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WoC vs. High Elves; How do you deal with no shooting?
Topic Started: Apr 21 2011, 11:37 AM (1,164 Views)
redarmy27
Slave
[ * ]
Hi all,
I’m a bit frustrated at the moment with my beloved Warriors of Chaos. I just can’t seem to win with them. I primarily play against a very good High Elf player. He’s always fun to play with and is incredibly helpful, but is very good. He has a tendency to tear through my Warriors like there is no tomorrow with his Elves. His shooting kills me.

His most recent list consisted of this:
2250 Pts - High Elves Roster
Archmage (Level 4 Upgrade; Hand Weapon)
1 Feedback Scroll

Prince (General; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon)
1 Bow of the Seafarer
1 Armour of Caledor

Noble (Battle Standard Bearer) ( Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Longbow; Dragon Armour; Battle Standard Bearer)
1 Razor Standard

49 Lothern Sea Guard, (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Bow; Spear; Light Armour; Shield)
1 Sea Master (Hand Weapon; Bow; Spear; Light Armour; Shield)
1 Banner of Eternal Flame

16 Sword Masters of Hoeth, (Always Strikes Last; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour)
1 Bladelord (Always Strikes Last; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour)
1 Wailing Banner

1 Lion Chariot of Chrace, (Swift Stride; Chariot)
2 Crew (Always Strikes Last; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon)
2 War Lions (Causes Fear)

1 Lion Chariot of Chrace, (Swift Stride; Chariot)
2 Crew (Always Strikes Last; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon)
2 War Lions (Causes Fear)

1 Repeater Bolt Thrower, (Repeater Bolt Thrower)
2 Crew (Hand Weapon; Light Armour)

1 Repeater Bolt Thrower, (Repeater Bolt Thrower)
2 Crew (Hand Weapon; Light Armour)


I went with this list:
2250 Pts - Warriors of Chaos Roster

1 Wulfrik the Wanderer, (General; Hand Weapon; Shield)

1 Chaos Sorcerer of Tzeentch, (Mark of Tzeentch; Level 2 Upgrade; Hand Weapon)
1 Disc of Tzeentch (Flaming Attacks; Causes Fear; Flyer)
1 Armour of Morrslieb
1 Third Eye of Tzeentch

17 Chaos Warriors of Tzeentch, (Mark of Tzeentch; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Shield)
1 Champion of Tzeentch (Mark of Tzeentch; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Shield)

17 Chaos Warriors of Tzeentch, (Mark of Tzeentch; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Shield)
1 Champion of Tzeentch (Mark of Tzeentch; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Shield)

17 Chaos Warriors of Tzeentch (Mark of Tzeentch; Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Shield)
1 Champion of Tzeentch (Mark of Tzeentch; Hand Weapon; Chaos Armor; Shield)

45 Chaos Marauders of Khorne, (Always Strikes Last; Mark of Khorne; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Frenzy) – Wulfrik will join this unit.

5 Marauder Horsemen, (Hand Weapon; Fast Cavalry)
5 Marauder Horsemen, (Hand Weapon; Fast Cavalry)

1 Hellcannon, (Causes Terror; Large Target; Unbreakable)
3 Crew (Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour)

1 Chaos Chariot,
1 Chaos Chariot,

Overall, his shooting tore me up. Now I know that as Chaos we can take the cannon and use that to our advantage, but playing against him, I always have to deal with his superior shooting and his magic always takes me out. Perhaps it’s just because I’m playing him all the time and that he has a tendency to sit back and just wait for me, but I’m not sure. I’m getting tired of losing all the time, but I’m still having fun, I’d just like things to work out once in a while.

I’ve tried march blocking, being aggressive with magic and so forth. Should I work on augmenting my troops more? Go with knights?

Any ideas? I have over 5,000 points of Warriors of Chaos sitting here and I hate the idea of looking at going back to High Elves. I miss having a well-rounded army, but I love Chaos. I know that I’m a relatively “new” player, but something has to give. Any advice would be well appreciated.

Jake
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chiram
The Chosen
i use to go with chosen/ warshrine combo's supported by hordes of marauders ( khorne = no panic test ). added with lore of shadow/death sorcerer lord. and tzeentch wizard.
also add a hellcannon and for the rest fill it up with stuff i think is handy.
btw mark shrines tzeentch = 3+ward
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chaos rising
Warrior of the Chamber
Hi,

you've possibly got a few options, Chiram's Chosen and warshrine combo + MoK marauders will scare the pants off elves if you get into combat and work well. a lvl 4 is usually a good investment...

your warrior unit sizes are good, survivable enough for max numbers of models in combat but you'll be unlikely to break steadfast unless you blender the sea guard. however... if you're getting shot up... you'll either unluckily panic, or not get there with enough warriors to chop em up

i'd take (and have taken against HE with sucess...)

unit of warriors with MoK, halb & sh + Blasted Std
unit of chosen with MoT, full cmd, ironcurse icon for chosen champ and Banner of Rage, halb & sh.

Both units have 5++ versus war machines, frenzy to ignore panic and will kill more elves when they hit. even after ASF spears which won't do as much damage vs warriors with halbs.

MoK Marauders - big enough to survive the fire fight and if large they'll usually attract more fire...

also... you'll need something else for him to shoot at that you're not too worried about loosing as you close the ground to him as close as possible.

try blocking his chariots to stop them disrupting your advance by parking hounds/horsemen 1" in front ideally angling the enemy away from your line

even run your hellcannon forward it'll create a stir and take out light enemy troops in combat

shoot back - stream of corruption on someone, exalted with book of secrets and lore of fire. elves really hate a 4D6 fireball :)

good luck, they're always fun to play against
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sometimesafish
The Chosen
I like to use lots of marauders with GW's against HE. Their elites will mow through them, but they pretty much mow through warriors so I think its better to have 45 marauders hit swordsmasters than 18 warriors. I'd say lose a warrior group in favour of more marauders.

You can also try lvl 4 fire mage on arabyan carpet (with a ward save). Hide him behind a warshrine/chariot to move him u a bit and than fly around out of the forward arc of shooting. Blast sweet fire spells down his line, T3 elves < S4 fire.

You may also want to give shadow a go. Hex the elves and their GW's become normal weapons and if you lower their I they can lose their re-rolls. However, the damaging I tests aren't so useful and lowering their T is unnecessary so shadow definitely has drawbacks against HE.

I agree with chosen + shrine (favor of gods and wailing banner), make sure you take a lvl 4 though so you can dispel dwellers and such.

Wulfrik is a good choice if he sits back in a corner. This guy never lets me down. Oh, make sure someone has the blasted standard.
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nas
Member Avatar
Norsca's finest
Well, the main problem is that your whole army through out is weak.
Your magic, offence and defense is weak.

It's too little of too much.

You need to think through what you want out of each unit, rather than just see it as a number of points that needs to be filled.


When facing armies that rely on shooting, like High elves - Key is to focus on building point-denial armies. You know that you will be outnumbered in range attacks. You know that his army will mostly sit back and softing your units up until he can charge and break you. So the one thing you can do is minimizing as much casualties as possible before you hit combat. And here Warriors really shines.



Here is how I should build my army;

Characters
LVL 4 of Tzeentch
Disc
Talisman 3+ ward (talisman)
Infernal puppet
charmed shield
395

BSB of tzeentch
Disc
3+ ward (armour)
shield
halberd
224

LVL 2 Death
Spell familliar
conjoined homunculus
Iron curse Icon
160

Core
20 Warriors of tzeentch
hand weapon + shield
standard bearer
mus.
Blasted banner
398

26 marauders of khorne
great weapon, muc
164 (?)

Special
16 Chosen of tzeentch
Full command
Favour of the gods
Wailing Banner
halberd + shield
445

Rare
Warshrine
Warshrine
Hellcannon
= 465


You have a strong magic phase aswell as your infernal puppet can wreck havoc on his army.

Also death magic works very well combined with hellcannon (Doom and Darkness), and givs you the ability to snipe out enemy characters from distance.

Combat is solid, your warriors get 3+/5+ or 5+/5+ save against swordmasters,
Your chosen have a 30 % chance of getting 3+ ward save and stubborn, and due to two warshrines you probably get at some point in most games.

Your marauders of khorne are a small unit, but he can't ignore it and must direct some of the shooting against it, letting your warriors march towards his units.

Your most important units are your characters on disc - They can take some considerable amount of pounding before they go down, and can take out chariots and warmachines by themselves. Move them as a tag team and they will own their table quarter.

Best of luck beating your opponent.
/K
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sometimesafish
The Chosen
Quote:
 
BSB of tzeentch
Disc
3+ ward (armour)
shield
halberd
224


BSB on a disc against stand off shooting? Can I ask why? 3+ ward is nice, but you WILL fail some. Heavy armor gets stripped off by a lot of spells/bolt thrower and at only 2 wounds I feel like this guy will eat it.
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redarmy27
Slave
[ * ]
So I did some looking around and then talked to some people after the game and found out a few things:

First of all, he stated that he was using the Razor Banner. Good and all, but he was using it for shooting when in reality it's only for close combat. This whittled down my warriors quite substantially.

Secondly, and this nearly wiped out a whole unit of warriors and a half, he was using Bow of the Seafarer as if it was a Repeater Bolt Thrower. Here he was taking four shots (he was counting the prince's four attacks as four big shots from his souped up bow, each as a penetrating RBT shot), each with the ability to pierce my ranks.

No wonder why I was getting so frustrated... I was not only facing a Deathstar but a Cheddar Deathstar! Now I know that my guys would have taken some heat on the way in, but he nearly cleared out twenty warriors by the second turn with that stupid Bow of the Seafarer.

Oh, and this may sound incredibly stupid, but can chariots completely spin a 360 and then charge? When I popped my marauders behind him, he claimed they could flip a 360 and then charge.


Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm going to take your advice, soup my stuff up and get ready to bleed those elves out. I'm sick of losing.

Jake
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deathphoenix
Warrior of the Chamber
It looks like you got ripped off there, although I think you can get armour piercing on bows. It says on P67, if a model has a weapon with the AP rule, then only attacks made or shots fired with that weapon are AP. Razor Banner gives the unit the AP rule, so I would argue they get it for shooting and combat attacks. I could be wrong, however.

But he did cheat by shooting 4 times with the bow of the seafarer. Only the Reaver bow allows you to shoot multiple shots. And I'm pretty sure chariots don't have 360 LoS.

Next time you'll smash him. :rock:

dp
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sometimesafish
The Chosen
Nope, no 360 chariots. Only the random movement special rule can spin, or things that act like it (hellcannon failing Ld test etc.)
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chiram
The Chosen
maybe stupid question but if we have a bsb and our units have to take a panic test can we reroll it twice cause of our army's special rule?
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Destandor
Member Avatar
Jailor of Hated Magic
Nope, you cannot reroll a reroll unless in very special exceptions.
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ThePilch
The Chosen
A single model can turn on the spot as many times as it likes during it's own movement phase...however movement comes AFTER charging so all models can only charge in their charge arc (the way they were facing from the previous turn).

You and your mate should sit down and read the rule book all the way through together sometime! I've gone through it 5-7 times so far, both on my own and with others, and each time there is something new to find that changes how you thought things went :D

Pilch
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wamphyri101
Warrior of the Chamber
I will try and give you my 2 pennies on this as My main army is High elves but I have recently become a chaos convert.

High elves power is all in the elites. Yup they get more of them and yup they hit like bricks¡Kbut god do they die fast. Best way to kill a HE is prolonged combat. His units are very expensive and die quick so he will be looking for quick combats and probably try multi charges to kill you in one swoop (its what I do!)

Best way to take out each thing you usually see is:

1: Archmage: He usually has a 4+ ward or the robes that make him immune to mundane attacks and the item that makes magical attacks mundane. If you charge with your lord and he accepts a challenge then you will know why. Best way is Puppet as it works wonders. Other than that just front/flank his unit with no champions. Another option is spawns as you can direct all your attacks on him (but dependent what unit he is in as ASF can be a bitch vs white lions!)

2: Archers: Though just str 3 shots they usually hit on 4+ (3+ close) and have a 30 inch range. Best way is hero on disk/magic missile/chaos knights. Unless your really unlucky most of the shots will bounce off your armour.

3: Spears: unless un-buffed they are pretty lame. I would run in chaos knights or chaos warriors with banner of rage. Keep your horde marauders away from them though as they can really hurt them due to rerolls/high number of attacks due to rank rule.

4: White lions/ sword masters: magic missile them/ hell cannon. These guys can mess you up in combat and since chaos don¡¦t have enough shooting to deal with them then it¡¦s a pain. Tzeentch warriors work also due to the 5+ Parry ward and you will kill a lot hitting back (if you aren¡¦t already dead ƒº) Again Marauders could work very very well. A unit of 20 white lions/sword master with command is 330pts¡Kthat¡¦s a lot of marauders. If you have 50, he can only kill 13 ¡V 19 a turn (He elites are usually 6 wide, 3 or 4 back. They are too expensive to horde or waste points on combat res ranks. My he I only take units of 18) so even if he does kill 19 of your marauders you would probably wipe half his unit back in return. You might lose but you¡¦re stubborn. Battle of attrition he loses.

5: Phoenix guard: 4+ ward, I6 and halberds (not to mention fear) make then pretty tough BUT they are only str4. Even with the AP banner you will get a 5+/6+ vs them. Usually they will be a mage bunker with banner of sorcery. I would throw chaos knights at them as well as warriors. No point with marauders as you would just bounce.

6: Dragon princes: Yeah they hit hard with str5,I6,ws5,A2 and a 2+ save, but at 30pts a pop they are no chaos knight. Just charge them first with anything and hold them up till the big boys get in. To be honest 1 character on a disc can take them if no lord/hero. I would flank them with hounds just to hold them up. Blood curdling roar works wonders also! Yeah its 6 to wound but no AS¡K.Killed 4 in one pop last night and If you see more than 1 unit of 6 ¡V 10 on a battle field I will be bloody surprised!

7: Lion chariots: ouch! 2 str 6 reroll attacks, d6 str 5 impacts hits and 4 str 5 attacks¡K.it can hurt a lot! Usually in a pair and supporting dragon princes. BUT its 140points and only toughness 4 with 4 wounds and a 4+ save. Our chariots last longer. Charge with knights (only the crew have ASF and the lions are I4 maybe 5 off the top of my head) and you will eat it. Other than that magic it to death

8: eagle: it¡¦s not going to do much to you. Doesn¡¦t get rerolls and is str 4/ws5/I4/w3 with no save so your warriors would eat it. It will probably hang around to act as a +1 combat result for charging or to redirect your units. Checky flames of Tzeentch will kill it no prob
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redarmy27
Slave
[ * ]
deathphoenix
Apr 22 2011, 09:55 AM
It looks like you got ripped off there, although I think you can get armour piercing on bows. It says on P67, if a model has a weapon with the AP rule, then only attacks made or shots fired with that weapon are AP. Razor Banner gives the unit the AP rule, so I would argue they get it for shooting and combat attacks. I could be wrong, however.

But he did cheat by shooting 4 times with the bow of the seafarer. Only the Reaver bow allows you to shoot multiple shots. And I'm pretty sure chariots don't have 360 LoS.

Next time you'll smash him. :rock:

dp

I thought the same thing too and asked some others and they stated that the shooting weapon itself must have the AP rule. By giving it to the unit, they only get AP in close combat.

I'm going to talk to my friend tonight about all the stuff that was done in the last game here. Let's hope that it goes well.

Jake
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LORD VOKUL'NAX
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Corrupted Slann
wamphyri101
Apr 23 2011, 12:10 AM
He usually has a 4+ ward or the robes that make him immune to mundane attacks and the item that makes magical attacks mundane. If you charge with your lord and he accepts a challenge then you will know why.

Is that really possible? High Elves can make a totally invincible character? that doesn't seem right. :huh:
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