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| How to win? Point denial | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 17 2011, 04:08 AM (719 Views) | |
| Maddoc | May 17 2011, 04:08 AM Post #1 |
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Slave
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Okey, so after about 10 played games, I've gotten a few new impressions on the game. The most important thing I've been thinking about, is unit size (how many models in a unit), and how big impact this has on the game. It doesn't matter if you butcher half the unit, as long as they outrank us and gain steadfast, playing with elites makes it hard, atleast when you try heavy infantery (warriors) which are costly. How does an elite infantery army cope with this? The problem is low manouverability, and they'll be withered down by shooting or killed by elites with high I (Swordmasters, Cold One Knights etc). Most people bump 2 warrior units up to 18 for survivability. And this is a good idea, it'll allow your 6 wide unit to gain full advantage of supporting attacks, most likely. But more than often, they get shot to pieces or blown up by magic before there reach anything with enough numbers. And if you can't wipe out an unit in CC, or run it down, then you don't get any Victory Points. Horde units benefit greatly from this rule. As long as just one model survives, no VP for you. That got me thinking, in a 2,5k match, why don't bump a unit of warriors up to 30+? Giving them the Blasted Standard and a hero with Magic Resistance (2) or (3), they will never die. Never. And in CC, they will outrank and remove the steadfast bonus. With a unit of 17 Chosen of Tzeentch (who get's the 3+ WSv), teamed up with a BSB with The Banner of Rage, a Sorcerer Lord on Disc with the Talisman of Preservation (3+ WSv), lvl 2 on disc with the Golden Eye and two Hellcannons, what does your opponent attack? Seriously, what? Over half of your army is buffed beyond destruction (infantery), the Lord and Lvl 2 almost untouchable, and two Hellcannons who doesn't care if they are shooting or fighting in CC. Point denial incarnate. Thoughts? |
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| sometimesafish | May 17 2011, 05:58 AM Post #2 |
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The Chosen
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That is a pretty good point denial list and, having used almost this exact list a few days ago, it is absolutely hard to deal with. I was so impressed I will probably take it out again for another spin (I will drop my chosen down from 20 though :D ) But to answer your question, I would attack the 30 warriors. Send some fast movers to tie up the hellcannon so it can't shoot for a round or two and fire off literally every spell that causes each model in a unit to do a characteristic test at the warriors. About 1/3 die each spell, not that bad considering it is so many points if you can kill them all. Specifically, I would back up and stay out of CC until I see there are only 3ish ranks of warriors left, and than hit them from front/flanks (ideally). Also, if you happen to be able to death-snipe the MR character it would be helpful. The disc guys will lose CC if fighting infantry, so since there is nothing to tie you up other than chosen I would feed the chosen some steadfast fodder, blast all shooting and spells at the warriors for a few rounds than close in and try to finish. I guess I would try to use the fact you only have 2 blocks able to fight to my advantage and never engage anything until late in the game. Gunlines would have a particular field day with this I think, 30+ warriors is a BIG target. Sure you have a ward, but even a 4++ gets failed half the time. Once those 30 are reduced to 15 well... As for dealing with the chosen 3++, stubborn... I never know how. The only easy way I know is that damn 13th spell. Everyone isn't a Skaven though. In summation, I like this idea. :) |
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| Hinge | May 18 2011, 09:42 AM Post #3 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Shadow magic can give it a rough time. Pit of shades for the Hellcannons. Mindrazor will tear through your armor. Miasma, enfeble, and withering will all go long ways to making your units much easier to deal with. Try this Dark Elf list. Lord on Coldone, seadragon cloak, Pendant, Crown of Command, GW. 1+/reverse ward. This guy gets jammed into your chosen. With a BSB close by, this nearly unkillable lord will be going no where, and so will your chosen. Any characters in the unit will be challenged and eventually killed. Most like putting him on a peg for extra manuveribility. lvl 4, Sac Dagger, Shadow Lvl 2, Death With two power of darkness and the sac dagger, he will get at least two spells off past your defenses. Better hope they miscast. Death will be used to snipe your wizards (golden eye does not defend against direct damage spells) and/or throw Doom and Darkness. Stubborn/steadfast 5 is not as scary. I outlined shadow above. Cualdron. 5+ ward, KB, +1 attack are all good. Horde spears. Throw in mindrazor and +1 attack and they will chew up warriros. Horde Witchelves. Again, mindrazor and +1 attack do wonders. That is 4 I6 attacks each, poison, ST8! Plus stubborn near a cualdron. Hydras are always a pain. Still plenty of points left over. An unlucky gateway or dreaded 13th is nearly an auto lose. Simple Hell cannon round. Do you want to depend on having to make a re-rollable 7 on the first turn? Could end before it begins. Heck, a re-rollable 8 gets failed more often then I like. Your Hell cannons will be targeted by opposing artillery. You are also banking on the 3++ on the Chosen. With no warshrine, you only get it 30% of the time. To many eggs in one basket for my taste. Sure the basket is rock hard, but it turns the game into a dice rolling contest. It simply is to Susceptible to a bad roll. In the end, not enough manuever elements, so you have conceded the movement phase to a well balanced army. Hinge |
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| phierlihy | May 23 2011, 10:00 PM Post #4 |
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The Chosen
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I suppose the obvious answer is to bring Marauders. At 6 points with a Great weapon, a block of 40 with the Mark of Khorne runs in at 300ish points. Bring a block of those for every unit of Warriors and suddenly you have Steadfast all over the board. And nobody wants to take a big block of Great Weapons in the face! You want maneuverable? Lock his units into place and start flanking his units! |
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| Krakanrock | May 24 2011, 12:05 AM Post #5 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Actually it's only 5pts/model w/ great weapons. So that's a paultry 242pts w/ MoK, standard, and musician! |
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| phierlihy | May 24 2011, 08:24 AM Post #6 |
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The Chosen
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You're right! My brain was sleepy this morning =) |
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| FriendlyFanatic | Jun 4 2011, 07:18 AM Post #7 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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When you have to pit the list against dark elves to find holes you know you have a solid(cheesy) list. My answer to the OP's question is, nothing. The opponent should pack his things and leave. He has no chance of succes unless his list is geared specificly towards yours. Big units of warriors is a problem though, especially if frenzied. That many points in a single block means that if you play against a good player with a list designed for avoidence. You will have a hard time. Picture 3 great eagles keeping your 600+ point regiment out of combat the whole game. I did it, and it works. That said, 2 hellcannons + 2 disc mages will ruin anyones day, someone might tell you that empire or dwarves will just blast those mages to pieces with cannons, those people are lying. 2 mages + 2 cannons will provide more targets than any army is capable of dealing with. I would'nt do it, it won't net you many friends thats for sure. FF |
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| FriendlyFanatic | Jun 4 2011, 07:22 AM Post #8 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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Sorry for double post but I have to comment on this. My experience seems to be that khorne marauders aren't as good as the price suggests. Have you tried calculating how many die to witch elves, swordmasters or even empire halberdiers before they get to strike back? plus the unit is really clumsy in my experience. They tend to get outmanouvered or stomped all over by monstrous inf(OnG Trolls @ 35 points each :angry: ) |
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| phierlihy | Jun 4 2011, 08:01 AM Post #9 |
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The Chosen
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The reason why Marauders work so well for me is that I run them only 5 or 6 wide. They are there only to hold a unit in place. Once that's done, the heavy hitters will hit them and do the real damage. But with Great Weapons they can take on other heavy hitters for quite often half the cost. They're Marauders and I expect them to die. I just expect them to make my opponent pay dearly for their blood. Sure Witch Elves or Swordmasters will rip them up. But once they've taken a pile of the enemy with them, the second unit I run into them, like my Warrior blocks, have a much easier time! And I wouldn't typically throw a crappy Core unit into an elite Special unit and expect to win. I might use it as bait though! Like any tool, you have to understand it's function and it has to fit the job. Marauders fit my play-style and my battle plans pretty well so I can make them work. Other people using different tactics may not find them as useful. To each his own but they work for me. |
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| FriendlyFanatic | Jun 4 2011, 09:21 AM Post #10 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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I hadn't actually thought about khorne marauders in a narrow formation. I usually picture the 7-10 wide formation that most people use. Don't you find that they just lose combat res in the first round thereby losing frenzy? Perhaps nurgle or slaanesh would work better? |
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| phierlihy | Jun 4 2011, 11:06 PM Post #11 |
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The Chosen
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Of course they lose combat! A nice, expensive block of (for example) Swordmasters will smash them into little pieces! BUT...I'm losing 5 point models while he's losing models that cost double that or more. And if there is a character in there, it's almost gauranteed he's going to see 6 WS4 ST5 attacks coming his way. I know my characters don't want to see that! It'll take him a couple of turns to wipe out my Steadfast bonus hopefully giving me time to hit him with something that has actual killing power in the Flank or Rear. For the record I actually field them 6 wide for maximum attacks and in blocks of 42 for 7 full ranks. My Marauders are like Chaos Hounds - totally disposable. Life is rough in the Chaos Wastes! I actually alternate pretty frequently between Khorne and Nurgle on my Marauders. Sort of depends on the enemy I'm facing. High Elves, Dwarves, Brettonians, WoC, & Demons I attatch the Mark of Khorne while most other armies see Nurgle. Lately I've been fielding them with Khorne just due to my opponent selection. One last thing worth mentioning is that it is pretty tough to get the Battle Standard off a big block of Marauders. Which is nice for some scenarios. |
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| Hinge | Jun 7 2011, 10:10 AM Post #12 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Well, that was the first list to come to mind :) I took the tone of the OP as a challenge and threw out what is unfortunatly a common DE build in the tourney scene. It is not the only solution. WoC- As I alluded to in the first post, a single HC round may very well see the one warrior unit running (unless ItP). A re-rollabe 7 is failed apporximatly 20% of the time. Gateway and Withering/Curse of the Leper are both spell solutions (if long odds). Ogre Kingdoms- Yep, here is a lower tier army answer. The Skullmantle, Brahmir Statue, and a Mask of EEE! Spam panic check spells and see how well your opponent can make a -4 leadership check. Throw in terror checks at -4 as well. Now you may say this is built to take on this list and it is. However, I have found the most common armies happen to be WoC and Skaven in todays tourneys (not to mention the Beastmen thrown as a bonus) and I think I would seriously consider taking this combo in OK. Lizard man-Skinks and chamelon skinks to poison the HC, other skinks to act as speed bumps, Cogitation to limit the lvl 4, Lore of Metal to do the rest. pretty common list. The proposed list is hard but far from unbeatable. The proliferation of hard to kill lords with the crown of command allows many armies to tie down one unit while concentrating everything on the other parts of the army. Conga lines of unbreakable/high leadership stubborn troops will do the same. Other weakness: Some one mentioned being forced to overrun do to frenzy. 5 ranks does not guarantee steadfast. lvl 2 on disc can be Death sniped. Finally, the biggest weakness to large, expensive units is that you have so few units in your army. Your opponent can easily dominate both the deployment and movement phases of the game. He will only engage you on his terms. I think a well rounded list played by a good player will beat this one more times then not. Hinge |
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| Ghular | Jun 7 2011, 11:28 PM Post #13 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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Well, the armies this kind of list will have a problem with the most are probally large armies with lots of cheap troops as they can tarpit one of your major threat blocks (probably chosen), and focus their heavy hitters on your other block. Skaven in particular with gutter runners to tie up the cannons and a hellpit/doomwheel in on the flank could be trouble. Especially with a Seer who potentially could 13th one of them. The answer though it that it is a strong army, and therefore hard to beat by anything, but personally I would try beating it by tar pitting the chosen and focusing on the other units. The chosen aren't really ever going to run, so there's no point trying to take them out, but the warriors might be susceptable to running if they're not marked khorne. |
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| DarkSchneider | Jun 9 2011, 06:49 PM Post #14 |
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Clanlord
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In a world with no Dreadful 13th spell that list would work.......you always need something that's not infantry to deal with skaven......and those hellcannons will die very fast (gutter runners, spell with I check) like they nowadays do against almost every opponent... <_< |
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