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Archaon; Questions
Topic Started: Apr 20 2011, 02:01 AM (1,587 Views)
PrinceofPleasure
The Chosen
I have 4 local gw staffers 1 the mngr does play any of the games 2 only play 40k should I ask them. Having previously worked for GW does this now give me a divine right to rules arbitrations?

Or can we just assume like most gamers most staffers don't know crap, and make an educated decision for ourselves.
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chiram
The Chosen
hmm i do wonder if anyone failed to see the joke/sarcasm in my last post?
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Alric
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Warrior of the Chamber
PrinceofPleasure
Apr 29 2011, 08:48 PM
I have 4 local gw staffers 1 the mngr does play any of the games 2 only play 40k should I ask them. Having previously worked for GW does this now give me a divine right to rules arbitrations?

Or can we just assume like most gamers most staffers don't know crap, and make an educated decision for ourselves.

You mean like an actual discussion where players offer cogent explanations for their statements and debate ?

Ok well I'll start with a summary of whats been said so far.

For the "Yes" Archaon and other special characters are affected by killing blow side - Because thats what the killing blow FAQ says.

For the "No" Archaon and other special characters are not affected by kiling blow side - Because Archaon cost to many points.

This is about as far as this discussion has gone , all GW staff commnets aside.

FAQ vs. cost to many points.
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Benaiah
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The Chosen
Alric
Apr 30 2011, 11:28 AM
PrinceofPleasure
Apr 29 2011, 08:48 PM
I have 4 local gw staffers 1 the mngr does play any of the games 2 only play 40k should I ask them. Having previously worked for GW does this now give me a divine right to rules arbitrations?

Or can we just assume like most gamers most staffers don't know crap, and make an educated decision for ourselves.

You mean like an actual discussion where players offer cogent explanations for their statements and debate ?

Ok well I'll start with a summary of whats been said so far.

For the "Yes" Archaon and other special characters are affected by killing blow side - Because thats what the killing blow FAQ says.

For the "No" Archaon and other special characters are not affected by kiling blow side - Because Archaon cost to many points.

This is about as far as this discussion has gone , all GW staff commnets aside.

FAQ vs. cost to many points.

That isn't an accurate summary at all. The FAQ suggests characters that were made into monstrous cavalry by being changed. Such as any infantry character (for instance Skulltaker) who is put on a monstrous mount (for instance a jugger). Archaon and other such characters actually are monstrous cavalry because they come on the mount and it isn't an option for them.

Saying they're vulnerable to killing blow is like saying a pegasus knight or a bloodcrusher should be vulnerable to killing blow. They are monstrous cavalry but would otherwise be regular, rank and file infantry soldiers. They are monstrous cavalry and therefore should be treated as such.

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Alric
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Warrior of the Chamber
Benaiah
May 3 2011, 02:40 PM
Alric
Apr 30 2011, 11:28 AM
PrinceofPleasure
Apr 29 2011, 08:48 PM
I have 4 local gw staffers 1 the mngr does play any of the games 2 only play 40k should I ask them. Having previously worked for GW does this now give me a divine right to rules arbitrations?

Or can we just assume like most gamers most staffers don't know crap, and make an educated decision for ourselves.

You mean like an actual discussion where players offer cogent explanations for their statements and debate ?

Ok well I'll start with a summary of whats been said so far.

For the "Yes" Archaon and other special characters are affected by killing blow side - Because thats what the killing blow FAQ says.

For the "No" Archaon and other special characters are not affected by kiling blow side - Because Archaon cost to many points.

This is about as far as this discussion has gone , all GW staff commnets aside.

FAQ vs. cost to many points.

That isn't an accurate summary at all. The FAQ suggests characters that were made into monstrous cavalry by being changed. Such as any infantry character (for instance Skulltaker) who is put on a monstrous mount (for instance a jugger). Archaon and other such characters actually are monstrous cavalry because they come on the mount and it isn't an option for them.

Saying they're vulnerable to killing blow is like saying a pegasus knight or a bloodcrusher should be vulnerable to killing blow. They are monstrous cavalry but would otherwise be regular, rank and file infantry soldiers. They are monstrous cavalry and therefore should be treated as such.

No you are not putting things in their proper context.

First we are talking about the "Killing Blow" FAQ which specifically applies to only characters on mounts.

"The FAQ ...
Q: Does Killing Blow work against a mounted character regardless
of what he is mounted on? (p72)
A: Yes, as long as the character would count as an infantry
model if it wasn’t mounted."

Secondly there's nothing at all in the FAQ that limits it to a specific group of mounted characters , or Skulltaker or any other specific mounted character model. The language used in the FAQ is worded to include ANY character on a mount with no exceptions.

Also as already stated there is no basis for claims that it would apply to non character models , that is made absolutely crystal clear by the wording used in the FAQ.

According to the FAQ the only requirement that the mounted character model in question has to meet is "as long as the character would count as an infantry model if it wasn't mounted." and this applies to ANY mounted character model.
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Benaiah
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The Chosen
Logically speaking, why would it apply to Archaon, the Fay Entrantress or any other such character by suseptable to killing blow if a LESSER counterpart such as a bloodcrusher or pegasus knight would not be? It makes no rational sense.

Also, according to the RAW we have no way of knowing for certain which type of unit any of those characters would be counted as if they were not originally mounted on their monstrous mounts as it is not documented. Archaon is a big guy, what's to say he wasn't meant to be on an ogre sized base if he wasn't on his horse, with his mighty 4 wounds, strength and toughness 5 and almighty blessings of the gods?


Personally he sounds more monstrous to me than any other monstrous infantry in the game (Brass Bull aside).
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Alric
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Warrior of the Chamber
Benaiah
May 4 2011, 03:53 PM
Logically speaking, why would it apply to Archaon, the Fay Entrantress or any other such character by suseptable to killing blow if a LESSER counterpart such as a bloodcrusher or pegasus knight would not be?  It makes no rational sense.

Also, according to the RAW we have no way of knowing for certain which type of unit any of those characters would be counted as if they were not originally mounted on their monstrous mounts as it is not documented.  Archaon is a big guy, what's to say he wasn't meant to be on an ogre sized base if he wasn't on his horse, with his mighty 4 wounds, strength and toughness 5 and almighty blessings of the gods?


Personally he sounds more monstrous to me than any other monstrous infantry in the game (Brass Bull aside).

Theres nothing logical about what you are saying. All your arguments are based on assumptions which makes them invalid. Since the FAQ specifically singles out mounted character models only then from that we know that it applies to any mounted character and since it only address mounted character models then there is no bases to apply it to non character models.

Also your comparison of "LESSER" models is so illogical and ill-concieved that it is utterly ridiculous to even consider and is filled with contradictions, or have you forgotten all those standard character models that can ride a daemonic steed or juggernaut or skulltaker or are you now saying that NO character monstrous cavalry models can be affected by killing blow?


The arguments you raise have all been brought up before have been put down in this thread as well as other forums.

1) But the character is not listed in the rule book as "infantry" troop type - The FAQ doesnt refer to or base its answer on the troop type listings it only tells the player to imgaine if it would be an infantry model.

2)But the FAQ doesnt say imagine what the model would be - Actually thats exactly what the answer in the FAQ says do , its called a "present unreal conditional" statement.

According to the rules a character takes on the troop type of his mount (ie: monster/chariot/MC) but the character itself is not a chariot or a monster or a monstrous beast so the character is still affected by killing blow.

The FAQ is very simply stated , its only 2 sentences and it very clear and simple in its meaning. Any mounted character is affected by killing blow as long as he would count as infantry model if he wasn't mounted. The mounted character models in question (Archaon, Fay , Tyrion) would all obviously be an infantry model if they weren't mounted.

Obviously GW thinks that most players are able to tell the difference in an Ogre or Troll monstrous infantry model and a normal infantry model. Otherwise you would have to say that the character in question would be similar to an ogre or troll model , which in the cases of Archaon, Tyrion and Fay would be ridiculous.

FYI GW did make an Archaon on foot model made for Games Day 2004 and it comes with a infantry base so theres all the proof you need as to what GW thinks Archaon " would be if he wasn't mounted."

I dont see how you can not understand this its all very simple and to continue to dispute this and try to create invalid arguments based on false assumptions is simply ignoring what the FAQ states.

From my gaming experience the idea that special characters like Archaon , Tyrion , and Fay are not included in the FAQ is an interent myth since I have yet to meet a player that thought the FAQ didnt include them.
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sometimesafish
The Chosen
You all clearly have different opinions, and that is normal. Fortunatly you don't ever play each other.


/thread
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Benaiah
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The Chosen
I'd like to quote you:

"FYI GW did make an Archaon on foot model made for Games Day 2004 and it comes with a infantry base so theres all the proof you need as to what GW thinks Archaon " would be if he wasn't mounted.""

I actually own the Archaon model on foot. I also would like to note that the model came with an ogre sized base. I believe that ends the discussion. Research it if you must, but it came to me sealed with an ogre sized base.

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Krakanrock
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Exalted Guardian
Benaiah
May 5 2011, 01:07 AM
I actually own the Archaon model on foot. I also would like to note that the model came with an ogre sized base. I believe that ends the discussion. Research it if you must, but it came to me sealed with an ogre sized base.

I've got 3 of the Archaon on foot and not a single one came on a 40mm base. They all came w/ a 25mm angled slotta-base. The only "infantry sized" character model that I've ever seen come w/ a 40mm base was the special edition Harry the Hammerer model.
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chiram
The Chosen
Krakanrock
May 5 2011, 03:53 AM
Benaiah
May 5 2011, 01:07 AM
I actually own the Archaon model on foot.  I also would like to note that the model came with an ogre sized base.  I believe that ends the discussion.  Research it if you must, but it came to me sealed with an ogre sized base.

I've got 3 of the Archaon on foot and not a single one came on a 40mm base. They all came w/ a 25mm angled slotta-base. The only "infantry sized" character model that I've ever seen come w/ a 40mm base was the special edition Harry the Hammerer model.

mine came with an ogre sized aswell to be honest aswell as most of the ppl in my club who own the model.
i think only one of us has it on a infantery sized base.
but heyt guys its GW who knows what they where smoking at the time they made it.
plus as you all sayd they used to have a model of archaon on foot you can't buy it anymore.
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Alric
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Warrior of the Chamber
Benaiah
May 5 2011, 01:07 AM
I'd like to quote you:

"FYI GW did make an Archaon on foot model made for Games Day 2004 and it comes with a infantry base so theres all the proof you need as to what GW thinks Archaon " would be if he wasn't mounted.""

I actually own the Archaon model on foot.  I also would like to note that the model came with an ogre sized base.  I believe that ends the discussion.  Research it if you must, but it came to me sealed with an ogre sized base.



I know about those models with the 40mm bases they come with the Chinese forgeries I hope you didnt pay to much for your recast.

The authentic GW Games Day 2004 Archaon is on an infantry base as shown in this photo of an Authentic Games Day 2004 Archaon Infantry model nib.

That picture shows that Archaon comes on the standard infantry model 25mm base that GW uses for most of their Chaos Army infantry models. Its the same 25mm base that Skulltaker comes with.

Now if I thought that all that needed to be done to prove my point was to link a photo of an authentic nib 2004 Games Day mini I would have done it sooner. So there now it is settled - Archaon would count as an infantry model case closed.

For the rest of the world that relies on the rules -

The FAQ tells players that any character on a mount is affected by killing blow as long as the character would count as infantry model if it wasn't mounted. And if you are still unsure try to find an authentic GW model nib , not a recast.
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chiram
The Chosen
Alric
May 5 2011, 11:51 AM
Benaiah
May 5 2011, 01:07 AM
I'd like to quote you:

"FYI GW did make an Archaon on foot model made for Games Day 2004 and it comes with a infantry base so theres all the proof you need as to what GW thinks Archaon " would be if he wasn't mounted.""

I actually own the Archaon model on foot.  I also would like to note that the model came with an ogre sized base.  I believe that ends the discussion.  Research it if you must, but it came to me sealed with an ogre sized base.



I know about those models with the 40mm bases they come with the Chinese forgeries I hope you didnt pay to much for your recast.

The authentic GW Games Day 2004 Archaon is on an infantry base as shown in this photo of an Authentic Games Day 2004 Archaon Infantry model nib.

That picture shows that Archaon comes on the standard infantry model bases that GW uses for most of their Chaos Army infantry models. Its the same base that Skulltaker comes with.

Now if I thought that all that needed to be done to prove my point was to link a photo of an authentic nib 2004 Games Day mini I would have done it sooner. So there now it is settled - Archaon would count as an infantry model case closed.

For the rest of the world that relies on the rules -

The FAQ tells players that any character on a mount is affected by killing blow as long as the character would count as infantry model if it wasn't mounted. And if you are still unsure try to find an authentic GW model nib , not a recast.

maybe stupid point here but we ( me and other chaos players in my club ) got ours at gamesday so why would GW sell forgeries of their own stuff there?
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Alric
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Warrior of the Chamber
chiram
May 5 2011, 12:14 PM
Alric
May 5 2011, 11:51 AM
Benaiah
May 5 2011, 01:07 AM
I'd like to quote you:

"FYI GW did make an Archaon on foot model made for Games Day 2004 and it comes with a infantry base so theres all the proof you need as to what GW thinks Archaon " would be if he wasn't mounted.""

I actually own the Archaon model on foot.  I also would like to note that the model came with an ogre sized base.  I believe that ends the discussion.  Research it if you must, but it came to me sealed with an ogre sized base.



I know about those models with the 40mm bases they come with the Chinese forgeries I hope you didnt pay to much for your recast.

The authentic GW Games Day 2004 Archaon is on an infantry base as shown in this photo of an Authentic Games Day 2004 Archaon Infantry model nib.

That picture shows that Archaon comes on the standard infantry model bases that GW uses for most of their Chaos Army infantry models. Its the same base that Skulltaker comes with.

Now if I thought that all that needed to be done to prove my point was to link a photo of an authentic nib 2004 Games Day mini I would have done it sooner. So there now it is settled - Archaon would count as an infantry model case closed.

For the rest of the world that relies on the rules -

The FAQ tells players that any character on a mount is affected by killing blow as long as the character would count as infantry model if it wasn't mounted. And if you are still unsure try to find an authentic GW model nib , not a recast.

maybe stupid point here but we ( me and other chaos players in my club ) got ours at gamesday so why would GW sell forgeries of their own stuff there?

Which is why I provided a link to a photo of the Games Day mini "new in box" (nib) - if you looked at it you would see that it is a 25mm infantry base.

If you disagree then post a link to a trusted GW mini website of a photo of this Games Day 2004 Archaon on foot with a 40mm base "new in box" to show that its not just another internet myth. Until then the reality is there is only the 25mm infantry based Games Day 2004 Archaon on foot GW model.

Also as you expertly overlooked my point is its not just the photo but the rules that tell us that Archaon would be infantry model and would be affected by killing blow.

P.S.
I did google for the images before I posted my last reply and there isnt a Archaon on foot with a 40mm base nib only 25mm bases, but go ahead and look for yourself anyway.
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Benaiah
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The Chosen
That was not my basis for my argument, it was just a strong point that apparently some people agree with.

Reasons for no pictures showing up on google images may include:
-The NIB pictures appear to be mostly the same picture showing up in different places
-The not NIB pictures don't appear for a 40mm based archaon due to his lack of rules, therefore why would anyone want him on a 40mm base unless for showcase purposes as 40mm would be illegal to use as a standin for another Chaos lord.


I'd also like to point out a few facts.

#1 - FAQ's cannot change rules.

#2 - Archaon is listed as a monstrous creature in the rulebook.

#3 - His mount is not given a mount type in the rulebook.

#4 - Morthai is listed as infantry AND she is the same as Archaon in that she comes mounted on her mount (which is a dark pegasus (same base size/mount size as archaons mount in theory))

#5 - Morthai's mount has the MB unit type.

My point is this. According to RAW, yes RAW, Archaon cannot be killed instantly by killing blow because he is a monstrous cavalry model. The rules state that monstrous cavalry cannot be killed by killing blow. Infantry characters that are put on a monstrous beast do not become monstrous cavalry, they simply gain the benefits - therefore they are not immune to killing blow as they are not classified as monstrous cavalry.

In summary the rules state this:

FAQ's can't change rules, only clarify. The rules state that Archaon is monstrous cavalry because he's listed as that in the bestiary in the rulebook. Therefore nothing changes what Archaon is.

Any interpretation that would imply that Archaon is subject to killing blow is simply house rules, which is fine. B)
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