Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to The Chamber of the Everchosen. We hope you enjoy your visit!


Here at COTEC we are all about the Warriors of Chaos in Warhammer Fantasy Battle.

Tactics to help you slaughter your opponent on the tabletop, through to galleries on how to build your next Warshrine. Its all covered... and growing!

We are a forum for gamers and hobbyist alike and again would like to welcome you to a fun, friendly, warm place and hope to see you again!


Join our legion! Takes less than a minute and gives you access to everything!


If you're already a member please log in to your account by entering the correct runes and words of power:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Archaon; Questions
Topic Started: Apr 20 2011, 02:01 AM (1,585 Views)
Alric
Member Avatar
Warrior of the Chamber
Benaiah
May 5 2011, 03:27 PM
That was not my basis for my argument, it was just a strong point that apparently some people agree with.

Reasons for no pictures showing up on google images may include:
-The NIB pictures appear to be mostly the same picture showing up in different places
-The not NIB pictures don't appear for a 40mm based archaon due to his lack of rules, therefore why would anyone want him on a 40mm base unless for showcase purposes as 40mm would be illegal to use as a standin for another Chaos lord.


I'd also like to point out a few facts.

#1 - FAQ's cannot change rules.

#2 - Archaon is listed as a monstrous creature in the rulebook.

#3 - His mount is not given a mount type in the rulebook.

#4 - Morthai is listed as infantry AND she is the same as Archaon in that she comes mounted on her mount (which is a dark pegasus (same base size/mount size as archaons mount in theory))

#5 - Morthai's mount has the MB unit type.

My point is this.  According to RAW, yes RAW, Archaon cannot be killed instantly by killing blow because he is a monstrous cavalry model.  The rules state that monstrous cavalry cannot be killed by killing blow.  Infantry characters that are put on a monstrous beast do not become monstrous cavalry, they simply gain the benefits - therefore they are not immune to killing blow as they are not classified as monstrous cavalry.

In summary the rules state this:

FAQ's can't change rules, only clarify.  The rules state that Archaon is monstrous cavalry because he's listed as that in the bestiary in the rulebook.  Therefore nothing changes what Archaon is.

Any interpretation that would imply that Archaon is subject to killing blow is simply house rules, which is fine.    B)


Except it is you that is creating a house rule.

It has taken you three pages of post to finally reply to my original reply to your OP and as I mentioned before you have repeated all the invalid arguments that have been stated before as I figured you would.

The FAQ ...
Q: Does Killing Blow work against a mounted character regardless
of what he is mounted on? (p72)
A: Yes, as long as the character would count as an infantry
model if it wasn’t mounted.

The FAQ states that a character is affected by killing blow regardless of what he is riding as long as the character would count as infantry model if he wasnt mounted.

You fail to recognize that the word regardless means no matter what or in other words it doesnt matter what the character is riding.
Also you dont seem to understand the meaning of the second part of the FAQ which is a phrase thats states a conditional statement that literaly allows you to imagine what the character would be unmounted.

So what the FAQ is telling the player to do is ignore the mount and imagine if the character would be an infantry model w/o its mount and if so then yes it would be affected by killing blow.

The invalid arguments you use have all been debunked.

1) But the character is not listed in the rule book as "infantry" troop type - The FAQ doesnt refer to or base its answer on the troop type listings it only tells the player to imgaine if it would be an infantry model.

2)But the FAQ doesnt say imagine what the model would be - Actually thats exactly what the answer in the FAQ says do , its called a "present unreal conditional" statement.

3)But the character and rider can not both be attacked/targeted seperately - The FAQ doesnt require the mount to be targeted seperately only the character need be targetable.

4)But the Charater is troop type MC and MC cant be afftected by killing blow - Not according to the FAQ since the character gets it MC from being on a mount and the FAQ tells the player to ignore the mount.

5)But its an FAQ and FAQ's cant change rules - Technically its not changing the rules since according to the rules infantry is affected by killing blow. The FAQ is clarifying the fact that a character infantry model on a mount is still an infantry model vs. killing blow.

According to the rules a character takes on the troop type of his mount (ie: monster/chariot/MC) but the character itself is not a chariot or a monster or a monstrous beast but an infantry model still so the character is affected by killing blow.

This is all based on very solid rational since in reality you would have to be able to say that the character in question would be similar to an ogre or troll model aka a monstrous infantry model , which in the cases of Archaon would be ridiculous.

The fact is that according to the FAQ any character on a mount can be affected by killing blow as long as he would count as a infantry model if he wasn't mounted and as this photo of Archaon on foot proves that according to Games Workshop , et al , Archaon IS an infantry model when on foot.

Did I mention that the GW Archaon on foot model comes on a 25mm infantry base.
Click this link to see the Authentic Games Day 2004 Archaon Infantry model (nib) with a 25mm base.
Discussion over .. :rock:

P.S.
One other point that I have not mentioned before, that I have been saving , is that there is a basic illogical contradiction that those like yourself make in this discussion.
You state that the FAQ does tell us that characters on chariots , monsters and monstrous beast are affected by killing blow but that special characters like Archaon are not.
What you fail to realize is that the same conditions stated in that same FAQ that allow regular characters on mounts to be affected by killing blow ALSO apply to special characters. You cant logically state that regular character are affected and special charaters are not - because - there is NOTHING in the FAQ that distinguishes special characters from regular characters. This is the basic critical flaw in all your arguments. (plus the fact that the Archaon on foot model comes on a 25mm infantry base :))
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
chiram
The Chosen
Alric
May 5 2011, 12:34 PM
chiram
May 5 2011, 12:14 PM
Alric
May 5 2011, 11:51 AM
Benaiah
May 5 2011, 01:07 AM
I'd like to quote you:

"FYI GW did make an Archaon on foot model made for Games Day 2004 and it comes with a infantry base so theres all the proof you need as to what GW thinks Archaon " would be if he wasn't mounted.""

I actually own the Archaon model on foot.  I also would like to note that the model came with an ogre sized base.  I believe that ends the discussion.  Research it if you must, but it came to me sealed with an ogre sized base.



I know about those models with the 40mm bases they come with the Chinese forgeries I hope you didnt pay to much for your recast.

The authentic GW Games Day 2004 Archaon is on an infantry base as shown in this photo of an Authentic Games Day 2004 Archaon Infantry model nib.

That picture shows that Archaon comes on the standard infantry model bases that GW uses for most of their Chaos Army infantry models. Its the same base that Skulltaker comes with.

Now if I thought that all that needed to be done to prove my point was to link a photo of an authentic nib 2004 Games Day mini I would have done it sooner. So there now it is settled - Archaon would count as an infantry model case closed.

For the rest of the world that relies on the rules -

The FAQ tells players that any character on a mount is affected by killing blow as long as the character would count as infantry model if it wasn't mounted. And if you are still unsure try to find an authentic GW model nib , not a recast.

maybe stupid point here but we ( me and other chaos players in my club ) got ours at gamesday so why would GW sell forgeries of their own stuff there?

Which is why I provided a link to a photo of the Games Day mini "new in box" (nib) - if you looked at it you would see that it is a 25mm infantry base.

If you disagree then post a link to a trusted GW mini website of a photo of this Games Day 2004 Archaon on foot with a 40mm base "new in box" to show that its not just another internet myth. Until then the reality is there is only the 25mm infantry based Games Day 2004 Archaon on foot GW model.

Also as you expertly overlooked my point is its not just the photo but the rules that tell us that Archaon would be infantry model and would be affected by killing blow.

P.S.
I did google for the images before I posted my last reply and there isnt a Archaon on foot with a 40mm base nib only 25mm bases, but go ahead and look for yourself anyway.

well i know i also got an archaon on mount on a normal cavalery mount bet seeying as this one wasn't a collector i went to the GW and demanded a correct base and even got 25% back from the price :P
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Benaiah
Member Avatar
The Chosen
Except that he is not infantry. He is monstrous cavalry in the same way a bloodcrusher or pegasus knight is.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Create your own social network with a free forum.
« Previous Topic · Tactics · Next Topic »
Add Reply