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| Marauder Hordes!; For generals new and old to Chaos | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 2 2010, 02:27 PM (716 Views) | |
| Urdokadin | Sep 2 2010, 02:27 PM Post #1 |
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The bringer of pestilent rages.
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Part 1) Of marks, men and ramblings! Marauder hordes! The internet quakes at them....and also has topics all over the place about how to destroy them. Many people look at hordes as a sledgehammer...rightly so, particularly how destructive 30+ str 5 attacks can be. However.... there CAN be tactics...subtle and altogether very un-Khornate lines of thought....however since this is all Just As Planned we can simply skip the god vs god semantics and get right into the meat and potatoes of it. One of the largest arguments I've heard against hordes is because of how rarely you'll get to use the full compliment of attacks; my retort is.... In horde formation...your unit stops being a unit, it becomes a piece of dangerous terrain that your opponent will have absolutely no wish to engage with or be in charge range of. A unit of 50 with great weapons, full command and Mark of Khorne comes in at 300 points....that is an insane point value for what you get; a unit with str 5, ws 4 ignores fear, terror and panic and is initiative 4...(rendering them in the "ok" position of passing intiative tests against the ever popular purple sun) Our marauders are dirt cheap....so much so that I'd even say that they might be under pointed in the current edition but that's for another topic. The end of the day, you can field ALOT of bodies on the field, moreover you can field alot of bodies which can be made to be resistant to many of the more common ways of hurting horde units....in case you couldn't guess I'm talking about MARKS. So lets break it down -Slaanesh- For those of us who look pretty in pink....or prefer our units to never have to take a fear, terror or panic check...ever. Dirty cheap and was the weapon of choice for tournament armies in 7th edition, with the advent of 8th it's taken a bit of a hit in utility...but it's still dirt cheap. This mark helps with one of the bigger anti-horde tactics: PANIC, the vast majority of units people will want to horde are cheap models who can afford to be fielded in large numbers....most of the time they come with pretty shoddy leadership...Skaven slaves...goblins...gnoblars...yeah...they'll hold the line real well. And yes, I realize most of the time people will run both their BSB and their general near these type of units but the best way to pass a test is to never take it. With Slaanesh we can afford to run that big scary horde unit with a bit more leeway. -Nurgle- If you've ever wanted to be both withered and bloated at the same time Nurgle is your god of choice...he's got good medical too. He covers ALL diseases....so long as you pass the bundles of joy on... Nurgle is a red-headed step child of marks...which saddens me because I've got some very nicely painted (for me!) Nurgle knights and warriors in my army. A tad over-priced for what it does and very limited utility in hand to hand combat it still is a potent defensive mark against ballistics based shooting. Such as; Handgunners, crossbowmen, Dwarf thunderers, Skinks, Any race with bolt throwers (orcs, goblins, elves of dark and high variety), repeater crossbows, gnoblar sharp stuff, Ungor bowmen, Marauder throwing axes and javelins, Brettonian Bowmen, anything that looks remotely mobile in the wood elf army....the list goes on and on. Suffice to say there are ALOT of potential opponents and situations where -1 on shooting attempts will make a big difference in how many casualties you will take. My opinion is that on marauder units, unless you're going for a fluff it should be left at home. It's counter-intuitive to the purpose of a Horde unit to provide them with the shooting defense...they WILL die in droves by virtue of being toughness 3 with minimal armor....is it really worth the extra cost that provides next to nothing to the unit in hand to hand? On units that pay a premium for those bodies on the field (like warriors, chosen and knights) the mark jumps dramatically in desire because every lost man is that much more painful...a marauder dies and you have 49 left....whatever will you do? Particularly because part of what makes Marauder hordes feared on the battlefield is that they can hurt you back, this does nothing to intimidate an opponent into not wanting to engage. -Tzeentch- Now this is an interesting mark, and one which provides the most synergies with items and options a hero in the unit can provide. Moreover this really assists with making this unit it a definite anvil rather than the sledgehammer people are yammering about. It's just a basic 6+ ward...all the time against everything...with a shield you have a 5+ ward, with light armor and shield you go to 5+ armor then 5+ ward...laughable? Hardly if you have to chew threw 20 or 30 models to remove steadfast. With the iron curse icon on an exalted or a sorcerer in a Tzeentch horde the unit gains a 5+ ward save against one of the other really big anti-horde tactics people use: Template War Machines.(which are also the kings of the battlefield this edition....but annnyway) Moreover if that same hero provides magic resistance as well, this unit becomes much much more durable against the strategies an opponent would wish to do against this unit to whittle it down. -Khorne- Ah...now this mark is the ONE. The Mark of the Blood God is simple, it's brutally short and to the point. You are frenzied. Maybe you had a bad day at work or your girlfriend dumped you for your best friend...whatever your cause dedication to the blood god is a boon not to be wasted. Everything said about slaanesh earlier also applies here (at least until you lose in combat....) except for looking pretty in pink. And of course being three times more expensive than She-Who- Thirsts' mark. Khorne makes our units into blenders but it is a BIG tradeoff, you trade reliability in psychology for being utterly predictable whenever you win a combat. Frenzy forces you to pursue and overrun, so you will never get a free reform when people run away from the unit which CAN lead to sticky situations. This mark is what makes marauder hordes dangerous when taken with great weapons or flails; the sheer number of str 5 attacks is mind numbing if an opponent is foolish enough to engage in hand to hand, moreso because for every marauder that falls the point value exchange going on is phenominally in favour of the marauders. For example...say a unit of warriors charges the marauders (this is simple math and NOT mathhammer) say the marauders manage to down 6 warriors, the warriors mow down 20 marauders. Those 20 marauders were equipped with great weapons, so at 5 points a model that comes to 100 points.... 6 warriors armed with shields and halberds....102 points Warrior blocks typically come in units of 18 or less; you've cleared out a 3rd of the unit, you're steadfast and probably on leadership 8. You CAN grind them down into being useless. Granted you've lost frenzy, but your unit did it's job of hurting that unit back hard enough to make it less useful. |
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| Urdokadin | Sep 2 2010, 03:05 PM Post #2 |
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The bringer of pestilent rages.
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Part 2) Will it float? So if you're still reading I have to apologize...I've inflicted mental trauma on you with my walls of text and will continue to do so. Read on at your own peril. Now the number one most important piece of advice about reading internet forums about Warhammer is to not listen to anything anyone says (except me...because I'm awesome) at face value. Test it. That's the long and short answer to any bit of advice or question you may ever have. Test it in a game and see how it feels to you. Math dominates certain aspects of this game (namely all of them as it's nothing but dice rolls) but having a gut instinct on any given thing is more important than any number of percentages. To that end I present a little summation on my thoughts of marauder hordes and WHY they are a viable and valuable tool in the box of any chaos general. 8th Edition - It's been a massive change to how we all construct our armies to account for all the rules changes from 7th to 8th but here's a few that really alter the perceptions on things 1) Steadfast - Absolutely massive, making a unit stubborn if it has more ranks has completely changed how effective things are and how long a unit can be held in a combat. 2) Step-up- Again also massive, with units being able to inflict casualties back, Shock troops such as witch elves and knight units took a hard hit in the survivability department. 3) BSB rerolls to everything but Craps- The addition of being able to reroll all leadership and psychology tests makes for more versatile and durable armies against formerly popular builds like Daemon Leadership bombs. 4) March block as a leadership test- This coupled with #3 have made Chaos MUCH harder to stop from getting where we want...namely in the midst of a melee with the enemy...preferably with them being strength 3 and toughness 3. Shaking in their boots and saying their prayers *neither of these are required though it is amusing*. With the changes to 8th we have the stage set for an infantry centric metagame which has a scissors (templates) to our paper (infantry) One could argue the semantics on balance and the lack thereof all way till 9th edition so we'll just move along. Though often overshadowed by the much manlier and also the more prone to set off airport metal detector Warriors/Chosen, Marauders DO serve a purpose in the lists. They're cheap, expendable and can be brought with sufficient numbers to make steadfast and step-up be their ally rather than their enemy. Warriors have the opposite reaction to steadfast and step-up, every one which falls hurts the unit that much more. Most units will stick around at least a round against a block of warriors, which just like me with women want to be in, out and on to the next fight. (Disclaimer, I am not really like that, but for your amusement pretend I am.) So then, what makes a Horde unit dangerous? -Number of bodies, which equates to #1 from earlier -The number of attacks back, # 2 Marauders can do both at the same time, but their attacks back are actually rather....normal. Which is what makes it scary, most crummy units on the table don't have much going from them attack wise. ws 4 and str 5 won't make the world stop, 40 attacks like that can (provided of course you can get all those models in base contact) Marauders have this going for them -Cheapness -Equipment and marks Like I said previously, Marauders are dirt cheap...dime a dozen awesome in an army strapped for points when we put down anything that isn't a warhound or these guys. It's intimidating for an opponent to see a large block on the table when most of the time they'll feel they outnumber your army. Though percentages dominate the model combats, the order and the types of odds you have to face are determined by many factors of which one is the reaction an opponent will take to the shock value of seeing your army. (Painted models don't just roll better, they also attract more attention...) Marauders also have OPTIONS, not just a couple choices but ALOT of options: 4 Marks, 4 types of equipment they can buy and Full Command Options to choose from. Chaos in general is one of the last armies out there with units that can pick and choose what they want a unit to function as. Most armies end up having units that are obviously dedicated to certain roles, like how dwarves have hammerers for...hammering. Marauders on the other hand can be made to serve whatever purpose your army construction demands of them, they're a bit like duct-tape in the sense that they can try and fill in for some of the other things in your army that may be more specialized (I wouldn't fancy trying to anvil anything with a unit of Ogres) |
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| Unuhexium | Sep 2 2010, 04:47 PM Post #3 |
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The Chosen
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Interesting read... and quite amusing as well. This calls for some experimenting. One of my main concerns with WoC is that our troops are usually easy to outmanoeuvre. My main opponent has a nasty habit of bringing mind boggling amounts of skinks and by turn four when he has lost pretty much the rest of his army just runs circles around my troops, filling them with darts which has turned the score in his favour quite a few times. Horde units should, at least in theory, stop a bit of this. TL:DR: Horde units are hard to outmanoeuvre. |
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| mrtn | Sep 2 2010, 09:39 PM Post #4 |
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Swashbuckling Moderator
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Good write up, makes me interested in playing with WoC again, which I haven't really been since my knight unit fell all to pieces. And since I use beastmen as counts as marauders the GW ones I just finished ([shameless plug] pics in my painting diary [/shameless plug]) actually fit very well. |
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| Krakanrock | Sep 2 2010, 10:19 PM Post #5 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Lots of good info in there - informative AND entertaining! ^_^
That has to be the best bit of advice to any novice Warhammer player out there! |
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| adrift | Sep 2 2010, 10:51 PM Post #6 |
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The Chosen
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Obviously this may be related to how I am using them, but I have found that the downside with marauder hordes is that they are usually going to give up their VPs by the end of the battle. They just die too easily. Warrior units...not as much. And a properly kitted out M-horde (of 40 to 50 models) will cost as much as most warrior units. So for me...the jury is still out. YMMV |
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| Kraytirous | Sep 2 2010, 11:00 PM Post #7 |
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Exalted Guardian
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This has the Kraytirous stamp of approval. Posted Image |
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| phierlihy | Sep 3 2010, 10:36 AM Post #8 |
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The Chosen
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The one other big utility I find for a big block of Marauders is that it is TOUGH to get their standard out of them. And if you're playing a scenario for battle standards, that can count for a lot. Regarding the Mark of Nurgle, if one compares it to the Mark of Khorne (and this is total math-hammer) the results often add up to Khorne delivering 2-3 more points of combat resolution. That may or may not be a valuable trade off depending on the army you're facing but againt some armies, avoiding their shooting can be huge! |
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| Sawdust | Sep 3 2010, 03:30 PM Post #9 |
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The Chosen
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I usually play this Marauder horde 40 strong, and if they all get to attack they hit hard. One big downside though is that I more often than not can't bring my full complement of attacks to bear on my target, because the unit I'm fighting has a smaller frontage. This mostly results in a stalemate where my opponent can bring more attacks into the game and wins the fight even though I make my men steadfast and so on. And it's not nice to see your big unit run away and be caught by a much smaller unit, even though they still are marauders. And when you field 40-50 marauders in a unit thats gonna hurt on your VP tally at the end of the game as adrift mentioned. Maybe I'm using them wrong? Any Idea how we should use them? Deployment, units to pit them against and so on... |
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| Unuhexium | Sep 3 2010, 05:52 PM Post #10 |
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The Chosen
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I will experiment a bit with this sort of unit and for starters I think I will deploy them on a flank and use them to pinch the enemy troops between a rock (warriors) and a hard place (marauders) so to speak. This still won't bring all of their attacks to bear, but it plays on their width to catch the enemy while more durable frontal assault troops hold the line. |
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| Urdokadin | Sep 3 2010, 07:56 PM Post #11 |
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The bringer of pestilent rages.
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One of the tactics that's served me very well is using the swift reform to turn my 5x10 unit into a 10x5 column, very few units have that many ranks so you can deny steadfast while guaranteeing your own. Another sneaky trick I've found with swift reform is using it to make your opponents have to double check their plan, going from ten wide to five wide drops the relative width of the unit by quite a bit since the center point of the unit needs to stay the same, sometimes enough to frustrate an incoming flanker for a turn. |
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| Rimmz | Sep 3 2010, 09:12 PM Post #12 |
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The Chosen
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I've been wondering lately how a 50 strong GW packing Khorne marked Marauder unit with Wulfrik would work. Also why I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere yet. 50 Marauders coming in from your opponents deployment zone. Yes please You could even argue that is its better to come onto the board on turn 2 or 3 as your opponent has time to commit his forces before the Marauders show up and jack up his Christmas. |
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