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| 3000 pts army vs. Dwarfs , take casters or not ? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 22 2011, 11:45 AM (849 Views) | |
| Alric | May 25 2011, 02:02 PM Post #16 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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Discussion on this one point alone. The Book of Ashur is a 70 point arcane item which means that you could only use it with a sorcerer lord and also means your're only going to have 30 points of other options for equipment. Since you can only have 1 arcane item the 25 point power familiar is a better choice , it allows 75 more points of magic equipment for your lord and on average you will add more than just 1 more point to your casting number too. |
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| Eta | May 25 2011, 07:28 PM Post #17 |
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Exalted Guardian
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When you try to cast three or four spells, the +1 of the book is very useful, as it is not a "one-time" boost as the Power Familiar. Furthermore, having an additional +1 to Dispel is very good, too. I ran a Tzeentch sorcerer on Chaos Steed with Talisman of Endurance and the Book of Ashur. Decent armour and ward save, +6 to cast / +5 to dispel - allround a good caster. |
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| Leth Shyish'phak | May 25 2011, 10:18 PM Post #18 |
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The Chosen
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With 30 points of magic items to spare, I find that my Exalted Sorcerer can generally get what he needs. I prefer for him to not be in combat, so protective things aren't always that important. If you really need him to be hard to kill, stick him on a disk with the golden eye and the charmed shield; 2+ armour, 3+ ward against shooting/magic missiles and ignores the 1st hit on a 2+. The power familiar only benefits one spell, the book benefits every spell that you cast, as well as making it easier to dispel things. Not to mention that a 2nd Sorcerer can carry the power familiar for him if you really want it. |
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| Alric | May 26 2011, 01:31 PM Post #19 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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Remember part of the topic of this thread is dealing with a dwarf army by using 3 casters a Tzeentch Lord , and 2 lvl 2 sorcerers. Average number of power dice will be 7 , the dwarf could have as many or more dispel dice.Just +1 more to cast on 1 or 2 cast is not as helpful as 1 extra power dice because the Tzeentch sorcerer will be attempting to cast Gateway and Treason every chance , the Nurgle sorcerers will be trying to cast 1 or 2 spells each also.Gateway a 15+ will be 4 dice at least , in an either one or the other discussion I'd rather have 1 more power dice than +1 to cast. Also since this discussion has to do with a dwarf opponent you wont need the dispel adds. To have both , Book of Ashur and power familiar , you would have to use the book on the sorcerer lord , that only leaves 30 points for additional gear. Going against a dwarf army in a 3000 point battle I'd rather take advantage of the sorcerers lord ability to wear armor and use him in combat , its a waste of points not to. Without taking the Book of Ashur you can have a Tzeentch lord in chaos armor with the talisman of preservation, charmed shield, chaos runesword with Distendable Maw or Diabolic Splendour on a Chaos Steed in a unit of Knights. Thats a 6WP , 5ST , 5I , 4AT with 2+/3+ save & LoS roll . In a 3000 point battle vs. dwarfs , that close combat potential is way to powerful to put on a disc and stay out of combat. I understand the idea of maximizing your casting ability in every way possible but in a 3000 point battle vs. dwarfs while I do want to maximize my chances of getting a powerful spell cast , having a single 70 point item to add 1 to casting is putting all your eggs in one basket. In a 3000 point battle vs. dwarfs I'd rather have a sorcerer lord that can fight well in close combat as well as have a good chance of taking out a dwarf hero. |
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| Wouter | Jun 5 2011, 11:11 PM Post #20 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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I think this is a very nice opportunity to bring in archaeon. |
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| Kraytirous | Jun 10 2011, 06:54 AM Post #21 |
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Exalted Guardian
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The runeshield negates the magic weapons of everyone in base contact. You're not in base contact with yourself. This would include allied heroes. But not the Lord himself. |
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| Lord Axtunhold | Jun 10 2011, 12:40 PM Post #22 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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Not. At. All. Dwarfs have up to three runes on each item. Only weapon specific runes would be negated. Things like ward saves and armor boosts would not be negated. A typical "unkillable" lord would be unbothered by the runeshield. Typical unkillable lords have a 1+ rerollable save and a 4++ on top of that. Any attack higher than S5 is reduced to 5, and they are also immune to poison and killing blow. For attacks, this guy typically just takes a great weapon. Honestly, the way to stop this guy is either the armor ignoring sword or simply ignoring him as much as possible. Don't pit a lord against him if you can help it- you'll just end up wasting attacks that need to be killing the hammerers the Lord will be in. Watch out for a Lordpedo (Lord rushing forward on his own). Unkillables can shrug off a whole unit while great weapon dwarfs get in place. Against Dwarfs... I'd say don't take magic. When I'm facing WoC as my dwarfs, a Tzeentch Sorcerer Lord is my most feared piece. So I bring an Anvil, and your magic is likely shut down. You roll boxcars, you get 11 PD and I get 10 dispel, plus my spellbreakers (dispel scrolls). A Tzeentch disc lord is the way to go. A 3++ flyer is my personal nightmare as a Dwarf player. That thing means I don't get much shooting with my warmachines before he storms my machines down, denying me both ranged power and the point denial that warmachines can often serve as late game. At the very least he will soak up the wrath and ruins (grounds flyers, halves movement, d6 S4 hits) from the Anvil of Doom, which is huge - it means the Anvil is wasting it's potential. If a dwarf player shoots any artillery at him other than this, be glad. |
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| guardian angel | Jun 11 2011, 11:47 PM Post #23 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Well, I had a 3k game against dwarfs last night (first game against them in the 8th) and it went well in the end. The list I took was: LORD: Sorcerer lord(lvl4-shadow)+talisman of preservation+enchanted shield+spell familiar+sword of might HEROES: Exalted hero(BSB)+MoT+shield+talisman of endurance+dragonhelm+iron curse icon+biting blade=200 Sorcerer(lvl2)+MoT+pupppet+charmed shield+necrotic phylactery+3rd eye of tzeentch=215 CORE: 20 Warriors+MoN+shields+halberds+m+sb+banner of rage 48 Marauders+MoK+gw+fc 48 Marauders+MoK+gw+fc 5 Marauder horsemen+MoS+la+flails+m 5 Warhounds 5 Warhounds SPECIAL: 20 Chosen+MoT+shields+fc+favour of the gods+wailing banner 7 Knights+MoT+m+sb+blasted std RARE: Warshrine Spawn His list was roughly: Runelord (no anvil!) Runesmith BSB 38 Hammerers 30 longbeard rangers 30 dwarf warriors 12 thunderers 10-12 quarrelers 2 gyrocopters 2 cannons grudge thrower organ gun I ended up massacring him :D Things I learnt from the battle: 1) Dwarf magic defense in immense! I got ONE spell off the entire game :blink: Between him stealing a power die, tons of dispel dice and spell breaking runes it's EXTREMELY hard to get any spells through. Even after I killed his runelord I still struggled! Moral of the story: If you take magic against dwarfs don't bank on it to win you the game! 2) Dwarf artillery is deadly, engage them ASAP. You may not always win the fight due to their toughness, but as long as you win, draw or hold against them you deprive them of the chance to fire their big guns. Last night my dogs and fast cav were ace at pestering his artillary depriving him of several turns of shooting. If they don't win it's not the end of the world, their job is done. 3) Longbeard ranger units have the potential to he silly good! Armed with throwing axes, gw and scout they can potentially scupper your plans from the get go! Be careful when charging them as they can fire 20 strength 5 shots at charging units :blink: A great unit, and if used properly would cause serious problems. Note: MoN warriors with banner of rage still own them though ;) 4) Hammerers are HARD! They are ws5, strength 6 with gw and stubborn on a 9! I pitted my chosen against them (they had a 3+ ward save and extra attack), and only survived due to the ward save! I managed to get my knights into the hammerers flank as well, but it took me about 8 turns of combat (4 mine, 4 his) to finally wipe them out. If you engage them, you'll be in for a long fight! Attempt to weaken them before engaging if possible. 5) Knights with the blasted standard and MoT are ACE! They survived so many shots it was silly due to that combo. Definitely recommend as the only thing that can reliably take down chaos knights is warmachines. Anyhow, hope that helps anyone else who is gonna face dwarfs anytime soon. |
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| phierlihy | Jun 12 2011, 03:46 AM Post #24 |
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The Chosen
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Ever since the Lore of Shadow has come out, I've been using the Distendable Maw ability occasionally to great effect. I love killing characters and giving them no save =) I ate a Tomb King once though and that gave my Sorcerer Lord such bad heartburn that even Regeneration couldn't protect him. I'm not doing that again... |
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3:04 AM Jul 12