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3000 pts army vs. Dwarfs , take casters or not ?
Topic Started: May 22 2011, 11:45 AM (848 Views)
Alric
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Warrior of the Chamber
So imagine you are playing in a 3000 point army battle against a dwarf army do you take any sorcerers or not ?

Not taking a sorcerer means you avoid the possible +4 dispel dice a dwarf army could have and use those points for a killy chaos lord.

OR

Take a level 4 tzeentch sorcerer lord instead of a chaos lord, and 2 level 2 sorcerers and hope to channel 1 or more extra power dice. Add a power familiar and homunculous for more power dice and adds to casting roll.

Basically do you pass on the magic phase going for a kick ass chaos lord or do you go heavy magic trying to out cast the dwarf dispelling.
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Kraytirous
Exalted Guardian
I'll be honest. In a 3000 point game, I'd go for a killy lord. Their army is so large that magic won't have that much of an effect (anything short of gateway wiping a unit off or treason on swordmasters/ black orcs). Pandaemonium would be really it, but that wouldn't matter against dwarfs.

And Lord wise, I'd always get Aethersword and Runeshield on a Chaos Steed. No rune weapon, no armor save, gg. Then have an exalted hero BSB beside him with the Other Trickster's shard to help cut on that 4+ ward save his Lord is guaranteed to have. Throw him with a unit of Tzeentch Knights with 4+ against shooting and let havoc ensue.
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AnomalyOfAwesome
The Chosen
Well, wouldn't the Chaos Runeshield negate anything that Lord has on him? I don't remember the exact rules, but I thought all of the dwarf's runes go on his weapon, even the defensive ones that buff his saves.
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Alric
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Warrior of the Chamber
They can generate 4 extra dice for dispelling which means you need to roll 4's or better for the winds of magic to have an equal chance when casting spells. You would add a +5 to the sorcerers casting roll where the dwarfs only adds a +2 , with a difference of 3 in the sorcerers favor thats close to 1 dice roll each cast.

One strategy would be to cast 2 low cost spells with the sorcerer lord to pull some dispel dice from the dwarfs pool , since the sorcerer is adding +5 to each cast and the dwarfs only +2 the dwarf would have to use 1 more dice than the caster to have an equal chance to dispel, that could pull 1 dice per low casting cost spell.

If you channel 1 dice and add the 1 extra for power familiar then that plus the bonus for caster level (+5) could cancel the dwarfs extra dispel dice.

Only problem is that you would need a near perfect roll on the winds of magic , rolling a total of 8 or more on 2 dice with the difference being no more than 1 between the 2 dice rolls. A roll of 2 and 6 would give the dwarf 10 dispel dice and you only 8 power dice. So your best chance would be rolls of doubles of 4 or more.

Looks like even having 3 sorcerers with one a lvl 4 tzeentch lord would still be fairly risky and possibly a waste of points. Any magic phase that had a dice roll where the dice had a difference of 2 or more between them would give a dwarf army with a runesmith , runelord and anvil an advantage that could cancel all the points spent on sorcerers.

What really sux is that the dwarf can spend all those points on runesmiths and anvil and they are not a waste.
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Leth Shyish'phak
The Chosen
If you're writing a list to fight Dwarfs, you need to either take a lot og magic, or none.

If you want spells, I'd go with the Sorcerer Lord that has +6/7 to cast, throw in the conjoined homonculus and make sure the power familiar is somewhere.

Oh, and no Dwarf army only has +2 to dispel. There's a rune that gives an extra +1 for ~40 points and then another bsb rune that gives an extra +2 and auto-removes nearby remains in play spells.
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LORD VOKUL'NAX
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Corrupted Slann
Leth Shyish'phak
May 23 2011, 03:00 AM
If you want spells, I'd go with the Sorcerer Lord that has +6/7 to cast, throw in the conjoined homonculus and make sure the power familiar is somewhere.


How do you get a caster that is 7+ to cast. I can see an item and mark combination to grant 6+ to cast, but how do you get it to 7+?
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AnomalyOfAwesome
The Chosen
Quote:
 
Oh, and no Dwarf army only has +2 to dispel. There's a rune that gives an extra +1 for ~40 points and then another bsb rune that gives an extra +2 and auto-removes nearby remains in play spells.


Their book confirms they get extra dice for the Rune Smith, Rune Lord, and Anvil. Why do you believe that they don't get the extra dice?
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Alric
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Warrior of the Chamber
Leth Shyish'phak
May 23 2011, 03:00 AM
If you're writing a list to fight Dwarfs, you need to either take a lot og magic, or none.

If you want spells, I'd go with the Sorcerer Lord that has +6/7 to cast, throw in the conjoined homonculus and make sure the power familiar is somewhere.

Oh, and no Dwarf army only has +2 to dispel. There's a rune that gives an extra +1 for ~40 points and then another bsb rune that gives an extra +2 and auto-removes nearby remains in play spells.

Skull of Katam plus MoT gets you to +6 casting. I would use the skull on another caster nearby to have the sorcerer lord with the power familiar.

But as you pointed out the dwarfs will have + 3 or better to their dispel rolls , and with a runesmith+runelord+anvil they will more than likely have more dice for dispelling than you do for casting.

With 3 sorcerers channeling and a power familiar you have chance to balance out the power dice/dispel dice ratio but there is the rune of balance that lets dwarfs take a power dice an add it to their dispel dice.

Dwarfs certainly can have enough dispeling to nullify the enemy magic phase if they only take a single sorcerer , as you say you would have to take lots of sorcerers and casting items just to have an even chance of casting spells.

I think I'll go with a sorcerer lord and 2 level 2 sorcerers, power familiar and skull of katam.
With 3 sorcerers channeling dice and the power familiar should even the odds for casting. Maybe with some luck I can kill his runesmith early in the game.
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chiram
The Chosen
take a lord on jugger with eather and runeshield.
his weapon becomes mundane weapon vs 1+ armor
and dwarf has no saves vs 6 attacks from lord and 3 from jugger plus a stomp
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Bezerker
Bezerker
Bring archaeon. And a bsb.
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Arflane
Slave
[ * ]
Dwarven players seldom use the rune that gives +1 to dispel.

Mostly you will see a runelord with the Master Rune of Balance and 1 or 2 spelbreakers (dispelscrolls)

This will give him +3 dice and the opponent -1 dice.
This will even the dice in most cases but still the Dwarven player only gets +2 to dispell, and a Chaos player will have usually +5, giving him the equivalent of a die headstart for each spell he casts.

So if a scorcerer casts with 4 dice, a dwarven player will have to throw 5 dice against it, giving him a bit more than 50% chance to dispell it.

Considering the low casting values for the Chaos lore spells it is most likely that even against dwarves Chaos can succeed in casting 1 or 2 spells each turn if played correctly (atleast if you do not take the spelbreakers into acount.)




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Eta
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Exalted Guardian
Dark Lord of the Sith
May 23 2011, 04:50 AM
Leth Shyish'phak
May 23 2011, 03:00 AM
If you want spells, I'd go with the Sorcerer Lord that has +6/7 to cast, throw in the conjoined homonculus and make sure the power familiar is somewhere.


How do you get a caster that is 7+ to cast. I can see an item and mark combination to grant 6+ to cast, but how do you get it to 7+?

Level 4 + MoT + Book of Asur + Skull of Katam = +7 to cast. You'll need a second sorcerer to carry the Skull of Katam, though.
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Alric
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Warrior of the Chamber
chiram
May 23 2011, 05:15 PM
take a lord on jugger with eather and runeshield.
his weapon becomes mundane weapon vs 1+ armor
and dwarf has no saves vs 6 attacks from lord and 3 from jugger plus a stomp

How do you protect your lord on jugger from dwarf warmachines ?
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Alric
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Warrior of the Chamber
Arflane
May 24 2011, 12:08 AM
Dwarven players seldom use the rune that gives +1 to dispel.

Mostly you will see a runelord with the Master Rune of Balance and 1 or 2 spelbreakers (dispelscrolls)

This will give him +3 dice and the opponent -1 dice.
This will even the dice in most cases but still the Dwarven player only gets +2 to dispell, and a Chaos player will have usually +5, giving him the equivalent of a die headstart for each spell he casts.

So if a scorcerer casts with 4 dice, a dwarven player will have to throw 5 dice against it, giving him a bit more than 50% chance to dispell it.

Considering the low casting values for the Chaos lore spells it is most likely that even against dwarves Chaos can succeed in casting 1 or 2 spells each turn if played correctly (atleast if you do not take the spelbreakers into acount.)

Its not that good of a chance unless you can channel 1 or more power dice and have a power familiar.

The dwarfs with a runelord/smith and anvil can have as many dispel dice as you have power dice. Remember the dispel dice pool comes from the highest of the 2 power dice , a roll of 2 and 6 means the dwarf can have 6 plus 3 or 4 dispel dice , thats 9 or 10 dice, while you would have 8 plus 1 for power familiar and maybe 1 more for channeling so thats 9 or 10 power dice. Without a power familiar and channeling it could be 10 dispel dice and 8 power dice making it likely all your cast will be dispelled.

As stated above I favor going with heavy magic , 3 sorcerers and a power familiar at least. I dont like the idea of not taking any sorcerers because that's surrendering the magic phase w/o a fight. At the very least even if you are unlucky on your early magic phases later if you kill a runesmith/lord before your last magic phase then you could have a fairly easy magic round that could win the game.

At 70 points I would not take the Book of Asur imo the 25 point Power Familiar is a better buy for one of my lvl 2 sorcerers, I would also take the 15 point channeling staff my sorcerer lord.
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Leth Shyish'phak
The Chosen
The Book of Ashur is quite a good item, I often use it on my Exalted Sorcerer. +5 to cast/dispel is good, the fact that you can take your casting bonus to 6 or 7 is just great.

You nearly always have more power dice than your opponent has dispel dice, and when you have a +3 advantage over your opponent, they're having to roll at least one more dice than you with average rolls.

Not to mention that you can cast a lot of spells, even with limited power dice.
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