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Book of secrets and spell familiar; on a lvl 2 wizard
Topic Started: Sep 20 2010, 10:19 PM (875 Views)
Rimmz
The Chosen
The Rule requiring someone with a Mark to take that specific lore is listed under the entry for the Sorcerer and Demon Prince under their entry for magic. (pg 119 and 120 WoC)

It is not listed under the exalted or lord. So if you were to take the book you would not be required to take your marked lore. Although I still think there would be an argument against it.

WoC FAQ:
Page 115 – Book of Secrets, second paragraph
Change to “Treat the bearer as a Level 1 Wizard, who may use
the Lore of Fire, Lore of Shadow or Lore of Death. He may
not attempt to channel. If he ever casts a spell with irresistible
force he must roll D6+1 rather than 2D6 on the Miscast
table.”

So he is a Wizard that cannot channel. Since he is a Wizard he can take Arcane items. It says he may use any of those lore's. In fact I would argue the fact that he couldn't take his lore magic as the item specifically lists what lore's he can take.

Although he is a wizard so he can take arcane items. The Spell Familiar would count towards the lore selected from the BoS

I think that should put this issue to rest.
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confused
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Warrior of the Chamber
Rimmz
Sep 24 2010, 03:06 AM
The Rule requiring someone with a Mark to take that specific lore is listed under the entry for the Sorcerer and Demon Prince under their entry for magic. (pg 119 and 120 WoC)

...

I think that should put this issue to rest.

*issueromancy!*

I'm afraid I must confound things. Sorry.

WoC pg 106:
The term 'Sorcerer' is used to describe wizards who follow the Chaos Gods' ... 'Sorcerors with a Mark of Chaos always generate spells from the lore appropriate to that mark'.

It seems a marked exalted/lord with a BoS is a wizard who follows the Chaos Gods, therefor a sorceror. As such the BoS chaos champion will always generate spells from their respective marks. This would perhaps also apply to models with the Wizard's Hat (smurf knows how it would apply to Khorne marked models with a Wizard's Hat)!
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IceHell
Warrior of the Chamber
I don't see why this discussion has to go on, the item CLEARLY states the lores to use. The only way your arguement has any value is from a fluffy point of view. In a friendly game you can argue this point of view and ask your oponent to play fluffy instead of to the letter of the rules, otherwise, there's simply no way you could ever misread the description of this item.
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Godless-Mimicry
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No' 9

IceHell
Sep 25 2010, 10:07 PM
I don't see why this discussion has to go on, the item CLEARLY states the lores to use. The only way your arguement has any value is from a fluffy point of view. In a friendly game you can argue this point of view and ask your oponent to play fluffy instead of to the letter of the rules, otherwise, there's simply no way you could ever misread the description of this item.

If this site had an approval I'd give you +1.
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confused
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IceHell
Sep 26 2010, 06:07 AM
I don't see why this discussion has to go on, the item CLEARLY states the lores to use. The only way your arguement has any value is from a fluffy point of view. In a friendly game you can argue this point of view and ask your oponent to play fluffy instead of to the letter of the rules, otherwise, there's simply no way you could ever misread the description of this item.

I'm sorry.

I noticed some rules for lore use in the army book so I thought it would be worth bringing them to the discussion. Obviously I want to make sure the debate covers every angle; if I'm playing a game against someone and they have a query or comment on how the item should be played I'll be able to talk about it from a better informed point of view.

I don't see immediately why an item's rule would trump the rules for marks and lores. If there is a magic items > all rule in 8th as there was in 7th I'd appreciate if you could point me the right direction (rather than being told the discussion is done when I have bought fresh info to the table).

I didn't mean to be abrasive or contrary; if that is how I came across I apologise. I just wanted to make sure the discussion was complete.
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IceHell
Warrior of the Chamber
I wasn't in any way offended by your comment at all. But sometimes you really don't have to make things harder then they are (especialy not when awnsering a question by a new member).

If you want a fighty level one with a chaos lore, put a sorcerer on the table and kit him out. The only use of this item would be adding access to new lores, as the item description states (otherwise you're giving up on the 110 + 25 - 85 = 50 points for no real gain at all). If it isn't going to be of any partical use in a game at all, why try and discuss what was clearly ment to be an easy ordeal. I'm no fan of any sort of rule lawyering, but the pointless type would be my least favourite.

Again, this isn't a personal remark, what you bring to the table is literaly in the book (and thus you are indeed right) but it clearly contradicts only if you really want to take every single detail literal. So as I said before: if this is the way you want to play it, try and make an arrangement in friendly games, if you can't roll it off. But you'll be cheating yourself out of points. Unless if you're thinking of putting a chaos lore on your chosen champion, in wich case I'ld still disaggree this is in your best interest, since you want your chosen in combat (where they can't cast), or they'll basicaly be useless.
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Lungboy
Warrior of the Chamber
The Chosen can still cast some things in combat, just not magic missiles or template direct damage spells, plus LOS spells trying to target anything other than the unit they are engaged with.
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confused
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IceHell
Sep 28 2010, 03:25 AM
I wasn't in any way offended by your comment at all. But sometimes you really don't have to make things harder then they are (especialy not when awnsering a question by a new member).

If you want a fighty level one with a chaos lore, put a sorcerer on the table and kit him out. The only use of this item would be adding access to new lores, as the item description states (otherwise you're giving up on the 110 + 25 - 85 = 50 points for no real gain at all). If it isn't going to be of any partical use in a game at all, why try and discuss what was clearly ment to be an easy ordeal. I'm no fan of any sort of rule lawyering, but the pointless type would be my least favourite.

Again, this isn't a personal remark, what you bring to the table is literaly in the book (and thus you are indeed right) but it clearly contradicts only if you really want to take every single detail literal. So as I said before: if this is the way you want to play it, try and make an arrangement in friendly games, if you can't roll it off. But you'll be cheating yourself out of points. Unless if you're thinking of putting a chaos lore on your chosen champion, in wich case I'ld still disaggree this is in your best interest, since you want your chosen in combat (where they can't cast), or they'll basicaly be useless.

I'm confused.

Are you saying its rules-lawyery and makes weaker builds to interpret a book of secrets chaos wizard must swap his book lore for his mark lore?

I don't really care which way the penny falls on the matter as long as it doesn't land on the edge. I haven't used my khorne knights since 7th as its not clear (to me) how I should play the rule. I don't want to be uncertain on BoS + marks either as I wouldn't feel comfortable writing the combo into a list.
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