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| Optimal size of warrior units in 8th; What size for utility units of warriors? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 12 2011, 12:28 AM (1,598 Views) | |
| Mr Saturday | Apr 12 2011, 12:28 AM Post #1 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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Howdy all. First post, be gentle. What size would people consider optimal for utility units of warriors in 8th? I'm currently thinking 30. Also, what is the best combo of gear/mark for such a unit, which must be both hammer and anvil depending on the situation? |
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| wamphyri101 | Apr 12 2011, 02:09 AM Post #2 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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Hi Mr Saturday, Pretty new around here also but seems best sizes I see (and have used) are units of 18 (6 wide 3 back) Means you can take 6 kills before it hits your combat effectiveness and you are not wasting too many points. Other than that if you want bigger units for for 24 (6 x 4) |
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| sometimesafish | Apr 12 2011, 04:49 AM Post #3 |
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The Chosen
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Here's what I go by: Hammer (MoK, MoN): Points < 2000 - 15 warriors Points >=2000 - 18 warriors Anvil (MoT): Points <2000 - 15-18 warriors Points >= 2000 - 18-20 warriors (I have more for the anvil because I will throw them against elites to hold them up) Hammer kit: MoK or MoN with banner of rage + Halberd, Mus + SB (I'll put in the banner of eternal flame if I think I will face regen) Anvil Kit: MoT + Shield, Mus + SB (Blasted standard optional) All around kit: MoN, Halb, Shield (if you face heavy shooting), SB + Mus, and your favorite banner (I prefer rage unless I've already put it on some nurgle knights) I'll only use a champion if I plan to keep a sorcerer or weak BSB in the unit to make the first challenge. Overall I think 30 is too big. It is a lot of points in one basket, a good dwellers/plague etc will really hurt you. Also, you will have less units; people find it harder to deal with 2-3 warrior blocks as opposed to one really big one. Ok, that's not always true, you can surprise someone with a deathstar, but all around the smaller more numerous blocks are better. If you have 15 warriors just standing at the back of a unit doing nothing, you are wasting a lot of your own killing potential! |
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| cokeisit | Apr 12 2011, 05:20 AM Post #4 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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I had a lot of trouble with when I first started Warriors - I wanted to walk in and smash things. One-trick pony is one-trick. Thanks for repeating wisdom! |
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| Azactoth | Apr 12 2011, 10:16 PM Post #5 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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I feel 28warrior +Sorcerer and BsB for the right unit size (6x5 rank)... In 8th there is no point gain for reducing units to their half str... so 28 halberd Shied Tzeentch warrior iž a good point denail option... Generaly I give them Frenzy Banner and Curse of Iron pendant to my Bsb... and pair that unit with 18 Chosen with Blasted Standard in 2000Pst games... |
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| Kormak | Apr 12 2011, 11:52 PM Post #6 |
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High Executioner of Khorne
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MoK + halberds - 18 strong deployed 6x3 MoT+HW+SH - 20 strong deployed 5x4 |
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| Mr Saturday | Apr 13 2011, 04:13 AM Post #7 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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Excellent, thank you all.
sometimesafish, this line makes a lot of sense to me. 30 warriors is a major point sink, and with all the unit deleting spells out there it's a gamble. Okay, 30 warriors is terrifying, yes, but the larger units will mean less units for deployment too. That gives me something to think on, cheers folks. |
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| Unuhexium | Apr 13 2011, 01:41 PM Post #8 |
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The Chosen
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I'd say not more than 18 people for a hammer unit and an anvil of 30 people is a bit too much as well. Remove 12 guys from the back of the unit and you can buy an extra horde of marauders. We can never have too many of those. |
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| Kormak | Apr 13 2011, 06:12 PM Post #9 |
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High Executioner of Khorne
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If you have a unit of 30 chaos warriors then you deploy them as a horde formation 3x10 to provide you with 40-50 attacks. if you go down the 6x5 route then while then while not every chaos warrior is attack they are providing the ranks requires to break steadfast units. A small unit of chaos warriors (say 15) no matter how many attacks they throw out will struggle to break a steadfast unit, you can use marauders for this but all honesty if you buy a unit of 30 marauders with HW+SH just for ranks you would be just as well to plunk those points into the warriors. The models will last far longer with the increased power of templates and magic in general. If our concerned with magic and shooting its a very easy fix: character in unit with MR2 and ironcurse icon unit has banner of rage and MoT with halberds if its MR2 then the unit has a 4+ wardsave against magic (lore of metal mainly), 3+ save against standard shooting and a 5+ wardsave against warmachines. I personally don't like the deathstar approach some people are taking to the game (ironically these seem to be the people moaning about the dumpin down of warhammer). When you play this way its generally just move two big blocks at each roll some dice and someone wins, yay! Having less units deploy isn't always such a bad thing when someone has to kill 1000pts of models down to the last man in order to actually win! |
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| Mr Saturday | Apr 13 2011, 06:36 PM Post #10 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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Thanks Kormak, that's some more food for thought. Steadfast is the issue, isn't it? As a player new to the 8th ed chaos army (I did play chaos in 3rd/4th ed) I'm astounded by the quality of amour and ward saves available. It's great. As far as 8th goes, I have to say I'm having a blast so far. |
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| Bitterman | Apr 13 2011, 08:19 PM Post #11 |
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The Chosen
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...if the enemy has a similarly wide frontage, yes. If they only have a frontage of 5x20mm bases, then only six of your Warriors in each rank can fight, even though the rank has a frontage of ten... so you're still wasting four Warriors per rank. Sure, you get more attacks (ACR) as 10x3 than 6x5, but you still don't get every Warrior fighting, so why not just go 6x3 and save yourself 12 models' worth of points? |
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| Kormak | Apr 13 2011, 08:46 PM Post #12 |
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High Executioner of Khorne
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why do people have to state the obvious like this?, so yeah you up against a smaller frontage unit, you reform/deploy to combat this, even if your only fighting with 6 guys. If the unit you are fighting is only 5 wide then chances are it has a lot of rank which you are going to have to kill in order to break steadfast. If you can't break the unit it dosn't matter how many you kill as you unit is now open hex's and counter charges which may will result in a dead unit of chaos warriors.
I really suggest you read all my posts I have already said 18 is the optimal size, this does not discount the large units as being a viable option. It comes down to more than just models wastes. Larger units will win wars of attrition against most elite units. Small units with high damage out put may well win every round of combat but when they run out of the models and enemy has been passing his stubborn rerollable leadership test it really doesn't matter.
Yeah it really is a massive issue unless the dice go against someone, really as a army the only options we have to counter this is magic, hellcannons or cheap ranked infantry (or massive units of chaos warriors which make game become very dull very quickly). With magic the only real options you have are blast them, blast them some more of spells that effect leadership (doom and darkness and pandemonium to a degree). Hellcannon really is your best option to dealing large amount of damage to massive units, against a 20mm base it can score 21 hits, in my experience it usually only hits once a game (unless targeting lone models), after that I tend to use mine as monster :D |
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| Bitterman | Apr 13 2011, 09:56 PM Post #13 |
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The Chosen
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Maybe because the OP was asking a question? If everything was so obvious there wouldn't be a question to ask, would there? Come to that, "hordes get more attacks" is itself pretty obvious. So if stating the obvious is so bad, then...? |
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| Azactoth | Apr 13 2011, 10:52 PM Post #14 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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I agree with you. But there is only 2 good protection against warmachines. Blasted banner and Iron curse ... thats mean we can only protect 2 units against that HellSturms or +2 STR buffed Dwarven Grudge Throwers... When the unit sizes are 20- men, a single Large template can hit every single model in the unit. And with out a protection a Hellsturm rocket batery (potentionaly) easyly destroy or cripple 20- men warrior unit with 2 direct hit... Unfortunatelly 8th edition supports Large units... Other hands, we dont have to deploy less troop, We have Warhounds... and they are realy cheap units... I generally take 3+ 5model hound unit in 2000pst. Generally our warriors break our enemies but without needed rank bonuses they take steadfast breake tests. Large units (as Kormak said) can break and destroy larger units and war hounds only used for redirecting/obscuring enemy charges... In that way only 2 unit of large warrior unit enought for fighting power...( and we can protect that 2 unit against heavy Artillary) In that way is the game duller ? May be yes, but it is duller too when you must fight against 6+ War Machine Empire or Dwarven armies... or Magic Heavy lizardmen or High Elves... |
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| Kormak | Apr 13 2011, 11:14 PM Post #15 |
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High Executioner of Khorne
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I think their is a world difference between not be sure what the best is for a unit and knowing that if you attack models with a much smaller frontage you wont get all your attacks, don't you. The difference with not knowing the right size for you units is like in the case of chaos warriors you have so many options to think about which will change the units role as well the different play styles.
Well one of the main factors to consider here is the points size of the game, certainly a hellstrom or a grudge thrower is a pain to deal with but you have to also consider that these are still only going to hit if they get that 1/6 chance of a hit result. With large units will you can spread you ranged protection better you make the units easier to hit with template weapons as it has a bigger margin for error. You also have the chance that such weapons will explode, not fire for a turn etc. You also have several units that can deal with such targets quickly before they can deal any real damage, hounds, marauder horsemen, disc riders or even magic!
One of the things to keep in mind when people invest so heavily in magic or shoot is they are going to have less troops and they have chance of killing themselves (especially with puppet against wizards). What this also means is that we can afford to lose far more troops than normal because of the lower number of combat troops on the table to actually combat our blocks. |
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