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Archaon; Questions
Topic Started: Apr 20 2011, 02:01 AM (1,588 Views)
Alric
Member Avatar
Warrior of the Chamber
chiram
Apr 27 2011, 01:56 PM
Kraytirous
Apr 27 2011, 04:00 AM
His blessing takes the shape of MR 2, being a Wizard of arguably the best lore in our book, everyone being at -1 to hit in combat and in shooting and having an 18" leadership. Being WS 9 is just him being awesome, along with the artifacts he has, which are all just results of his awesomeness in actually finding them.

And the reason Kholek is immune to killing blow isn't because he's blessed by the Dark Gods. Its because his neck is thicker then Archaon's torso. That's like saying "Why can't I chop this 100 year old oak as easily as this 5 year old tree?" It'll take more then one axe chop to cut through that monster's trunk. :D

yes but kholek hasen't got some ancient much praised magic chaos armor whiw archaon does have.
so why is that armor so much wanted if it isn't all that good? :s

don't get me wrong about this but for his points costs i think he should get the immunity

So by this you mean to say that killing blow should be based on armor and point cost ?
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Kraytirous
Exalted Guardian
Everyone needs to have an Achillese heel. And even Archaon, do remember, has a 3+ ward save against Killing Blows, unlike Tirion who only has a 4+. And the only time anyone will even get to attack Archaon is if they survive to do so. Don't under estimate just how powerful he is in close combat.
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Krakanrock
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Exalted Guardian
Not to mention he's still farily vulnerable to Malekith w/ his magic item eating sword. Haven't had that matchup my self yet, but I can see Archaon really having trouble: first round loses Slayer of Kings, second round loses Armor of Morkar. At least he'll always have his 3++ from the Eye.
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chiram
The Chosen
Alric
Apr 27 2011, 05:09 PM
chiram
Apr 27 2011, 01:56 PM
Kraytirous
Apr 27 2011, 04:00 AM
His blessing takes the shape of MR 2, being a Wizard of arguably the best lore in our book, everyone being at -1 to hit in combat and in shooting and having an 18" leadership. Being WS 9 is just him being awesome, along with the artifacts he has, which are all just results of his awesomeness in actually finding them.

And the reason Kholek is immune to killing blow isn't because he's blessed by the Dark Gods. Its because his neck is thicker then Archaon's torso. That's like saying "Why can't I chop this 100 year old oak as easily as this 5 year old tree?" It'll take more then one axe chop to cut through that monster's trunk. :D

yes but kholek hasen't got some ancient much praised magic chaos armor whiw archaon does have.
so why is that armor so much wanted if it isn't all that good? :s

don't get me wrong about this but for his points costs i think he should get the immunity

So by this you mean to say that killing blow should be based on armor and point cost ?

i mean for 685 points ( being one of the most exspensive chars in the game ) he might just recieve that extra bit of protection yes :D
and i know he's hard to kill but it kinda struggles with the entire lore behind arhaon IMO
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Kraytirous
Exalted Guardian
How so? Archaon was always brutally powerful and intelligent, no one ever said he had a neck forged from steel! No one is indestructable. And there are many instances where Lore doesn't stand up to Warhammer rules. Its balance before fluff. Otherwise Teclis would just roll a die and destroy an entire army, Malekith could kill a Shaggoth with a flick of his wrist. Gotrek would be unkillable and his axe would literally kill everything in his path.

Even in 40k, a Space Marine would be able to take an entire Guard regiment on without flinching.
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Alric
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Warrior of the Chamber
chiram
Apr 28 2011, 06:23 AM
Alric
Apr 27 2011, 05:09 PM
chiram
Apr 27 2011, 01:56 PM
Kraytirous
Apr 27 2011, 04:00 AM
His blessing takes the shape of MR 2, being a Wizard of arguably the best lore in our book, everyone being at -1 to hit in combat and in shooting and having an 18" leadership. Being WS 9 is just him being awesome, along with the artifacts he has, which are all just results of his awesomeness in actually finding them.

And the reason Kholek is immune to killing blow isn't because he's blessed by the Dark Gods. Its because his neck is thicker then Archaon's torso. That's like saying "Why can't I chop this 100 year old oak as easily as this 5 year old tree?" It'll take more then one axe chop to cut through that monster's trunk. :D

yes but kholek hasen't got some ancient much praised magic chaos armor whiw archaon does have.
so why is that armor so much wanted if it isn't all that good? :s

don't get me wrong about this but for his points costs i think he should get the immunity

So by this you mean to say that killing blow should be based on armor and point cost ?

i mean for 685 points ( being one of the most exspensive chars in the game ) he might just recieve that extra bit of protection yes :D
and i know he's hard to kill but it kinda struggles with the entire lore behind arhaon IMO

So according to you any Chaos/Sorcerer Lord on a Dragon (700+ points model) is immune to everything else because they cost a lot of points.
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chiram
The Chosen
Alric
Apr 28 2011, 10:47 AM
chiram
Apr 28 2011, 06:23 AM
Alric
Apr 27 2011, 05:09 PM
chiram
Apr 27 2011, 01:56 PM
Kraytirous
Apr 27 2011, 04:00 AM
His blessing takes the shape of MR 2, being a Wizard of arguably the best lore in our book, everyone being at -1 to hit in combat and in shooting and having an 18" leadership. Being WS 9 is just him being awesome, along with the artifacts he has, which are all just results of his awesomeness in actually finding them.

And the reason Kholek is immune to killing blow isn't because he's blessed by the Dark Gods. Its because his neck is thicker then Archaon's torso. That's like saying "Why can't I chop this 100 year old oak as easily as this 5 year old tree?" It'll take more then one axe chop to cut through that monster's trunk. :D

yes but kholek hasen't got some ancient much praised magic chaos armor whiw archaon does have.
so why is that armor so much wanted if it isn't all that good? :s

don't get me wrong about this but for his points costs i think he should get the immunity

So by this you mean to say that killing blow should be based on armor and point cost ?

i mean for 685 points ( being one of the most exspensive chars in the game ) he might just recieve that extra bit of protection yes :D
and i know he's hard to kill but it kinda struggles with the entire lore behind arhaon IMO

So according to you any Chaos/Sorcerer Lord on a Dragon (700+ points model) is immune to everything else because they cost a lot of points.

no but they have a dragon of 360pts archaon sits on a horse , there isn't really a comparison there.
i was just pointing out that lorewise he has the best of the best equipment to find in chaos lands and they need 4 heroes of diffrent armies to put him down.
but yet one dude with killing blow just owns him.

Idunno about you guys but i can't relate to that point , something about it doesn't feel right.
it should be heroic killing blow cause lets face it , its quite heroic if you can down archaon :P
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Benaiah
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The Chosen
Benaiah
Apr 21 2011, 02:08 AM
I called GW and we figured this out.

No, the mount cannot be killed separately.

No, he is not vulnerable to killing blow.  The bestiary says he is monstrous cavalry so no, he cannot be killed by killing blow (though he is vulnerable to heroic killing blow as would be expected).

I just want to bring this up and quote myself... I called GW to get their insight to this problem... This is per raw of coarse which would be appropriate for tournament play....
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Godless-Mimicry
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No' 9

Benaiah
Apr 28 2011, 10:51 AM
Benaiah
Apr 21 2011, 02:08 AM
I called GW and we figured this out.

No, the mount cannot be killed separately.

No, he is not vulnerable to killing blow.  The bestiary says he is monstrous cavalry so no, he cannot be killed by killing blow (though he is vulnerable to heroic killing blow as would be expected).

I just want to bring this up and quote myself... I called GW to get their insight to this problem... This is per raw of coarse which would be appropriate for tournament play....

You ould have saved yourself the call money and downloaded the free FAQ which clears the issue up very nicely.
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Alric
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Warrior of the Chamber
Benaiah
Apr 28 2011, 06:51 PM
Benaiah
Apr 21 2011, 02:08 AM
I called GW and we figured this out.

No, the mount cannot be killed separately.

No, he is not vulnerable to killing blow.  The bestiary says he is monstrous cavalry so no, he cannot be killed by killing blow (though he is vulnerable to heroic killing blow as would be expected).

I just want to bring this up and quote myself... I called GW to get their insight to this problem... This is per raw of coarse which would be appropriate for tournament play....

This is odd because when we called GW from our gaming club , which is at our local Hobby Town USA shop , about this we asked if the killing blow FAQ applied to Archaon and other special characters that are MC but have no troop type listed for an infantry model.

GW staffer said that the killing blow FAQ applied to all character MC type models including special characters like Archaon. The GW staffer said that the FAQ means they were all considered infantry models vs. killing blow
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Benaiah
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The Chosen
What I was told is that the FAQ was to help clarify for units such as Skulltaker which can be mounted on a Juggernaught, which would then make them monstrous cavalry. The FAQ tells us that the killing blow rule still applies to them since they are listed as infantry in the bestiary. However, since Archaon is monstrous cavalry in the bestiary he is immune as that IS his unit type and he is not an infantry model posing as monstrous cavalry.

If the FAQ were saying that Archaon would be vulnerable to killing blow then logically a bloodcrusher would have to be as well. The are the same type of unit... Therefore we can conclude that units that START as monstrous cavalry are immune from the killing blow rule.
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Alric
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Warrior of the Chamber
Benaiah
Apr 29 2011, 12:42 PM
What I was told is that the FAQ was to help clarify for units such as Skulltaker which can be mounted on a Juggernaught, which would then make them monstrous cavalry.  The FAQ tells us that the killing blow rule still applies to them since they are listed as infantry in the bestiary.  However, since Archaon is monstrous cavalry in the bestiary he is immune as that IS his unit type and he is not an infantry model posing as monstrous cavalry.

If the FAQ were saying that Archaon would be vulnerable to killing blow then logically a bloodcrusher would have to be as well.  The are the same type of unit... Therefore we can conclude that units that START as monstrous cavalry are immune from the killing blow rule.

Except that both your points are not mentioned in that FAQ.
First as stated earlier there is no provision in the FAQ that it only applies to models that have an infantry listing in the bestairy.The only qualifier in the FAQ is that the character "would count as an infantry model if it wasnt mounted". Second your assertion that the FAQ would extend to all MC models is pure assumption since this is not stated in the FAQ , the FAQ is very clear in its language that it only applies to characters models.

The arguments you raise were covered already in an earlier post so before this starts to go in circles I'll do as you did and re-state.

1) But the character is not listed in the rule book as "infantry" troop type - The FAQ doesnt refer to or base its answer on the troop type listings it only tells the player to imgaine if it would be an infantry model.

2)But the FAQ doesnt say imagine what the model would be - Actually thats exactly what the answer in the FAQ says do , its called a "present unreal conditional" statement.

3)But the character and rider can not both be attacked/targeted seperately - The FAQ doesnt require the mount to be targeted seperately only the character need be targetable.

4)But the Charater is troop type MC and MC cant be afftected by killing blow - Not according to the FAQ since the character gets it MC from being on a mount and the FAQ tells the player to ignore the mount.

5)But its an FAQ and FAQ's cant change rules - Technically its not changing the rules since according to the rules infantry is affected by killing blow. The FAQ is clarifying the fact that a character infantry model on a mount is still an infantry model vs. killing blow.


After a discussion with some WHFB players at our gaming club we surmized that there was a percieved aberration that came about with the new rules for characters with mounts and troop types that contradicted with the rules for Killing Blow.
According to the rules a character takes on the troop type of his mount (ie: monster/chariot/MC) but the character itself is not a chariot or a monster or a monstrous beast so the character is still affected by killing blow.
This is all based on very solid rational since in reality you would have to be able to say that the character in question would be similar to an ogre or troll model , which in the cases of Archaon, Tyrion and Fay would be ridiculous.


This is what the GW staff member meant when he said that its still considered and infantry model vs. killing blow.

I pulled this from an earlier post in this thread where I quoted your OP. If you have some good constructive comments to add to this and the other post that followed my original post in this thread please offer them. I do want to avoid a bit by bit reconstruction of every argument and counter argrument that has already been made though.
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chiram
The Chosen
well i went to the GW in Ghent and Antwerp and they both confirmed that archaon starts of as MC and so i immune to killing blow but heroic can kill him though.
maybe everyone here should contact there GW staff in the neighberhood and we should make a count of which GW says what and then count it up :P
the one with the most votes wins :P

i know it sounds kinda silly but it seems that even in GW the oppinions seem divided so lets do it the democratical way and vote for it ( by opinions of gw staff lol )
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Alric
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Warrior of the Chamber
chiram
Apr 29 2011, 02:16 PM
well i went to the GW in Ghent and Antwerp and they both confirmed that archaon starts of as MC and so i immune to killing blow but heroic can kill him though.
maybe everyone here should contact there GW staff in the neighberhood and we should make a count of which GW says what and then count it up :P
the one with the most votes wins :P

i know it sounds kinda silly but it seems that even in GW the oppinions seem divided so lets do it the democratical way and vote for it ( by opinions of gw staff lol )

Speaking for myself I didnt comment on the subject of this thread to just simply relate what a GW staff member said about the killing blow FAQ , but to present the rational behind the GW staffs explanation of the Killing Blow FAQ and how the FAQ applies to special characters.

To suggest that a consensus could be reached based on just the GW staff experience by the present posters in this thread would be to insufficient to consider an would be an obvious attempt to ignore any rational explanation of the FAQ and avoiding discussion.
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chiram
The Chosen
indeed cause the discussion isn't really going anywhere so lets just ask the ppl who work for the company that makes the rules.
That way the respons given can be given back to them in feedback and may even reach the ppl who wrote the rules thus enlarging the fact that it will be better described in the next faq.

I thuink that if about 40-80 Gw shops recieve the same questions that they are kinda forced to look into to the whole rule en clear it up a bit.
plus while waiting for that we can have fun by anoying their staff more and not throwing ourselves in each others hairs cause none of us know the exact answer.

for everyone here is from a different place , has a different gaming club and different way of thinking.
and every club or everyone can interpret the rules diffrently all we can do is speculate about things that aren't really clear to everyone the only ones who can really explain what is meant with it are the ppl who wrote it.
And i don't really think that person is enlisted on this forum so the ony logical thing to do is try to make sure that the conflict reaches his ears so it might be cleared out at the next Faq's
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