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| Special Characters; - fair or fowl? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 22 2010, 08:00 AM (958 Views) | |
| Dracos | Aug 22 2010, 08:00 AM Post #1 |
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The Chosen
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I'm not a big fan of Special Characters. So don't take this as a power thing. Some books have Specials which are over the top, and some aren't worth the paper they're printed on. So what do we think of Chaos Specials? From Archaon to Wulfrik we have an interesting list of characters. Some like Archaon are just to pricey for my taste and others like Festus just aren't to my liking. Of person interest but my no means the only once I would like to hear discussed. I'm considering three and would add a fourth but cost a bit much and deserves a righteous model regardless. Vilitch - Lv4's are all the rage and I'm just wondering if twofer here is worth it? Point for point he adds up pretty good but you end up paying 50 points "Vessel of Chaos". Potential is great but a smart player should be able to negate this advantage by judicious use of his own dice. Still I like the ideal and he's no way as "effective" as say Teclis. Throgg - Converting River Trolls looks like it might be a blast and I've always wanted a "monster army". Gives a nice Ld to Warhounds also. Trolls, Dragon Ogres (if they ever release a new model) and Ogres Oh My! Wulfrik - Most interesting character in some ways. Who wants a Horde of Khorne Marauders w/ great weapons in their backfield? Heck with the Horde just a decent size with enough to make Steadfast possible. Considering what you find in most backfields, it ought to be a slamdunk. Special cheese or just chance for special army build/ |
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| Lord_Asylum | Aug 22 2010, 08:38 AM Post #2 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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Hey Dracos, Why'll searching the web for a bit of inspiration for my lists I found this Tactics article for warriors of chaos lords/heros and special characters in 8th ed: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php...45&postcount=71 I found it quite interesting |
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| Taureus | Aug 22 2010, 02:38 PM Post #3 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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With characters moving to the point of combat, Wulfrik hitting a mage bunker in the rear and forcing a challenge with a squishy caster...It's almost too good to pass up. Even better if the target is his "mark." My DE-player friend compares Throgg to a giant, 4 wounds with Monstrous regen being slightly better than 6 wounds with no save of any kind. |
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| Dracos | Aug 22 2010, 11:29 PM Post #4 |
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The Chosen
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Wow, I sooooo am not a fan of Warseer but I'll take a quick peek B) @Taureus - So does this make Wulfrik and/or Throgg cheese? After all only reason they can do this is because of the "Special" rules these Characters have, or do they just happen to give you an alternate way to play your Chaos army. After all there are plenty of armies with the ability to bring troops in like Wulfrik, and really the guy's no great shakes compared to most any Exalted-kit I would build given the freedom to do so. Can Throgg be considered cheese? After all he turns Trolls into a Core choice. He use to act as a BSB but with the bump a true BSB got that ability's not what it use to be. Also he's a Hero choice, but not as optimal as a custom-kit Exalted. I define cheese as taking advantage of a Special Character or even a unit that performs beyond it's point cost. Units are designed to work within the frame works of the army so it's not always easy to guage if a unit's point cost is truly underpointed (IMO) Characters on the otherhand are much easier in most cases to make a judgement on. You can often take the standard character builds and simulate the "special" character. After paying for stats or abilities with generic items or upgrades what's left over is the difference you'll need to judge as cheese -_- Wulfrik is fairly standard, while Archaon a bit harder but doable. Throgg not so much, but Honestly I think he might be overpriced (like Archaon in my opinion) Sigvald's just a waste of points imo and while I like Vilitch, I'm not sure the lil'bastards extra ability with dice is worth the 50 points it looks likes it's costing you. Then there's Galrauch. I think he might just be cheese (as given by my description above) ^_^ Whereas Throgg and Wulfrik open up the WoC playing style characters like Galrauch and Kholek are just nasty hammers ;) I'm not all that fond of Kholek - like Valkia he deserves a righteous model - Galrauch can have devastating effects all over the game board and I think if you tried adding up his abilties you'd be hard pressed to simulate him with a Tzeentch Dragon Sorceror. |
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| snyggejygge | Aug 23 2010, 05:46 PM Post #5 |
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High Zar of Khorne
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Some specialcharacters are quite ok imo, I use Scyla myself quite often tbh, while others are not so ok ofc. I consider Wulfrik to be one of those ok characters, but tbh if there's one character in our book that ppl consider cheezy it's Throgg. Just look what you get for those 175 pts, a profile far superior to a normal Exalted (-2 WS, +1S, +1T, +2W, -5I, +1A), Mutant Regeneration, Magical Puke, a Vomit attack that uses template (so basically 2D6 extra S5 hits that ignores armor when needed), he acts as a secondary BSB & general & to top it off he makes trolls core so that you free up a lot of Special%. While it might not be game breaking, he could've cost around 250 pts & still be a bargain for WoC players, that you think he's overpriced is just... So what you should ask yourself is whether you want to use Throgg because he's so good, or do you actually want to theme your army around him? (in which case you shouldn't be using warriors, knights, marauders & such stuff, but rather monsters to the max) I would go for Vilitch (who looks balanced but I never tried him) or Wulfrik (who has a good rule, but is overall quite weak) out of those you suggested if you want to play fair, & only get Throgg if you face powergamers, are at tournaments or want to theme the entire army around him. |
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| Dracos | Aug 27 2010, 09:46 AM Post #6 |
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The Chosen
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Ok so maybe 175pts isn't so bad for what he does ;) I'm not totally sold on the BSB/General comparison, as he only performs those abilities within a limited role, but your points are well taken. Especially since I haven't had the chance to field test him . . . yet. So we have one quasi-cheese, 2 if you count Galrauch, 3 who are overcost and 2 who might be fair and balanced. :rock: |
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| cokeisit | Aug 27 2010, 11:12 AM Post #7 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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No mention of Festus? Unit regen and poison attack? I love the favored of Papa Nurgle, but he is definitely underpointed, in my opinion. |
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| confused | Aug 27 2010, 07:56 PM Post #8 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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Special Characters are like a third of the WoC book. Would I be able to arbitarily remove a third of other armies' choices without being vilified? :) |
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| Tabernacle of Priapus | Aug 27 2010, 09:18 PM Post #9 |
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The Chosen
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i love characters like Throgg who change building types of the army, like Bretonian lords on Pegasus change Pegasus knights form being 0-1 or that Dwarf guy making rangers scout, or Skragg making Gorgers Special instead of rares in Ogre Kingdoms. i'll always embrace those kinds of characters even if i don't play that army type. Archaon has been carried down from edition to edition and remains the consummate BAMF of Chaos for at least 3 editions now... i'm all for that. Galrauch & Kholek are Monster Doom Characters that put a spin on the whole army taking it somewhere most others cannot. "My general is on a dragon." "My general IS a dragon!!" Sigvald, Valkia, Vilitch & Festus are fluff charcaters for each of the gods.... but kind of boring. back stories are cool and all, but they're abilities for what they do are so lacking they remain just story characters for me and i don't think i've actually see one on the table. (although the concept of Valkia having a second "almost" Battle Standard Bearer power on the table is kind interesting in 8th now) Scyla and Wulfrik are pure fluff and okay ability wise as they are neither expensive nor lords. (and Scyla helps you break that limit 2 rare choice is you feel like going spawn heavy.) what do i think of chaos special characters? Good and plentiful for whatever army style you are running. |
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| Dracos | Aug 30 2010, 08:27 AM Post #10 |
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The Chosen
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So Thorek and Teclis are okay with you? I just don't want to try and use a character tha approaches the Lands of Wisconsin like those characters do. I'm not sure we even have characters like that, though I'm beginning to suspect Galrauch might be driving up I-69 |
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| confused | Sep 8 2010, 05:44 PM Post #11 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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I wouldn't worry too much about that; just give the special characters a try and after a few games you and your opponents can talk about whether they are OP or not. My point really was this: banning all special characters just because a few overperform is silly. It would be like banning use of all magic items because the DE pendant is too good or banning every large target because of Hydras and HPAs. Arbitary massed bannings hurt the players because it cuts down on variety in their lists. For an army whose background orients heavily around characters this does seem rather penalising, especially as I've rarely heard complaints about the WoC special characters (nor Scylla). |
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| Lungboy | Sep 8 2010, 09:07 PM Post #12 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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His abilities are balanced by having no armour or ward save and just his regen to rely on. |
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| sgtspaz | Sep 9 2010, 04:26 AM Post #13 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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I found Festus gets killed off pretty easy after the unit champ is dead and he has to issue a challenge himself. |
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| Rimmz | Sep 9 2010, 04:42 AM Post #14 |
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The Chosen
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WoC Special Characters are probably the most fighty in the game. Very few special characters can stand up to Archon or Valkia or even Sigvald in a straight fight. The reason people don't complain about them is that you can say the exact same thing about a tooled up Chaos Lord. None of the Special Characters have game breaking abilities. Valkia's EotG ability only affects your army Archon doesn't screw over your opponent. People only bitch about things that have no counter. Teclis can pretty much cast spells all day long at IF and not miscast so his magic is devastating. Fateweaver can throw so many spells down its ridiculous. Thorik's anvil has no counter at all. These are the things people complain about. None of the WoC characters have that problem. |
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| Nurgleboy77 | Sep 9 2010, 07:52 AM Post #15 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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I absolutely LOVE Valkia in my Khorne army. Using Chosen and a Warshrine I roll a lot on the EotG chart and her re-roll plus Favor on the Chosen Champ really comes in handy. Throgg is a beast for his points (who can sniff at 3d6 S5 NAS?) and gives a great oportunity to build a monster horde (which I am! B)). |
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