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2000 points list, feedback welcome
Topic Started: Jun 9 2010, 03:13 AM (435 Views)
Bitterman
The Chosen
So this is the first list I've written since re-imagining my army (long story, but basically I first built it when we could ally with Beasts and Daemons; now those options are gone, my original plans are all useless, and attempting to stick to them for reasons of fluff just led to a series of shameful defeats). I've already gone through several iterations on paper, and this is what I've come up with, but I have my doubts about it and would welcome feedback.

One requirement for my army is that I do not intend to drop below two wizards. For years I played with only one and got tired of getting out-magicked Every. Single. Game. Our gaming group doesn't exactly max out on magic as such, no-one ever takes 12+ power dice or anything silly like that and I have no wish to do that myself, but magic does play a major role in our games and I need two wizards just to keep up.

I'm also slightly restricted by models in that one of the units of CWs clearly has the MoN, and the CKs clearly have the MoK; I know that technically I could just say they happen to have green armour and bad skin (or whatever) but that's not how I roll (...baby), I prefer to keep it WYSIWYG as far as possible, so I'll keep those marks as they are.

Anyway - the list:

Exalted Hero carrying the Battle Standard, which is the Banner of Wrath. Total 180.
14 Chaos Warriors with Shields, Musician, Champion, Standard Bearer and with the Mark of Nurgle. Total 284.

Sorcerer acting as the General, Level 2 Death Magic, with the Rod of Torment. Total 165.
14 Chaos Warriors with Shields, Musician, Champion, and Standard Bearer. Total 254.

Sorcerer, Level 2 Death Magic, with the Infernal Puppet. Total 155.
14 Chaos Warriors with Shields, Musician, Champion, and Standard Bearer. Total 254.

5 Chaos Knights with Lances, Musician, Champion, and Standard Bearer carrying the Banner of Rage. Total 310.

5 Chaos Warhounds. Total 30.

5 Chaos Warhounds. Total 30.

Chaos Warshrine. Total 130.

Hellcannon. Total 205.

Grand Total 1997.

Recently (after reading advice to others on this forum) I've wondered if I should downgrade the Banner of Rage to MoK, drop the CW Champions, and take Halberds for all the CWs as well. Still thinking about that - I like taking full command including champions for combat-purposed infantry units.

So the idea is, the three infantry blocks, warshrine, and hellcannon (as necessary, when it's not shooting) will advance implacably, all the while dishing out pain from magic and in particular the bound items. The warhounds will screen the advance, while the knights will munch through anything that tries to get too clever. When the infantry block finally gets stuck in (even if it gets charged, as seems likely) it should be plenty strong enough to dish out some serious pain. I can imagine this sometimes working quite well.

However I can also imagine that other times, the hounds will get shot on turn one, the knights led astray by fast cavalry, and the warriors march-blocked, shot at, flanked, and crushed. Under those circumstances magic is about the one thing that would still have a chance of being effective. I want to take more warhounds, and maybe some marauders, but I don't want to drop anything! Something's obviously going to have to give; I've been toying with the idea of swapping out a CW unit for something else, but that seems like it would really weaken my battle line. So... suggestions please? I'll take anything on board - short of "scrap everything and start over". ;)
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BurnArt the Ravenbane
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the Warsmith
First of all, remove the point values from your post, it violates the rules.

About the list - you need Marauder Horsemen, preferrably Slaaneshi. At least two units. They and the Knights are the most important units in Chaos armies.

Drop the champions. Seriously, 12/20 points for jst one additinal attack is silly, and champions have to issue challenges and tend to die at the hands of some beefed out hero, granting your enemy addional overkill combat results points.

On your Knights, you don't want lances. S5 all the time is better than one round of S6. That's generaly the main rule of Chaos Knights tactics.

Mark your Sorcerers. Prefferably Tzeentch, alternatively Nurgle. Chaos magic is genealy better than basic Lores.

Moar Warhounds! :)

That's about it for now, maybe I'll think of something later.
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Bitterman
The Chosen
Quote:
 
First of all, remove the point values from your post, it violates the rules.


Done, though I'd be less likely to violate the rules if there was some way of knowing what they were - no sticky post about such rules in this subforum...? I even looked specifically for just that!

Quote:
 
Drop the champions. Seriously, 12/20 points for jst one additinal attack is silly, and champions have to issue challenges and tend to die at the hands of some beefed out hero, granting your enemy addional overkill combat results points.


I'd forgotten that they have to issue challenges. Still, given that all three of my warriors units have characters attached - if someone has to die in a challenge isn't it better that it's the champion than the character, or indeed several R&F? Nevertheless as I said I was already considering this in order to take halberds instead, so, it seems likely I probably will make this change.

Quote:
 
Moar Warhounds! :)


I want them, believe me I do! But the points, where do I find the points!? (Same for MoT on the sorcerers, it'd be nice, but what do I drop?)

I could drop the lances from the CKs to take a unit of hounds but if I'm going to take halberds for my CWs anyway I'll have plenty of S5 attacks on the board as it is; it'd surely be nice to keep the S6 for that really-hard-to-kill stuff? S5 leaves me at risk of bouncing off Empire Knights (1+ save is still 3+) or so it seems to me.

Quote:
 
That's about it for now, maybe I'll think of something later.


Thanks for your advice!
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BurnArt the Ravenbane
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the Warsmith
I'd drop one unit of Warriors. Two units of 15 is already a hard anvil. There are your points.

It is not better for a champion to die in challange because it gives your opponent overkill points, +1 for each wound caused in challange beyound the one that kills the champion, to a maximum of 5. That means a lord could get 4CR just for killing your champion. Worth spending 12pts? Also, Chaos cc characters are usually the ones killing in challenge, not dying. Better to face 'em with exalted, and even sorcerers if given a magic sword of some kind.

As for the lances, drop them, believe me. It often happens that you charge and then roll insane number of 1s and 2s. Talking about bouncing? Try killing any cavalry with s4 attacks. Believe me friend, lances suc.k. And you save points!
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Ghost
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Nobody of Ghost
Just a few things, mostly reinforcing what BurnArt has said:

Drop:
Champions
A unit of warriors
Lances on CK
Banner of Rage on CK

Get:
Hounds (your list is slow - and you also need blockers for your knights)
MoK on CK
MoK and Jugg for the BSB - believe me he will be of much more use like this. That killing power will be madddd
Marauder Horsemen w MoS

A few things to think about:
Death magic - whilst effective - IMO can be totally outstripped by Tzeentch magic so I would recommend that. It might even be worth dropping a few points to give one guy a disc to make him really manoeuvrable

You say that your club is pretty magic heavy... WHERE ARE THE DISPEL SCROLLS!? ARGH!!!11!!!

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Bitterman
The Chosen
Quote:
 
I'd drop one unit of Warriors. Two units of 15 is already a hard anvil. There are your points.


Fair point. Should I put a Sorcerer in the same unit as the BSB, then? Basically (for reasons already discussed) I want two Sorcerers and a BSB, which means I need three reasonably survivable units to put them in... I don't really want a Sorcerer joining a unit of 5 Marauder Horsemen for example. Is there a better idea? (Actually, Ghost suggested a MoT Sorcerer on a Disc. That's an option).

Quote:
 
It is not better for a champion to die in challange because it gives your opponent overkill points... That means a lord could get 4CR just for killing your champion. Worth spending 12pts?


Surely yes. If he's not killing my Champion plus four Overkill, he's killing 5 R&F instead - same CR but I get fewer attacks on his R&F. I had thought this concept was generally accepted? It seems to be on other boards.

Granted, our army is pretty hard so we're "usually doing the killing" but not always, especially as this list is infantry heavy so my opponent will often be the one charging especially in the early game, therefore picking the fight. It's only really in the late game that I'll be able to choose who my anvil are going to fight.

Quote:
 
Drop:
...
Get:
...


Some good ideas there, thanks for that. I'll have a think and get my pencil out...

Quote:
 
You say that your club is pretty magic heavy... WHERE ARE THE DISPEL SCROLLS!? ARGH!!!11!!!


Hehehe, I was wondering when someone was going to notice that! :P What can I say... the Rod of Torment (as a bound item) is key to the strength of my own magic offense, and the Infernal Puppet is too good both offensively and defensively not to take it. So I took those and ran out of points for scrolls! Despite the inherent risks, I plan to run with this list for the first game or two, see how it gets on - if I can force the opponent to worry more about what I'm doing to him, then maybe he'll be the one spending points on scrolls and I won't have to. Or maybe it won't work and I'll need to drop the Puppet and take a scroll or two instead. I absolutely recognise the risk involved and you're absolutely right to ask the question - for now, indulge me... ;)

Again, many thanks for your suggestions. Feel free to offer more, in the meantime I'm going to mull this over and see what I can come up with, then come back with an updated list.
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Darth Urbrambus
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The Chosen
Hi there

I usually take a unit of naked Khorne Knights. No SB, no musician (coz if you need one for your knights, you're screwed already). With those points, you could take 2 units of Hounds and still have some left. Or maybe a unit of Slaanesh Horsemen (but then you'd have to free up a few points extra to get them).

No champions. My gaming group tends to accept my Hero's challenges with their champion. They don't realise that our regular warriors/knights are practically as hard to kill as our characters (e.g. a CK versus a Hero on Jugg). So they offer me free overkill while they get stuck against my common soldiers.

About your magic, if I'm not mistaken you have 6PD and 2 MM. But with your mages as they are, you will only get Dark Hand of Death off. The next one requires a casting value of 8 to 9 to 10. Statistically, you will roll 3's or 4's which is cutting it close.

Let's say you change the set-up to a lvl 2 death mage and give him the book of secrets. You get 2 basic spells, easily 'castable' with 2 dice. Then you have points left for a scroll. You can even drop his level because the Book gives you an extra PD.

And if you drop a lvl on the other mage, you can still get your basic spell off and free some points for a unit of Hounds (or those extra points for a unit of horsemen).

Yes, you have less PD, but you can now cast 3 spells successfully, instead of just 2.

And I'm not too fond of the warshrine either. Maybe a chariot or some Horsemen?

Cheers!
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Bitterman
The Chosen
Sorry to bang on about this one, but I'm just trying to understand the perceived wisdom of the board:

Quote:
 
No champions. My gaming group tends to accept my Hero's challenges with their champion. They don't realise that our regular warriors/knights are practically as hard to kill as our characters (e.g. a CK versus a Hero on Jugg). So they offer me free overkill while they get stuck against my common soldiers.


The overkill isn't "free". If the champion didn't accept the challenge, you'd have killed his R&F instead. So you'd have scored exactly the same CR, but he'd have had less attacks back (which, granted, may not do much, depending on the units involved... Goblins may not kill Chaos Warriors very easily, but Black Guard might), be more likely to give you the outnumbering bonus, and more likely to lose a rank bonus next turn (obviously won't matter this turn). Plus overkill is limited to +5, though I grant it's rare that that you'll hit that limit!

So by accepting with his Champion, he is never doing any worse, and will often do better out of it.

The only time I can think this wouldn't apply is when he accepts with a champion instead of a character also in the unit, trying to keep the character alive and hoping the character kills more of your R&F than you get in overkill. Under those circumstances, what you say makes more sense because after all even the character will struggle to kill your R&F so that won't help - is that what you're getting at?

Even then, it only makes sense if the character is more survivable than the champion which is by no means assured, Elf characters are only ever T3 for example. And I don't remember the stats off the top of my head but I don't think a Chaos Sorcerer (or even a BSB) is any more survivable than a Chaos Warrior unless you spend the points on magic items to make him so. So wouldn't it still be better to take a champion so that if/when the unit comes up against a scary enemy character, the champion can be sacrificed to keep the sorcerer alive a turn or two longer? You give away overkill, but keep victory points if you can survive the combat - and I know which I'd rather have! I'd rather lose, say, 1 wound on a Champion plus 2 points in overkill, than 2 wounds on my Sorcerer plus 1 in overkill and lose the Sorcerer completely.

I'm sorry if this is OT or something that has been discussed to death on this board already, it just seems like completely the opposite advice to what I've read on other boards, so I'm genuinely intrigued as to why. I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing, I just want to understand what would seem to be something everyone agrees on... if there are already threads about it elsewhere, say so and I'll go looking.

Really interesting feedback on the magic, BTW. I must admit I've not checked the Lore of Death in detail to see the kinds of casting rolls I'll need... I assumed there would be spells worth casting one way or another, if I'm realistically unlikely to cast many spells even having taken two wizards, perhaps I need a rethink! (Though IME the bound items make a big difference. Two of them will probably draw out two DD before I even make any casting rolls myself, which hopefully will mean the spells I do cast aren't very likely to be dispelled, I might only get to cast one spell per wizard per turn instead of two, but using three dice on each means one will probably get through). Thanks for bringing that to my attention though, I hadn't fully thought it through, it seems.
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BurnArt the Ravenbane
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the Warsmith
About challenges you are generaly right, but the idea is - is it worth 20 pts (in case of Knights and Dragon Ogres) or just a little less (everything else) to have just one more attack? Alse, playing Chaos you should be happy for an opportunity of a challenge and fight them with your Characters - Chaos Sorcerer is an equal to to Empire Hero in close combat! Exalted Champions are better warriors than most Lord level characters and I will not even mention Chaos Lords, but those are rarely used.

So you simply don't want your champion in a challenge. Therefore all he does is add one more attack. For at least 12pts, more often than not more.

Ppl sometimes us champions as bodyguards for Sorcerers - the champion issueas and/or accepts challenges so that your Sorcerer will not end up in combat with kitted out Hero. Maybe that works out, never tried as my Sorcerers are always on their own. Other than that, I really don't see a reason to waste points on champions.

About magic, you should seriously try to mark one of your Sorcerers Tzeentch and give gim a Disc. For 40pts you get a flying Sorcerer with one of the best basic spells in the game - easily cast with just one die, the Flickering Fire forces your enemy to waste some dice or risk up to 7 S7 hits.
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Bitterman
The Chosen
OK, here's what I've done:

- dropped all unit champions
- dropped the Knights' Lances and Musician
- dropped the unit of Warriors with the MoN
- swapped the Banner of Rage for the MoK
- put one of the Sorcerers on a Disc with MoT
- taken Halberds for the CWs
- taken another unit of Warhounds
- taken a unit of Marauder Horsemen with the MoS

This leaves me with the following:

Exalted Hero carrying the Battle Standard, which is the Banner of Wrath. Total 180.
14 Chaos Warriors with Shields, Halberds, Musician, and Standard Bearer. Total 256.

Sorcerer acting as the General, Level 2 Death (or possibly Fire?) Magic, with the Rod of Torment. Total 165.
14 Chaos Warriors with Shields, Halberds, Musician, and Standard Bearer. Total 256.

Sorcerer, Level 2, with the Mark of Tzeentch, riding a Disc of Tzeentch, with the Infernal Puppet. Total 195.

5 Chaos Knights with the Mark of Khorne and Standard Bearer. Total 250.

5 Chaos Warhounds. Total 30.

5 Chaos Warhounds. Total 30.

5 Chaos Warhounds. Total 30.

5 Marauder Horsemen with Mark of Slaanesh, Javelins (or Spears?), and Musician. Total 86.

Chaos Warshrine. Total 130.

Hellcannon. Total 205.

...and 187 points still to spend. But what on?

Option 1: Exalted Hero with the Mark of Khorne on a Barded Chaos Steed, with the Collar of Khorne and Sword of Might. Total 186. To go with the Knights, they'd be even more fearsome with this guy around, and would get magic protection. Downside: it's another character, I'm not sure I like taking four characters, it feels wrong, I feel I'd be better off with more units (and what is out there that 5 CKs of K can't chew through without a character to help?).

Option 2: CW Champion; CW Champion; CK Champion; 5 Marauder Horsemen with MoS, Javelins, Musician; Warbanner for Sorcerer's CWs; MoN for BSB's CWs. Total 185. Gives me yet more Fast Cavalry and upgrades the units more-or-less to how they started, but means overall I've dropped a unit of Warriors for one of Warhounds and two of Horsemen... which may be tactically stronger, but weaker in brute force terms. Let's be honest - brute force is appealing, am I right...?

Option 3: drop Marauder Horsemen; take 5 Warhounds; 3 Dragon Ogres with Great Weapons; CW Champion for Sorcerer's unit. Total 187 exactly. This gives me another hard-hitting cavalry unit and more Warhounds - in fact I quite like this option - but I lose the Fast Cavalry.

Option 4: you tell me! Suggestions welcome, you've all been very helpful so far!
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Ghost
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Nobody of Ghost
Heres a few things to consider adding:

-Putting your BSB on a Jugg with MoK and flail. Its a fast and massive problem your opponent will have to deal with. If you've got your knights nearby, then you've more than likely got a devastating charge

just this bloke will pump out 5 ws7 s6 attacks and 2(3? I can't remember if frenzy affects mounts) ws5 s5 attacks from the jugg. Can you go wrong?

-Might i also be as bold to suggest; dropping the rod of torment and giving that bloke the infernal puppet. Then give your disc sorc the golden eye of tzeentch and the book of secrets. That way you get your death / fire spell and get an extra power dice as well as making him a very difficult to kill, fast moving sorcerer :D
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BurnArt the Ravenbane
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the Warsmith
Yea, the Juggernaut riding Khorne BSB is worthwile never a bad idea. I field him with just a mundane two handed weapon (please don't ask me why GW and not a Helberd, please...), shield, bsb and Fury of the Blood God. He's cheap, for a Chaos Character that is, and has 0+ armour save against shooting, 1+ in close combat if using his two handed weapon, 4+ ward against wounds caused by magic and Magic Resistance (2). Gotta love him.

I would also suggest Another unit of Marauder Horsemen, I never leave without at least 3, but I know ppl who use just one so dunno here, just basing on my experience. While I'm at it - neither javelins nor spears, you want throwing axes and/or flails.

Alternatively, a lvl 1 Nurgle scroll caddie for increased magic defence and an occasional Buboes sniping.

Your option three looks nice because of the hitting potential the army gets, but you end up extremely elite, with little means to fight any decently manouverable army, and with very little missile and magic protection. Such forces look terryfing with the prospect of close combat in mind, but often end up being thrown into dissaray and taken down from afar or surrounded.
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Bitterman
The Chosen
Thanks for your thoughts guys. The reason I'm reluctant to put the BSB on a Jugger with the Knights is twofold: one, I'd rather have the BSB accompanying the anvil Warrior units so they're better able to resist a charge. Two, the Banner of Wrath (which I very much want to keep) is wasted if he's in combat or facing in the wrong direction, the former of which is highly desirable for a combat unit, and the latter of which is possible due to the MoK if I make a mistake with my screening dogs or my opponent is very skilful. If I'm to have an Exalted Hero on a Jugger, I'd rather it be a whole new character, hence option 1 (who I could probably tweak to take a Jugger if required). Actually now that I think about it, there's also a third reason - I've already converted (not yet painted) my BSB on foot and I'd hate to waste the model! ^_^ I'm already going to be looking at how I can swap my Knights' lances for hand weapons with minimal damage to the model...

I'll have a bit of a think about the other suggestions and let you know what I come up with. Thanks again!


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Darth Urbrambus
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The Chosen
Quote:
 
The only time I can think this wouldn't apply is when he accepts with a champion instead of a character also in the unit, trying to keep the character alive and hoping the character kills more of your R&F than you get in overkill. Under those circumstances, what you say makes more sense because after all even the character will struggle to kill your R&F so that won't help - is that what you're getting at?


Damn, should have specified that there is in fact a character in the unit :s

Still, spending 20 points or so for 1 more attack is a lot and imo better spent elsewhere.

About your list, what if you dropped your exalted hero and replace him with another wizard? That, combined with 2 MM, would give you 8PD (without any magic items) and you'd have a scroll caddy and the puppet?

Cheers
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