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| Why aree you playing Marauders of Chaos?; big 3 mistakes in building a WoC list | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 12 2011, 08:57 PM (2,933 Views) | |
| GeneralofChaos42 | Aug 14 2011, 08:03 PM Post #16 |
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The Puppet Master
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More food for thought, thanks for posting Deroga. GoC |
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| DarkSchneider | Aug 15 2011, 12:06 AM Post #17 |
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Clanlord
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First of all, I think this is a great thread, I always looked for a more "competitive" discussion based on tournaments result, so thanks to GoC. These are my two cents: I'm doing pretty well recently in my country (Italy) with WoC, I just managed to qualify fot the National Final in December, and all started when I started playing two units: Chosens and Warriors. I personally field 18 chosens of tzeench with two warshrines, to be sure of getting the WS. Honestly, except for skaven no army has a way to deal with them once they get the 3++. And even skaven are not an auto loss, because I'm not fielding a bunker/deathstar, which is the WORST option, IMO. As said, good players can easily avoid your M4 block, and take out the poor other things you got on the table. Even worse, facing skaven will be impossible, cause two Dread.13 backed up with cannons, rockets and pestilence will probably wipe out your unit. So I think a 15-20 unit of chosen is great, but it need back up, that means MULTIPLE THREATS, as Hinge said. Which brings us to warriors. Let's start from a point: we HAVE to fill the Core section. So we are forced to take usually about 600 points between warriors/marauders and horsemen. That brings us to the old warriors/marauders question. I field one unit of both. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of marauders, but I recently realized a block of them is pretty much needed, because we need to add numbers. My personal build is 40 men tzeench with GW, deployed in 5 wide. MoK would give me 5 attacks for the cost of 30 points, while MoT will give a 6++ save for EVERY wound i get in the game, and it's cheaper. Besides, I can deploy a character with Ironcurse Icon inside them and avoid heavy casualities from WM in early turns. My warriors are 19, with MoT, shields and Blasted Standard (I used to play the Rapturus, but the new VC shooter made me change idea). My bsb also goes in them, granting RM2 for an overall 4++ save against magic and shooting. Their main role is to face opponent core units. That's why I don't go for halberds. I just think that the Step-up rule is too much a threat. Yes, we can do a lot of damage, but then we will take as much, with that poor 4+ save, and our warriors cost just too much to fall like flies. When facing core troops, which are usually T3-4, I don't need halberds, so I prefer the overall better survivability granted from the shield (3+ and 5++ in CC are very hard to face). I dont' play any hellcannon, cause everytime i did it just gave poitns to my opponent without doing anything worth (maybe I'm just unlucky with artillery rolls). Finally, on characters. I play the Lord, not the big sorcerer, so I spend more than usual points for characters, cause I've got to take 2 socrerors and the bsb. I personally don't have a good feeling with the SorcLord, expecially the tzeench one. If i would play one, I would personally go with shadow lore. My lord is just another threat my opponent's got to deal with, while he can usually ignore the Sorc (at least with CC units). So, this is my usual list: Lord Tz., with 3++, stubborn and Sw of Might, BCR, Chaos Steed BSB with collar, dragonhelm Nurgle Sorc with spell familiar Nurgle Sorc with dispel 19 warriors Tz. w shields and Blasted, FC 40 marauders Tz w GW, FC 5 marauder horsemen, X2 5 hounds 18 chosens 2 warshirnes |
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| Collinisimo | Aug 15 2011, 02:25 AM Post #18 |
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The Chosen
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I'd like to think that the backbone of my army is made up of Warriors, because I have three units of 18 Warriors. Then again, I also have two units of 50 Marauders. This makes for a very core heavy list, but that's a lot of infantry to wade through, and the points are very well distributed, with around 300 points per unit. I only take two characters, my level 4 and a BSB. More than that an I find it to be too many points that could go into over things. |
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| Deroga | Aug 15 2011, 12:49 PM Post #19 |
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The Chosen
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I am planning on being at the Alamo GT this year :D. Your list sounds like fun, though id imagine that youre right about overall out come :P. Might suprise a a few though. |
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| conjoy | Aug 15 2011, 09:07 PM Post #20 |
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Exalted Guardian
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I am all for saturation, but don't you find that when fielding that many troops/blocks that you are limited with your movement and deployment? What do you use for hitting flanks for instance? Assuming you field the units of 50 in horde and the Warriors by 6 then those four units have a frontage of 80cms or roughly 36 inches minimum if you deploy with only one inch between them. Surely at least one of those blocks is going to struggle to make an impact on the game? |
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| rothgar13 | Aug 16 2011, 12:34 AM Post #21 |
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Clanlord
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It seems to me that his list forsakes efficient flank attacks for flank denial - it's a solid advancing line of Chaos Warriors and Marauders, and you're going to have to fight them head-on, unless you brought a fighty flier unit, and even then they'll simply turn around. One way you can squeeze out a little maneuverability is by deploying all the Warrior blocks adjacent to each other, and moving them at uneven rates so that someone has access to the flank. |
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| Collinisimo | Aug 16 2011, 02:09 AM Post #22 |
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The Chosen
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You've got it spot on. I am comfortable with each of my units fighting their own combats, so I find that making it difficult to flank is advantageous. I also do take a unit of knights for an extra punch if needed, but usually they are there to take out harassment units early on. 3 units of dogs do my own harassing. If I end up facing an army with a unit or two that seems too scary to take on, I can deploy in waves; marauders up front, warriors in the back. I let them chew through the marauders first, and by the time they are done, my warriors should be able to mop up after all of the damage the marauders have done. |
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| Krakanrock | Aug 16 2011, 12:12 PM Post #23 |
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Exalted Guardian
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This is probably one of the best threads I have ever read. Lots of great ideas floating around. And to top it off it has to be the single most civil discussion on tactics that I have ever read. Good job fellas and keep it coming!! (Sadly I don't play enough to be able to contribute :() |
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| GeneralofChaos42 | Dec 1 2011, 11:47 PM Post #24 |
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The Puppet Master
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5 months later and 5-6 RTT and bunch of pick up games. The formula of just 2 characters and over 50+ Warriors have been a winner for me. With a few tweeks here and there, my current list at 2,500 points have done much better then I thought. If it gets painted, I will be attending Indy GT's in 2012 with it. GoC |
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| Hinge | Dec 2 2011, 02:08 AM Post #25 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Hope to find you across the table some day GoC Hinge |
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| GeneralofChaos42 | Dec 3 2011, 12:32 AM Post #26 |
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The Puppet Master
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Hinge you never know, if I end up retiring and settling my law suit? I plan to hit a bunch of Indy GT's in 2012. [fingers crossed] Just take it easy on me. GoC |
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| DarkSchneider | Dec 3 2011, 11:30 PM Post #27 |
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Clanlord
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Hi GoC, been a long time! What army are you running now? I'm curious about it |
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| GeneralofChaos42 | Dec 6 2011, 01:09 AM Post #28 |
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The Puppet Master
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Cult of Change Tz Sorcerer Lord Lv4 [General] w/ Tails of Perservation, Charm Shield, Disc, 3rd Eye of Tz, Warrior Bane, Bloodcurdling Roar & Immortal Puppet Tz Exalted Champion [BSB] w/ Chaos Steed, Shield & Armour of Destiney 19 Tz Warriors w/ Hailbreds, Shields, Musc, Standard & Banner of Rage 18 Tz Warriors w/ Shields, Musc, Standard & Banner of Discipline 5 Warhounds 5 Warhounds 5 Warhounds 15 Tz Chosen Warriors w/ GW, FC, [Favour of Gods on Champ] & Wailing Banner 6 Trolls 1 Tz Warshrine 1 Tz Warshrine Total: 2,498 pts Dark Scheider: I been running this list and started painting it for the 2012 Indy GT season, it has a mean 1-2-3 punch. Plus a good unit to hold up opponents in combat. With 3 redirecters and two Warshrines. It's a very good army, low on character points with a bunch of Warriors. It has done very well in play testing and at RTT events. My big concern is the comp score to be honest. If opponents are not careful the list has the ability to score a massacre on them. GoC Edited by GeneralofChaos42, Dec 6 2011, 01:12 AM.
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| Kormak | Dec 6 2011, 01:44 AM Post #29 |
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High Executioner of Khorne
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I could have told you that when 8th came out, I have been playing my Tzeentch list in a very similar way: Lords Sorcerer Lord - lvl 4 - Mark of Tzeentch - Talisman of Endurance - Infernal Puppet - Charmed Shield - Sword of Anti Heroes - 3rd eye of Tzeentch Total 415pts Heroes Exalted Champion - Mark of Tzeentch - Battle Standard Bearer - Talisman of Preservation - Ironcurse Icon - Halberd - Shield Total 199pts Core 19 Chaos Warriors - Mark of Tzeentch - Fullcommand - Rapturous Standard - Shields Total 374pts 17 Chaos Warriors - Mark of Tzeentch - Fullcommand - Halberds - Shields - Banner of Rage Total 374pts 5 Chaos Hounds Total 30pts 5 Chaos Hounds Total 30pts 5 Chaos Hounds Total 30pts Special 14 Chosen - Mark of Tzeentch - Fullcommand - Halberds - Favour of the Gods - Wailing Banner Total 391pts 3 Dragon Ogres - Additional Hand Weapons Total 219pts Rare Hellcannon Total 205pts Warshrine Total 130pts I think for a extra 100pts I would look at bumping up my dragon ogres, anyways I read your original post I have to agree with alot of what you said, I don't very often bother with marauders. The fact is they simply are not needed, while they are very cheap they are just prime targets for shootings, it rare they make it across the table in and conditition to pose a threat. I have played against people who think marauders are the key to victory and ended up with 18-0/20-0 victories. The games are just easy. I actually played against a guy with a 3 units of 30 marauders with great weapons and rolled over them with my warriors. They struggle against Mot with HW+SH warriors and halberd warriors slice straight through them, I tend to use my chosen with T5 and hope for a wardsave, such a nasty unit, deployed 7 wide, 21 S5 WS6 attacks hurts most units and they have the resilience to deal with the most powerful units. Atm the moment however I am trying to remove the gimiks from list and am again dusting off my chaos knights "deathstar" (I don't think it is but I have been told it is). I too am going to start hitting the tournament scene so fingers crossed my money allows me to head to winter war in jan :) I really don't know why people thinking investing so many points in a single unit is a good idea, just takes a skaven player (chosen) or a dark magic player (trolls) to destroy the army and any hope it has of winning. |
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| GeneralofChaos42 | Dec 7 2011, 12:24 AM Post #30 |
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The Puppet Master
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Kormak, Thanks for posting, like your list also. How did your list do with comp scores? That is my main concern with my list. GoC |
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