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| Why aree you playing Marauders of Chaos?; big 3 mistakes in building a WoC list | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 12 2011, 08:57 PM (2,928 Views) | |
| GeneralofChaos42 | Aug 12 2011, 08:57 PM Post #1 |
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The Puppet Master
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I believe there is three big common mistakes, in building a Warrior of Chaos tournament army list. The more I dive into my beloved army, I find these to be the key faults. That most people make are making in there list. It's so common that over 95% of people, are following the same mistake over and over again. Thinking this is the way to build a good WoC list. First I will talk about the two most common gimmick builds. A] Chosen Chaos Deathstar, this is when you sink a ton of points in models and characters into a Chosen unit of Warriors or Trolls. Most Deathstar's run between 35-50 Chosen Warriors in them or between 15-20 Trolls. This could also a bunker for every character in the army. The two big flaws in it, opponents will have no fun playing against it. Plus good player's in a tournament will stay away from it, then cripple the rest of your army and win by points. B] The next big gimmick build is TWO Hellcannons and the BSB with the Doom Totem. Plus a Level 4 Sorcerer casting Doom & Darkness from the Lore of Death. The trick is to force opponents to fail there LD test and watch units run off the board. It works but once again is no fun to play against army build. Plus the downside of tournament play is this. There are a ton of fantastic ItP armies out there. [Daemons, Vampire and now Tomb Kings] So sooner or later your going to draw them as a opponent. This leads me to most common crutch of a WoC army. [drum roll please] the double Hellcannon, it is so popular by Chaos players. That it's a 0-1 choice at some Indy GT events. If you look at the mustering field? You will see a ton of lists running the double Hellcannon. I understand why, as it is very good unit. But I do not think it's needed to do well. As I stated it's a crutch, that WoC player's use. I believe Warriors of Chaos player's do not need to use any gimmick build. I believe our book was made with 8th edition in mind. I believe with the right build we have a good tournament army. The problem we have now, is people are repeating the same flaws as the next person in there builds. Flaw #1: are you playing Warriors of Chaos? Or are you playing Marauders of Chaos? If you go to the army build section of this forum. You will see over 95% of the list, having double to tripple the number of Marauders to Warriors. Then you will hear this as thesre excuse for the reason why? A] they are cheap [they are right on this point] B] with large blocks of them, you have the steadfest rule. So they can stay stuck in combat. Hate to break it to you people, but you only use that new shinny rule if you lose by CR? If you win combat, let your opponent worry about taking the steadfest test. Or staying in combat. I believe that Warriors of Chaos should be the backbone of ANY good WoC army list. Not Marauders as the backbone to the army. But when you run 3-1 Marauders to Warriors, that is what you are 100% doing. I also believe that Marauders fill a key role in the army. So this is not me hating on Marauders. I field one big block of Marauders in all my lists. But I believe that every good tournament list should have between 40 to 60+ Warriors in it. Flaw #2 why so many characters? Once again if you go to the army selection of the forum, most people run between 3-4 characters in there 2,400-2,500 point tournament army. To me this is a HUGE mistake. I believe for every charater you take, you better have a clear role in your list for him. I believe this is the spot to save on points for extra Warriors. The only time, I can see using a third character is if your taking Throgg. This way he can use his LD on a unit of Trolls. With that said, I think your 100% better off on taking only 2 characters, saving the extra points for more Warriors. Flaw #3 why no Chosen Warriors of Chaos? Without a doubt this is the best buy in a Warrior of Chaos army. If you take the Wailing Banner & Favour of the Gods set up, with between 15-20 models. You have a great center piece to your list. Off the first free role your going to get one of the four following gifts. [+1S. +1A, +1T or Divine Greatness] With that being said, if you turn and look at army mustering field? You will see over 75% of the builds do not run Chosen unit of Warriors. This could be because of the bad name of DEATHSTAR builds. But most gamer's that attend tournaments, know the diffrence between the two builds. Now this is just one person view, so please take it with a grain of salt people. I do hope this will open up good feedback or debate on the subject of what makes a good Warrior of Chaos army list. GoC |
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| Eta | Aug 12 2011, 09:21 PM Post #2 |
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Exalted Guardian
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On the marauder topic - people do not take huge units because they want to negate steadfast / be steadfast but to absorb the huge casualties the marauders in their most common build (GW, Khorne) will take before striking back. Thanks to the step up rule, they will strike back and strike hard. There are very few units that can reliably win against Khorne marauders with GW. With the prevalence of deathstars all around, one or two big units of marauders are IMO a key element for a strong WoC army. Get them into contact with the enemy deathstar and watch the death toll rise on both sides. The thing is, as the WoC player, you simply don't care because your 50 marauders only cost 300 points. They can thin out the numbers of the opposing deathstar until it is managable for your other units. Losing a 300 point unit to be able to rout an enemy deathstar unit is well worth the points. Personally, I do not often use marauders because my gaming group does not play competitively. When I take them, I use a unit of 36-45 (multiple of Tzeentch's holy number and all ;)) marauders of Tzeentch with shields in a five wide formation. Their sole purpose is to bind one or two enemy units for a couple of turns until I have the resources to get rid of them. Then my warriors and knights swarm in and finish the opposing units off, profiting from the CR the marauders (hopefully) still provide. |
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| GeneralofChaos42 | Aug 12 2011, 09:41 PM Post #3 |
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The Puppet Master
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Eta: I agree the best build for Marauders, are the Mark of Khorne with GW's. I think we would both agree, it is by far the most common build for Marauders also. But with that said it is not working, if you look up results of Indy tournaments & UK GT's. Warrior of Chaos lists are not winning these events. Your lucky to find just 1 WoC army in the top ten. As I pointed out, so many people are blinded by there love of Marauders that keep repeating there same flaw in there build. With Warriors you do not need to worry about taking a ton of huge casualties back. With Warriors you can get the best of both worlds, Mark of Khorne works just as well for Warriors. As it does for Marauders? That's why I called this topic, are you playing Marauder's of Chaos? GoC |
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| phierlihy | Aug 12 2011, 10:13 PM Post #4 |
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The Chosen
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I belive you bring up a really excellent point GeneralofChaos42! I've regularly tried huge blocks of Marauders and they are awesome in a few key places but utter garbage in many more others. I do like my big block that I run deep for the ranks but I've started splitting up my other block of 40 into two units of 20 and use them basically as detatchments for my units of Warriors of Chaos. In that role they function brilliantly. Cheap ranks, disposable, and they'll still leave a few dents on whatever unit breaks them before they run away. And any unit of 20 models is a pain to get rid of. The other points in the original post are equally valid. If I were to summarize - if you wouldn't have fun playing against it, don't field it. |
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| Eta | Aug 12 2011, 10:18 PM Post #5 |
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Exalted Guardian
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You have to worry about casualties with warriors when you go against units that have greatweapons or another way to get S5+. With only a 6+ armour save left over, your warriors will endure heavy casualties - which are not as easy to compensate than dead marauders. |
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| Nor | Aug 12 2011, 10:25 PM Post #6 |
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The Chosen
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Dear mr. GoC I read youre army diary earlyer this week. and saw you were an (no offence this is ment in all respect) "older" gamer, and offcourse by that means, I thought, you must have a lot of knowledge and experience. And oh boy this post just proved I was rigth in thinking so, I totally follow you. you are saying what im thinking. especially on the warriors over marauders issue! Cheers Nor :rock: |
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| conjoy | Aug 12 2011, 11:44 PM Post #7 |
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Exalted Guardian
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I would strongly disagree. Warriors are a very good unit and I always bring them in my fun list. But in terms of a competitive environment they just do not stack-up. I field marauders both in 5x9 formation Tz shield anvil and a Kh horde with GWs. Whatever role you want Warriors to perform another unit from our list does it better. Chosen are better grinders, Kh marauders will kill more at less cost. And even as far as anvils go, Marauders perform this role better, by gaining Steadfast especially when you look at it on a point for point basis. Warriors are simply more likely to give-up their points than an equivilant unit of Marauders or Chosen. The only exception I would see to this is in taking a unit of Warriros with the fiery banner for monster killing. I generally aree on the less characters idea. For me, characters fulfill three purposes: Leadership Leadership Rerolls Magic The net result is that I take three characters. My scroll caddy is my general. I boost his unit with the banner to 9, and he sits with the BSB in a unit that's sole purpos is to provide leadership wherever I need it. My Disc Lord is then free to concentrate on his role, which is the magic phase. |
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| GeneralofChaos42 | Aug 13 2011, 12:04 AM Post #8 |
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The Puppet Master
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Nor, I was play testing a lot of units. [Trolls, Chaos Ogres and Knights] Trying to make them all work or fit into my army build. I was also checking out other people builds on line. Also checking out the results of big scale GT's. For me, my results in play testing. Got better when I started adding more and more Warriors into my army list. As I took out more Trolls, Marauders or Ogres. Then when I was doubling checking other people lists, I noticed how many more models of Marauders to Chaos Warriors. Most people where using in there lists. There is a reason why WoC player's have not finished well in GT's or won the top spot. I hope the flaw is people making Marauders the backbone of there list. That's why I posted this topic, I hope to get some good feedback and counter points from other forum member's. See if I'm on track or going off in the wrong direction. GoC |
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| snyggejygge | Aug 13 2011, 12:57 AM Post #9 |
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High Zar of Khorne
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First of all, you raise a few good points I agree with, I don't do Deathstars, I only field a single hellcannon, so agree on you there, but I figure you want a debate as well, so here goes: I normally field a big block of marauders of Khorne, but tbh I do it more to negate my opponents steadfast rather than to inflict a multum of casualties, therefore I usually deploy them 6 wide & 7-8 ranks deep. One unit has served me very well, but I see your point in overdoing it, more than one unit could be overkill & a waste of points vs a few armies, but against a few other armies out there it would be perfect, I think you need to consider what armies you expect to play against in order to decide whether to just use one marauder unit or 2-3 units. Trolls, trolls work very well if they have a character to lead them, they look dangerous, soak up a lot of damage & once in combat they inflict enough casualties to win most combats. As for characters, I usually field 3 of 'em, this has worked for me, but I want to point out that they have very clear roles & are kept quite cheap, I have a sorc lord on disc with infernal puppet & 3+ ward, an exalted of Tzeentch I use as the general with Book of Secrets & a scroll & a bsb on steed which leads my trolls, having Helm of Many Eyes & Charmed shield. Lastly I don't use chosen when I use trolls, chosen are very powerful indeed, but the warriors are needed for minimum core & the trolls while not always as powerful as chosen, are a lot more fun to play with & still do well enough to be considered a solid choice. Trolls are also a lot more fun to face for the opponent, which might net me a better score for friendliness (no matter what ppl say, if your army is maxed out to win, they don't give you good scores for just being friendly). |
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| GeneralofChaos42 | Aug 13 2011, 01:37 AM Post #10 |
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The Puppet Master
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http://www.indygt.com/ Here some GT results are easy to find, you will see WoC are not doing so well. When it does pretty well? Most of the time it's a Troll King army. That why I feel so strongly that the current build of most WoC armies, are not working. Example: Conflict GT 2011, best finish for WoC 13th overall Colonial GT 2011, best finish for WoC 13th again Lonewolf GT 2011, best finish for WoC 6th [only WoC in top 10] Bawler Bash 2011, best finish for WoC 8th [only WoC in top 10] SAWS challange 2011, best finish 3rd overall [it was a Throgg Troll King list of course] Capital City Carnage 2011, best finish 7th overall [only WoC in top 10] Buckeye Battle 2011, best finish 8th [only WoC in top 10] Bayou Battle 2010, best finish 18th for WoC GoC |
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| rothgar13 | Aug 13 2011, 02:29 AM Post #11 |
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Clanlord
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Indy GT results are a good indicator of that the current building paradigm needs some work, I agree. What I don't fully agree with is what parts need work. And given that Throgg lists by and large are Deathstars, I think people need to start giving Warrior-stars and Chosen-stars some serious consideration. If we know that most opponents can't stand before us in honest, man-to-man combat, why not field more of those troops? I hear you loud and clear on the character issue. I'm fielding 3 characters, tops, and that's at quite high points values. Now, where I do disagree somewhat is with regards to Marauders. The problem that Warriors face is that you can put all the protection in the world on them - they still only have 1 Wound. That means that if you face elite troops with the ability to punch through armor easily (Bestigors, Grave Guard, Hammerers, Ironguts, I could go on), they are going to get MURDERED. To boot, those guys are cheaper than Warriors, so you doing the same thing back isn't going to hurt them as badly. Add onto that the fact that those units are commonly fielded in Horde formation, and you're going to have to find another unit to put up against them, while the Warriors try to come in from the flank and bash heads that way. Enter the Marauders - they're cheap as dirt (cheaper than the things you'll be sending them against, for sure), hit pretty much as hard as Warriors with Halberds do, and there's little to no reason to not field a big ol' Horde of them. With Marauders, you can go toe-to-toe with their big hitters, while the Warriors chop up the rest of the army, or even help the Marauders finish the job. Alternatively, you could also fight fire with fire and just bring more Warriors - though at that point I would consider the Great Weapon over the Halberd for maximum carnage inflction. I am heavily considering fielding Chosen over Chaos Knights, though, so I am leaning toward your side on that as well. It's rather painfully apparent to me that Chaos Knights have some bad, bad matchups that I can't really mitigate, and that's a lot of points I'm sending down the tubes in those cases. On the other hand, the Chosen will always be good, because all they are is beefier Chaos Warriors under this setup. Now, what I am considering is weapon choice. Is Divine Greatness enough protection to say "Initiative be damned" and suit up with a Great Weapon? Or is the Halberd still our darling? |
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| Hinge | Aug 13 2011, 12:08 PM Post #12 |
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Exalted Guardian
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You make several good points GoC but I have to take exception with one. Warriors won Best Over All at SAWS and it was not a Throgg list. I know because it was me. I believe Throgg got third best general. For the record, since last August I have gone 24-3 in tourney play with WoC, including 2 best overalls and undeafeted at Adepticon. Why do I think WoC does not do better? To many large blocks of infantry and a tendancy to cede the movement phase to the opponent. If you pick the battles you want, you do not need lots of bodies. Our troops are blenders and will shred most opponents. The "standard" builds seem to do well on the first day but when faced with superior players on the second day, players who know how to dominate the movement phase, these lists tend to fall short. I will post my tourney list in the apporpriate section, but you will find: 3 characters. As you suggest, they each have a clearly defined role. Chosen Star. 12 models only. Yep, gets dreaded thirteenth alot. However, I have never lost to Skaven. Warriors. Just 14 Muaraders. Two units of 22 1 Hell Cannon. Sprinkling of other things. Hinge EDIT Actually here it is http://z4.invisionfree.com/cotec/index.php?showtopic=7488 |
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| Deroga | Aug 14 2011, 02:15 AM Post #13 |
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The Chosen
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I am the warriors player that took 7th at Capital City Carnage, and did generally well at Lonewolf (had several unpainted models and had a list thrown together as i didnt think i would originally make it) From what i saw, there were no Warriors armies at Lonewolf that had more tha 1 unit of 40-60 marauders, including myself as i hadnt been able to buy more than 60 at that time. At this tournement here is what i noticed about Marauders w/GW... - 1 unit was OK. It was very hit or miss, though, as most armies could reliably deal with a single unit via shooting, combat, or magic. At CCC, i was able to field 2 units of 50 Marauders w/gw, and this is what i found there... - the second large unit started to seriously push the boundry of what people were capable of handling, i never lost both units, and they caused massive headache for every opponent. This combined with the lore of heavens AOE spells + combat enhancers/debuffs made the marauders monsters. Ld 9 through standard of discipline made it so that the marauders would almost certainly stay, and were capable of grinding down just about anything in the game. the 300 points spent on them are so easy to make up that it really doesnt seem fair vs most opponents. Lonewolf List.... (roughly) Sorcerer Of Tzeentch on Disk lvl 4 Exalted of Tzeentch on Disk Exalted of Tzeentch BSB Warriors of Tzeentch x 39 w/halbards and FC Marauders of Khorne x 60 w/GW and FC 2 x Chariots 2 x Hellcannons CCC List Sorcerer Lord of Heavens lvl 4 Exalted Hero of Tzeentch BSB Warriors of Tzeentch x 24 w/Halbards and FC Warriors of Tzeentch x 14 w/shields and FC Marauders of Khorne x 50 w/GW and FC Marauders of Khorne x 50 w/GW and FC Hellcannon x 2 Warshrine So, based on my experiances at GTs, the problem isnt that marauders are being used, but that not Enough marauders are being used. To be effective i really feel that at least 2 units of 50-60 marauders with GW's are needed in a competitive enviroment. Hell Cannons are also really good for their points, although i can see the arguement for not taking more than 1, as in all my games they were usually responsible for the points given up. However, i have found that after 3-4 solid units of infantry, the board starts to become to cluttered to have youre vital units covered by bsb/general bubble. This means, imo, that one really needs to have manueverable, reliable, strong support units to hit the open slots. These, imo, are best taken up by chariots and hell cannons, as they are tough, and hit rather hard. |
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| rothgar13 | Aug 14 2011, 01:14 PM Post #14 |
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Clanlord
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Thanks for the info, Deroga. Greatly appreciated. |
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| Hinge | Aug 14 2011, 01:20 PM Post #15 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Hey Deroga Are you making it to Alamo this November? I will be flying in from California with the Ld2 crew. I hope to have my Witch Hunter themed Empire army done by then. No stank, no Popemobil, and no artillery. For some reason, I do not think I will be doing as well as with my WoC :D Hinge |
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