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Archaon; Questions
Topic Started: Apr 20 2011, 02:01 AM (1,584 Views)
Benaiah
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The Chosen
Firstly I want to ask is Archaon monstrous cavalry. Everything I can see states that he is... but cavalry is defined in the main rulebook as having 1 wound mounts...

Next question. Is Archaon effected by killing blow? Per the FAQ characters on monstrous mounts can still be effected by killing blow. This was supposedly determined over an argument involving someone killing blow/instant KO'ing skulltaker off his jugger.

The opposing argument states that since Archaon doesn't have the option to upgrade to a monstrous mount (like a few other characters) they would not fall under this category and count as monstrous cavalry as stated in the main rulebook. And because of this they would be immune to killing blow.

Any ideas? :wacko:
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Godless-Mimicry
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No' 9

He is monstrous cavalry because that is what the RBRB bestiary says. This is FAQ confirmed.

As for KB, FAQ says any models that could be taken as infantry before being mounted can be KB, but otherwise no. Though Archaon can become infantry, he cannot be chosen as infantry, therefore he is immune.
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LORD VOKUL'NAX
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Corrupted Slann
Godless-Mimicry
Apr 20 2011, 05:31 AM
As for KB, FAQ says any models that could be taken as infantry before being mounted can be KB, but otherwise no. Though Archaon can become infantry, he cannot be chosen as infantry, therefore he is immune.

I don't know about that... it may be quite a though sell. In the spirit of the game, I would say that he is fair game to be vulnerable to KB. Even considering pure RAW it is a bit hazy.
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Leth Shyish'phak
The Chosen
Godless-Mimicry
Apr 20 2011, 05:31 AM
He is monstrous cavalry because that is what the RBRB bestiary says. This is FAQ confirmed.

As for KB, FAQ says any models that could be taken as infantry before being mounted can be KB, but otherwise no. Though Archaon can become infantry, he cannot be chosen as infantry, therefore he is immune.

How is Archaon becoming infantry? :huh:
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chiram
The Chosen
by killing his mount
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LORD VOKUL'NAX
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Corrupted Slann
chiram
Apr 20 2011, 02:40 PM
by killing his mount

You can't actually kill Archaon's mount separately anymore under the 8th edition rules.

On page 83, under Monstrous Cavalry it states "All the cavalry rules apply to monstrous cavalry, with one exception - monstrous cavalry always use the highest Wounds characteristic the model has, rather than automatically using the rider's - indeed this will normally mean that the model uses the the mount's Wounds characteristic."

From that I am lead to believe that the rider and the mount can not be killed separately. In the case of Archaon, you would use his wounds characteristic (4) because that is the higher of the two values; and once he has lost 4 wounds you would remove him AND his mount.
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chiram
The Chosen
i don't know tbh, then why don't the rules that that if one is higher then the other you have to neglect the lower ones wounds for the entire gaming purpose , and why is there still a monster reaction table then?
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Tome
Seeker of the Winds
chiram
Apr 20 2011, 06:02 PM
i don't know tbh, then why don't the rules that that if one is higher then the other you have to neglect the lower ones wounds for the entire gaming purpose , and why is there still a monster reaction table then?

Because Monstrous Cavalry are different from ridden Monsters.

A ridden Monster, such as a Chaos Dragon, can be killed separately from it's rider.

A Monstrous Cavalry unit, such as Archaon, is indistinguishable from it's mount for most purposes, much like Cavalry. Which means that Arachaon and his mount cannot be separated from Dorghar any more than a Chaos Knight can be separated from it's Chaos Steed.
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Benaiah
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The Chosen
I called GW and we figured this out.

No, the mount cannot be killed separately.

No, he is not vulnerable to killing blow. The bestiary says he is monstrous cavalry so no, he cannot be killed by killing blow (though he is vulnerable to heroic killing blow as would be expected).
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Alric
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Warrior of the Chamber
Benaiah
Apr 20 2011, 02:01 AM
Firstly I want to ask is Archaon monstrous cavalry.  Everything I can see states that he is... but cavalry is defined in the main rulebook as having 1 wound mounts...

Next question.  Is Archaon effected by killing blow?  Per the FAQ characters on monstrous mounts can still be effected by killing blow.  This was supposedly determined over an argument involving someone killing blow/instant KO'ing skulltaker off his jugger. 

The opposing argument states that since Archaon doesn't have the option to upgrade to a monstrous mount (like a few other characters) they would not fall under this category and count as monstrous cavalry as stated in the main rulebook.  And because of this they would be immune to killing blow.

Any ideas?    :wacko:

There was a really good discussion about this on Warseer that I would link but since Warseer is now a hackers paradise I wont do that.

The basic argument ended with Archaon and other special charaters , Fay Enchantress , and Tyrion beng affected by killing blow as the FAQ states.

I copy and pasted some of the post for reference. The short version is this.

The FAQ ...
Q: Does Killing Blow work against a mounted character regardless
of what he is mounted on? (p72)
A: Yes, as long as the character would count as an infantry
model if it wasn’t mounted.

Basically the FAQ states that a characters is affected by killing blow regardless of what he is riding as long as the character would count as infantry model if he wasnt mounted.

Some people fail to recognize that the word regardless means no matter what or in other words it doesnt matter what the character is riding.
Also some people dont understand the meaning of the second part of the FAQ which is a phrase thats states a conditional statement that literaly allows you to imagine what the character would be unmounted.

So what the FAQ is telling the player to do is imagine if the character would be an infantry model and if so then yes it would be affected by killing blow.

One very bright poster stated that he has all the models in question and is able to take each them off their mount and they are indeed the same as an infantry model.

I have the Archaon model from Games Day 2004 and he does come with the infantry 20mm base btw.

The back forth arguments were.
1) But the character is not listed in the rule book as "infantry" troop type - The FAQ doesnt refer to or base its answer on the troop type listings it only tells the player to imgaine if it would be an infantry model.

2)But the FAQ doesnt say imagine what the model would be - Actually thats exactly what the answer in the FAQ says do , its called a "present unreal conditional" statement.

3)But the character and rider can not both be attacked/targeted seperately - The FAQ doesnt require the mount to be targeted seperately only the character need be targetable.

4)But the Charater is troop type MC and MC cant be afftected by killing blow - Not according to the FAQ since the character gets it MC from being on a mount and the FAQ tells the player to ignore the mount.

5)But its an FAQ and FAQ's cant change rules - Technically its not changing the rules since according to the rules infantry is affected by killing blow. The FAQ is clarifying the fact that a character infantry model on a mount is still an infantry model vs. killing blow.


After a discussion with some WHFB players at our gaming club we surmized that there was a percieved aberration that came about with the new rules for characters with mounts and troop types that contradicted with the rules for Killing Blow.
According to the rules a character takes on the troop type of his mount (ie: monster/chariot/MC) but the character itself is not a chariot or a monster or a monstrous beast so the character is still affected by killing blow.
This is all based on very solid rational since in reality you would have to be able to say that the character in question would be similar to an ogre or troll model , which in the cases of Archaon, Tyrion and Fay would be ridiculous.
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Kraytirous
Exalted Guardian
Not to mention, if Archaon, Tyrion or Fay were actually Monstrous Cavalry, they would not be mountable, therefore the model would be completely illegal in terms of gameplay and Archaon would need to run around on foot.
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Alric
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Warrior of the Chamber
Kraytirous
Apr 25 2011, 10:58 PM
Not to mention, if Archaon, Tyrion or Fay were actually Monstrous Cavalry, they would not be mountable, therefore the model would be completely illegal in terms of gameplay and Archaon would need to run around on foot.

Yes , or as a friend of mine jokingly pointed out "They would be carrying their mounts instead of their mounts carrying them."
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chiram
The Chosen
Alric
Apr 25 2011, 05:36 PM
Benaiah
Apr 20 2011, 02:01 AM
Firstly I want to ask is Archaon monstrous cavalry.  Everything I can see states that he is... but cavalry is defined in the main rulebook as having 1 wound mounts...

Next question.  Is Archaon effected by killing blow?  Per the FAQ characters on monstrous mounts can still be effected by killing blow.  This was supposedly determined over an argument involving someone killing blow/instant KO'ing skulltaker off his jugger. 

The opposing argument states that since Archaon doesn't have the option to upgrade to a monstrous mount (like a few other characters) they would not fall under this category and count as monstrous cavalry as stated in the main rulebook.  And because of this they would be immune to killing blow.

Any ideas?    :wacko:

There was a really good discussion about this on Warseer that I would link but since Warseer is now a hackers paradise I wont do that.

The basic argument ended with Archaon and other special charaters , Fay Enchantress , and Tyrion beng affected by killing blow as the FAQ states.

I copy and pasted some of the post for reference. The short version is this.

The FAQ ...
Q: Does Killing Blow work against a mounted character regardless
of what he is mounted on? (p72)
A: Yes, as long as the character would count as an infantry
model if it wasn’t mounted.

Basically the FAQ states that a characters is affected by killing blow regardless of what he is riding as long as the character would count as infantry model if he wasnt mounted.

Some people fail to recognize that the word regardless means no matter what or in other words it doesnt matter what the character is riding.
Also some people dont understand the meaning of the second part of the FAQ which is a phrase thats states a conditional statement that literaly allows you to imagine what the character would be unmounted.

So what the FAQ is telling the player to do is imagine if the character would be an infantry model and if so then yes it would be affected by killing blow.

One very bright poster stated that he has all the models in question and is able to take each them off their mount and they are indeed the same as an infantry model.

I have the Archaon model from Games Day 2004 and he does come with the infantry 20mm base btw.

The back forth arguments were.
1) But the character is not listed in the rule book as "infantry" troop type - The FAQ doesnt refer to or base its answer on the troop type listings it only tells the player to imgaine if it would be an infantry model.

2)The FAQ doesnt say imagine what the model would be - Actually thats exactly what the answer in the FAQ says do , its called a "present unreal conditional" statement.

3)But the character and rider can not both be attacked/targeted seperately - The FAQ doesnt require the mount to be targeted seperately only the character need be targetable.

4)But the Charater is troop type MC and MC cant be afftected by killing blow - Not according to the FAQ since the character gets it MC from being on a mount and the FAQ tells the player to ignore the mount.

5)But its an FAQ and FAQ's cant change rules - Technically its not changing the rules since according to the rules infantry is affected by killing blow. The FAQ is clarifying the fact that a character infantry model on a mount is still an infantry model vs. killing blow.


After a discussion with some WHFB players at our gaming club we surmized that there was a percieved aberration that came about with the new rules for characters with mounts and troop types that contradicted with the rules for Killing Blow.
Since according to the rules a character takes on the troop type of his mount (ie: monster/chariot/MC) but the character itself is not a chariot or a monster or a monstrous beast then its still is affected by killing blow.
This is all based on very solid rational since in reality you would have to be able to say that the character in question would be similar to an ogre or troll model , which in the cases of Archaon, Tyrion and Fay would be ridiculous.

yes but then again it seems silly that a guy who lorewise is blessed by all the gods and costs more then any other character in our book is less protected against that then a khollek or some other characters.

Some blessing of the dark gods that is :P
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Kraytirous
Exalted Guardian
His blessing takes the shape of MR 2, being a Wizard of arguably the best lore in our book, everyone being at -1 to hit in combat and in shooting and having an 18" leadership. Being WS 9 is just him being awesome, along with the artifacts he has, which are all just results of his awesomeness in actually finding them.

And the reason Kholek is immune to killing blow isn't because he's blessed by the Dark Gods. Its because his neck is thicker then Archaon's torso. That's like saying "Why can't I chop this 100 year old oak as easily as this 5 year old tree?" It'll take more then one axe chop to cut through that monster's trunk. :D
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chiram
The Chosen
Kraytirous
Apr 27 2011, 04:00 AM
His blessing takes the shape of MR 2, being a Wizard of arguably the best lore in our book, everyone being at -1 to hit in combat and in shooting and having an 18" leadership. Being WS 9 is just him being awesome, along with the artifacts he has, which are all just results of his awesomeness in actually finding them.

And the reason Kholek is immune to killing blow isn't because he's blessed by the Dark Gods. Its because his neck is thicker then Archaon's torso. That's like saying "Why can't I chop this 100 year old oak as easily as this 5 year old tree?" It'll take more then one axe chop to cut through that monster's trunk. :D

yes but kholek hasen't got some ancient much praised magic chaos armor whiw archaon does have.
so why is that armor so much wanted if it isn't all that good? :s

don't get me wrong about this but for his points costs i think he should get the immunity
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