggoth can't dish out the very particular things a giant can. Also, a Giant is stubborn 10. A shaggoth isn't even Ld 10, let alone stubborn. Thus the giant stays in combat longer. |
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| Eldritch | Nov 21 2009, 07:07 AM Post #5 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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Don't use either, they're obsolete and overcosted. Both can and eventually be shot out early or beaten by unit of Slaves, Nightgoblins, Zombies etc. WoC do not need support in combat - we've got great Special slots. What we need is antidote for fast flanking large targets - Dragons, Popemobiles, Hydras, Steamtanks etc. Want rare, use Hellcannons or DOW Cannons, they're cheaper and work better. |
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| Krakanrock | Nov 21 2009, 07:53 AM Post #6 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Well, seeing as this thread is about which of the TWO and asks nothing about the Hellcannon... I'd go for the giant. Yeah, the shaggoth looks reall groovy and all, but it has none of the staying power that the giant has. Both monsters are going to have every piece of artillary pointed at them from turn 1 so the who can outlast the shooting phase is a rather pointless argument as most artillery is going to ignore the shaggoth's AS and do damage to both just as easily. As has been pointed out, the giant is stubborn on Ld 10. You may not win combat, but there's a much better chance of him sticking it out if he's outnumbered. Plus the MoS makes it even better. Granted it won't do much for you if the giant goes up against, umm...pretty much anything else w/ ASF, but against the majority of units out there, he'll get his attacks in first. |
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| nightsrage | Nov 21 2009, 08:44 AM Post #7 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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If your army is all cav I say shaggy. IMO the shaggoth is to calvery what the chariot is to infantry in its synergy. I love 2 chariots supporting my big block of chaos warriors. I love the "idea" of a shaggoth along knights or dragon ogres crushing enemies. Also imo the shaggoth spells flank charge all the way, if you can not get in in the enemies flankes then its not being used to its full potential. Shaggoth is the fastest(most mobile due to monster movment, excluding dragons) rank defying unit we have. On another note WoC can handle most armies head on ... once we get into combat so this also makes the need of that flank not as important. |
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| kyuzo | Nov 21 2009, 10:38 AM Post #8 |
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Unregistered
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Ignore this guy. WoC DO need help in combat and you go on the very next sentence in saying this exactly. We have very little in terms of taking out dragons, hydras, etc..... which is exactly what a giant is for(magic also). All good players will have at least 2 ways to deal with anything. Hellcannons are pretty damn mediocre just learn how to position and use a giant correctly and you wont have any problems. |
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| adrift | Nov 25 2009, 04:42 AM Post #9 |
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The Chosen
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The downside to the MOS giant is...nothing compared to the shaggoth really, but then that is what EVERYONE brings. So in favor of the shaggoth is really just uniqueness and fluff. And the fact it IS one of the best looking models in the game (bar kholek himself from MPG). People will respect you for bringing a shaggoth. Or...think you are an idiot. lol (Okay, he CAN get Str8, which busts chariots, but with Str 6 already, I would rather have the extra attack 80% of the time! 6 attacks starts to suck less...) I agree that the shaggoth needs just one special rule to make it MUCH more appealing. As it stands, it is just a really expensive missile magnet. Impact hits would seem appropriate and be quite cool. |
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| Jäerns Förblud | Nov 25 2009, 06:09 AM Post #10 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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I've never used a Shaggoth, but I have my Giant. It gets shot a lot, but even then he's useful, sure, he'll die, but that keeps other stuff from doing so. And if he doesn't he can give you some nice shoves towards victory. I agree on the Shaggoth rules being too bland, it's fitting (and needed gamewise) for him to have something hitty added. I though of something like each hit would be D2 hits, because he swings his axe through ranks and is thus bound to hit a lot. He'd get between 0 and 10 hits that way, and about 2 hits more then he does now on average. That would not really be overpowered in my opinion. As an alternative impact hits would be nice, being huge as he is he'd easily trample his foes. |
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| Khaarg the Immaculate | Nov 25 2009, 07:14 AM Post #11 |
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Slave
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Does the Shaggoth 'improve' at all when used in pairs? |
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| InsideReticle | Nov 25 2009, 08:08 AM Post #12 |
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The Chosen
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Well considering you're paying 530 points for 10 S8/12 S6 attacks, I guess it's pretty good. 'Course you'd be getting twice as much mayhem with two giants. If I ran two shaggoths I would leave them behind my infantry lines to deal with any issues that might arise, considering they're very fast and maneuverable and hit really hard. I would also considering running them as a flanking unit for knights, since they are even more maneuverable than knights are. I do believe shaggoths can work; it'll just take practice. |
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| svennh | Dec 15 2009, 05:58 PM Post #13 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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I'll prefer a giant over a shaggot. Just because I'm a Slaanesh player and so I can give my giant "always strike first". Its true that the giant is a missile magnet but so is the shaggot and as already been told, if the giant takes the missiles then my inf will live longer. |
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| eyescrossed | Dec 20 2009, 03:25 PM Post #14 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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With no intention to derail the thread in any possible way, how good is Kholek? He looks like he's a lot better than a standard Shaggoth anyway, even though he costs more than double. |
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| Kraytirous | Dec 20 2009, 10:16 PM Post #15 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Kholek is a monster, I've seen him used many times by a friend of mine and he is terrifying. You will most likely not kill this monster of a Shaggoth unless you point every available cannon/bolt thrower at him. I am also interested in using a Shaggoth, it seems like an interesting beast. But at the moment, my Giant is the only monster on hand, so he'll have to do. |
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