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2250pts Warrior List
Topic Started: Oct 9 2010, 09:05 PM (1,062 Views)
Goodspawn
Champion of Nurgle
Hm, being a bit beefer and not stupid does sound fairly handy! Trolls end up much cheaper, but not as much customizable (which makes the cost of ogres sky-rocket).

Pah! Who can choose? I can't make a decision on anything!
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
@ whtdwrf11 - Well exactly and to be honest I dont like either item, if you take the cheap option that pretty much means I have to use the sorcerer as my general which isn't exactly all that hard to kill :(

@ ThatGood - Well I don't know if stupidity is all that much of a draw back with the new BSB rules, Ogres in chaos armour and armed with great weapons are not exactlty cheap however, they are more points than trolls and Trolls have a better stomp attack.

I also have to figure out my 500pts chaos list for the tail of painters in my local GW
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whtdwrf11
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Exalted Guardian
Well they only skyrocket depending on the options you give them just chaos armor and four ogres is only 160 points for a 4 plus armour save and 12 attacks on the charge at S4.

Obviously if you toss great weapons and a mark in there then yeah there going to start skyrocketing along with a command model or two.

Edit: Yeah that's the problem with both of those armour options you could get better pieces of equipment.

Also this was mentioned in the FAQ but now trolls vomit attacks can be used by any troll able to fight or as a supporting attack when the whole unit uses it.

So say you have six trolls your throwing literally six S5 attacks that ignore armour saves.
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
Well who wouldnt give ogres great weapons! its not like that have high I anyways (I2) so you may as well accept the fact your striking last and give them strength 6, If you not giving them great weapons I cant see a single reason to use them over trolls.
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whtdwrf11
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Exalted Guardian
Yeah it would be pointless to take them without great weapons at all and then nothing forces you to take chaos armour either so they wouldn't get too expensive but they do add an extra banner and musician to a list where trolls do not.
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Goodspawn
Champion of Nurgle
Someone around here mentioned how the best way to take ogres during 7th was minimalist, so just the ogres and GW. Chaos armour is so snazy though!

Can we get away with only taking four, or would we need six for the rank?
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
Well the only problem with ogres and no armour is T4, with them striking last you going to lose a model :(
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whtdwrf11
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Exalted Guardian
Well the ogres do come with heavy armour already you could buy chaos armour for them if you really wanted too.

As for the whole T4 you would need to have a S4 to wound them on a 4 plus and a S5 to would on a 3 plus and most armies have lots of S3 troops which wound on a 5 plus as it is and then they have to manage to get three wounds through just to take down one ogre which leaves three to hit back hard at the enemy.

Of course if your sending them straight down the throat of the unit your asking for them to get swarmed all over you want to use ogres to smash those flanks to pieces on units engaged with your warrior or marauder blocks.
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
I totally forgot they had chaos armour, the FW models are a misleading ;)

Yeah I guess you are right! hmm, I will certainly have to think about it some more, maybe test out both options and see how each performs!
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Priest33
Favoured of Slaanesh
My biggest problem with Ogres is that you can get the same effect from Warriors with GW's and MOK. Sure its not using Warriors Int but their cheaper and you can get more attacks out with them then the ogres.

-edit-

Also with Warriors higher WS they are going to hit more then the ogres will and really get the best benefit of str6.
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whtdwrf11
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Exalted Guardian
Ah the fickleness of misleading models.

I would certainly try both for a few games to see which seems to do best for you.

The ogres with upgrades and stuff will cost more than the trolls but not all that much more since four chaos ogres with chaos armour and great weapons is 200 and four trolls is 180 now if you included a musician and standard and marks then the ogres would start getting a bit on the heavy side for points.

The funny thing is that just armed with great weapons and using six ogres there 270 while six trolls are also 270 again adding upgrades makes the ogres heavier points wise but having another banner and musician in your army on three wound monsters is pretty tempting.
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whtdwrf11
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Exalted Guardian
Ogres come with three attacks and support with three attacks as well because of being monstrous infantry so a unit of six is going to be throwing out about 18 attacks if there hit in the front plus then they get their stomp attacks as well and that's without a mark of Khorne now of course this is not taking into account any dying so bear that in mind for both units.

The Khorne warriors will get more attacks but read on further if you will.

I just added it up and a normal unit of 18 Khorne marked warriors with only great weapons is 336 while a six strong ogre unit if you go that high Khorne marked and with great weapons is 300 it's 330 if you decide to give them chaos armour for a better save.

Now if we add in musicians and standard bearers but no shields for the chaos warriors there only 6 cheaper than a unit of six ogres with musician and standard who also have chaos armour and great weapons who will be 360 now if we toss shields to the chaos warriors they will be 12 more than the six ogres.

WS3 isn't all that bad to begin with since the only thing that will be hard to hit will be models with a WS7 and usually the only ones that have a WS that high are lord characters.

Now the reason I only mention a unit of six ogres is because I think most would only go as far as six since more than that then and it starts getting really expensive and also the reason I only mention 18 chaos warriors is the fact again most people seem to be going with 18 or 24 chaos warriors as an optimal size for them.

Edit: It just dawned on me that I should have edited my previous post instead of writing a completely new one so apologies for the double post.
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
@ Priest33 - Sadly that is true, I do actually have a unit of warriors with great weapons :D I think the main advantage of Ogres over warriors is M6 and fear.

@ whtdwrf11 - To be honest 18 warriors with halberds or additional hand weapons and MoK would total own a unit of 6 ogres, they only have to cause 18 wounds to wipe them out and every 3 wounds seriously reduces their combat effectiveness. With a unit of 18 warriors you actually have to kill 13 models before you have any real effect, even if its only the front rank you are still looking at 18/19 attacks heading you way.

The more I think about the more I wonder if its worth getting a nice big unit of chosen :D
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whtdwrf11
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Exalted Guardian
Very true they could but you still have to cut through 3 wounds a piece just to take down a single ogre and like I said though your most likely not going to throw them right down the throat of a unit.

If they do somehow manage to get in the front the ones who survive will still dish out quite a lot of pain with the front rank having four attacks each if their Khorne marked and still three supporting attacks since if I recall it's capped at three.

So you would be looking at twelve attacks from the front ogres then another three to nine attacks from the second rank of ogres depending on how many you managed to cut down then you have to face five or six stomp attacks at the end of the combat.

So I still see ogres as a very valuable unit even if you can do it with Khorne marked warriors I would rather have the high initiative compared to striking last with my warriors.
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
lets do the math :P

Warriors with halberds

24 attacks -> 16 hits -> 11 wounds - 2 saves so 3 dead

Ogres attack back

9 attacks -> 4.5hits -> 4 wounds -> 4 dead
3 stomps -> 1.5 wounds -1 dead
combat res

Chaos warriors 12
ogres 4

Warriors with additional hand weapons

30 attacks -> 20 hits -> 10 wounds -> 2 dead, one takes a wound

Ogres back

12 attacks -> 6 hits -> 5 wounds -> 5 dead
3 stomps -> 1.5 wounds -1 dead

Chaos Warriors - 10
Ogres - 8

Man why I am I using additional weapon warriors again?

The main thing I think with ogres is that they are a unit that provide S6 which dont really lose anything by having a great weapon, they certainly have a role on the table, cracking tough nutts :)

*edit*

list updated on first page, not sure on the correct chosen unit size.
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