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Hinge's Ramblings
Topic Started: Aug 16 2011, 01:26 PM (13,965 Views)
Hinge
Exalted Guardian
With the posts flying about MSU Warrior units, I decided to do a write up of my army and experiences playing with WoC in 6 tourneys since August of 2010. This post is part army design philosophy and part tactics. I may add a history that highlights interesting lessons learned, what to watch out for, etc.

The List- The list was set pretty quickly. The two changes through the year was exchanging the Rapturous Banner for the Wailing Banner on the Chosen and putting magic weapons on all the characters.

Characters-All the characters have magic weapons. I have an irrational fear of ethereal and seem to encounter my fair share of ethereal HE mages and Slanns (not to mention wraiths). I freely admit the one on the Sorcerer is unnecessary.

Lvl 4 MoT, Charmed Shield, Sword of Striking, Infernal Puppet, Third Eye, Necrotic Phylactery 380 points

-Fairly standard build. Charmed Shield to avoid the first hit of a miscast. Necrotic Phylactery to avoid Death Snipe Spells and failing any unfortunate characteristic tests. He is surprisingly durable in combat.
-Third Eye is one of the best abilities in the game. Combined with Necrotic Phylactery, the smart opponent avoids spells like Dwellers.

BSB, MoT, Chaos Steed, shield, Tal of Endurance, Sword of might. 216 pts
-Durable and hits hard. Being mounted in an infantry army, it is rather shocking how few opponents did not target him with template weapons. The mount gives him the mobility to be where I need him. With Leadership 8, a BSB is mandatory. His other kit out was Armor of Destiny/Halberd

Exalted, MoT, Disc, Biting Blade, Tal of Preservation, Bloodcurdling roar. 215 pts
-Warmachine hunter, wraith hunter, flanker. I choose the ToP over the Golden Eye because it saves against all wounds, not just magic and mundane missile. He routinely will be thrown into tough combats and is often the target for Death Magic. Blood curdling roar is useful to plink a couple of wounds on hard to kill models.

Core-Built on the theory that massed ST 5 are a good thing.

5 Warhounds-30 points

5 Marauder Cav, Mus, Flail, Javelin 91 pts.
-Heavy investment in characters means I have to scrimp elsewhere. MoS on the horses or a second unit of hounds would be very useful.

23 Marauders, MoK, GW, Mus -149
-Usually deployed 6 wide. Excellent shock and attrition unit.

22 Marauders, MoK, Flail, Mus, Std - 152
-Std for Blood and Glory type scenarios. Unit is an alternative place to bunker lord.
-Great at assaulting and holding buildings. Otherwise, make sure to send it into something it will beat in one round.

14 Warriors, MoT, Halberds, Shields, Banner of Rage, FC-323 pts
-I choose MoT since it is useful against all forms of attacks/damage.
-Damage output of this unit is truly awesome.

Special/Rare-

12 Chosen, MoT, FC, Shields, Wailing Banner, Favor-323 points.
-Trying for Divine greatness, but even without it, a very tough unit.
-This unit often acts as bait. The opponent sees just twelve models, they see a vulnerable wizard, and cannot help themselves but to go after it. Even when I do not have divine greatness, it usually takes killing the unit to a man. I have been rather ruthless and taken advantage of this tendency. Even the best players will succumb to it occasionally.

Chariot-120 pts
-High Damage output in small area. With swift stride and good movement value, can threaten any opposing light troops.

3 trolls- 135 pts
-Proved to be immensely useful and sometimes frustrating. Usually deployed 2 forward, 1back.

Warshrine-130 pts

Hellcannon-205 pts
-I usually use mine as a cannon rather than a monster. Panda + Panic at -1= good things.

General Concepts

1. You will rarely massacre opponents. When played well, you will smash a portion of the enemy army while the rest is fed a host of cheaper units. Many tourneys also provide “bonus battle” points for obtaining certain objectives. It can be hard to claim all these as well. The flip side, you often avoid some of the power builds/power gamers until late in the tourney. Also, opponents who are tabled tend to be a bit bitter and can tank your soft scores, so this helps to avoid this.

2. Beware of slow play. With the rise of point denial, this has become much more common in tourney tactic (unfortunately). Setting up a good situation can take several turns and you really need to finish a game. I have taken to chiding my opponent with “let’s keep the pace of play going”. It at least puts them on notice that they are endangering any sports scores.

3. Be patient. I get accused of being very Un-chaos-y because I often wait for the battle to develop. Setting up the right time to charge can take time.

4. Every unit/model in the army is expendable. First off, we are the bad guys! If it advances the glory of Chaos to sacrifice your Chosen, it must be done! I have kicked both my BSB and General out of a unit to deflect an enemy charge. Just be sure that you have a plan to get those points back. The BSB is well equipped to do this. He can often take a charge and win or lose by just one and hold. His mobility allows him to get where he is needed.

5. Dominate what I call the middle ground. The first turn or two is often about dealing with enemy light troops while at the same time harassing the opponents main line. I use the Fast Cav, hounds, chariot, disc dude, and Warshrine. The trolls can do as well if you do not need to flee. The chariot is great for this. Sitting between the Chosen and Warriors, it can handle any opposing light unit. If the unit flees, I can redirect to something far away (up to 19”) and fail the charge while maintaining its position in the line. I try to expend the Fast Cav last. Their mobility may be key late in the game to get somewhere and interpose themselves between me and trouble.

6. Pick out a unit and threaten from several directions. First, you have to spread your four infantry units out a bit more then you might be comfortable. Enemy light units tend to focus on the Warriors/Chosen. On one flank, I tend to push one of the marauder units forward, the other sits back threatening that flank while hounds or something act as a speed bump. The ideal situation is to pick out a unit on an open flank, have the marauders threaten from the side, Warriors front, and the chariot and Disc Dude lurking from different angles. The Chosen hold the center. The other flank has light units and the other marauder unit to tie it up.

The last point is the key concept. Again, be patient and develop the situation. Bait and flees, fish hooks, clips, and speed bumps are all part of the arsenal. You can go head to head with any unit in the game, but you have to win combat fast, you do not have the bodies for a sustained encounter. Look for ways to bust steadfast as quickly as possible. Pandemonium is a great spell to help mitigate against steadfast.

If you are outnumbered, it is usually by cheap troops. These you can stay in combat for some time as long as you can keep their support off of you. If you are faced by large blocks of high quality troops, you will likely out deploy him. Pick an open flank (he will have one) and set up that ideal situation mentioned above.

Against heavy shooting, use the light troops as screens for -2 cover. Trolls can be great at this. They can also catch cannon balls. In this case, get across the field and get engaged. Your troops are better than his.

I hope some of this makes sense and gives fellow WoC players some ideas. I will rack my brain for specific examples during tourney play.

Hinge
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conjoy
Exalted Guardian
Brilliant, really impressed.

Some questions. Your lvl 4 isn't on a Disc, just couldn't afford the points?

Do you really find your Disc hero is effective enough to warrant his place? I would have thought another unit of Marauder Horse could ahve done a similar job? Maybe even better at the same thing?
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DarkSchneider
Clanlord
i would like to know how 3 trolls works. I'm having problems building my actual list, 'cause if I want to put in a secondo sorcerer, there is room for only three trolls, and I think they could be just too....few to be useful.
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Hinge
Exalted Guardian
In regards to the disc. I have never felt it was a real advantage to have a sorcerer mounted on it. I could usually reach whatever targets I needed. If I feel real threatened, I can pop him out the back of a unit and I instantly gain a 4+ LoS in addition to any wards. Really the optimal kit would be the Armor of Destiny, puppet, Necrotic Phylactery.

I find the exalted on the disc to immensely useful. Players have gotten very good at protecting war machines, so having a flyer to get over intervening troops is important. Oddly, war machine hunting is a small part of what he does. Supporting flank charges, hunting single characters, salamanders, wraiths, etc. Here are two specific examples of where he comes in handy.

1. Dealing with Helm of Command. Yep, that VC lord in the ghoul bunker behind the front lines and providing WS7 to those critical combats can be annoying. Send in the flyer to engage the Lords unit. You will likely push the first round and only loose by one or two in succeeding rounds. With the unit locked up, the Lord cannot use the Helm on other units. If the flyer breaks, he stands a good chance of getting away due to swiftstride. If he pursues, it will pull that bunker unit out of position.

2. I am facing the standard WoC list. Three big blocks of infantry, Sorc lord on disc, HC, Warshrine, three dog units, etc. The first two turns are spent chasing his hounds away while the Hell cannons and Sorcerers on each side do their thing. I almost always find the 24 Warriors, Banner of Rage, Halberds, MoN on the open flank. At the end of turn 2 (or even turn 1 if he pushes), the Flail marauders have been moving up the open flank but are still in the front arc of the MoN Warriors. The Chosen/BSB and Chariot are directly across from those Warriors. The rest of my army is facing the rest of his.

My turn 3. I place fast cav (or other light unit) across the frontage such that if he charges, he gets the Chosen in the flank. The flyer gets placed 1” from the flank of the MoN. The trick here is to leave a small corner of the unit exposed and in LoS of the flail marauders.

MoN can
-Charge and accept flank charges from the chosen, chariot, and fly guy.

-Stay stationary. I then charge with the marauders and clip so that only one model from each unit is in contact. The Cav screen prevents me from bringing additional models into contact. Flyer into flank and BSB charges out of the chosen into front. The hard to kill characters bring wounds, the marauders bring the static rez and break steadfast while minimizing casualties in return. I should win by 3 to 4.

-slide away/back up. This just buys me another turn to get those marauders in a better position to flank. The fly guy prevents a sideways move towards the open flank. Note that my infantry will continue to move 8” with a march while infantry back up is moving 2”. This gives me a big speed advantage.

-Reform. The unit is pretty well hemmed in by the fly guy and cav (and perhaps another one of his units). Any pivot towards the marauders exposes flanks to harder units.

-one of the above but use the sorcerer to blast the cav. Even if successful, I have pinned that unit in place, gained another turn of movement advantage over my opponent while one of his resources (magic phase) was used up. Plus, he has to kill the unit to a man or I have to fail a reroll able 8 panic check to move it out of the way.

You can set this up with non frenzied units, just more difficult. The scenario works because I have dealt with any opposing light units that could intervene and the flyer is tough enough to be thrown in against frenzied st5 troops and fast enough to be where I want him. I can pull this off because I out deployed my opponent.

I recognize the example is a bit in isolation and many factors will influence your ability to set it up. The example does illustrate the use of the fish hook, clip, isolation, and multiple lines of threat. Ideally I have set up a more obvious trap/threat with the rest of the army to add a little misdirection. Things like the Chosen and Chariot can be used to threaten the next unit in line as well (I suspect the trolls are parked in front of it). Even the fly guy can fly over the MoN unit and charge something if need be.

My next post, I will answer the question on trolls.

Hinge
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Collinisimo
The Chosen
Very nice read, thanks for posting. I'm looking forward to more.
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Krakanrock
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Exalted Guardian
Great stuff Hinge! Eagerly awaiting the next installment as I'm particularly interested in using trolls. I've used them once and was rather underwhelmed. I realize they are just there as a support unit but one thing that makes me second guess them is the ease of procuring flaming attacks in this edition and especially since my most recent main opponent likes to run 2 unit of 6 flamers.
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Hinge
Exalted Guardian
Trolls.

I happen to love trolls, so tend to put them in even when not optimal. In all honesty, trading the points for a second chariot might be more worthwhile.

The Chariot has the advantage of being able to put its entire damage output in a very narrow frontage, so is an excellent unit to support infantry. It has a long charge range. It is rather tough, actually more difficult to wound then a troll except for very high strength attacks.

The trolls bring more wounds and are faster on the move (march 12”). Magical vomit (remember that irrational fear of ethereals I mentioned) and rolls on the EoTG are more for fun the being really useful. All are good except for it comes with stupidity and susceptibility to fire.

Three trolls are indeed used as support. Depending on the matchup and deployment I will either go three across or 2 in the front rank/1 behind. The second option saves me space in my deployment zone and makes for a little more maneuverable unit (shorter wheel costs).
When faced with cannons, I will deploy in front of my bsb (who does not get a LoS). A cannon does not bounce any further if it fails to kill a monstrous infantry model.

The unit is usually pushed out in front as a particularly strong redirector. Place them at a bad angle for your opponent. They have an ok chance of holding. If they lose, they are rarely destroyed. The opponent can pursue to run them down but then will be drawn out of position or they can let them go and not get the points. In the meantime I have gotten one more turn to maneuver. Since they are generally close to the General, they have a good shot at rallying the first turn after breaking.

Against the Banner of Eternal Flame, save a spot on either side of your general and drop the trolls last. Keep away from the unit with the Banner as much as you can. Some opponents get so excited that you have trolls and they have this great toy to deal with them, they try a little too hard to bring that unit to bear against the trolls. You should be able to take advantage of this, even if costs you the trolls.

Seaguard with Banner of Eternal Flame. Try to keep trolls in woods and use other cover. Maybe only St3, but they are a pain. Again, look for the tendency to want to shoot at the trolls. I might also deploy the trolls further out on the flank then normal (meaning the general has to follow) and try to get the HE player to wheel the Seaguard further then they should to keep the trolls in los.

Flamers. You are SOL. Even if you took a horde of trolls, I think the flamers could single handily shred the unit. In tourney play I would either hide them to deny the points or place them behind cover to make it harder for him to hit but tempting enough to go after. At least he is not shooting at your other units.

Honestly, if you play against flamers regularly, I would leave the trolls at home. However, the guy on disk is who I use to hunt flamers down as well.

Hinge
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GeneralofChaos42
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The Puppet Master
Lot's of real good information Hinge, for both new and old time player's.


GoC
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rothgar13
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Clanlord
I wouldn't say a fear of Ethereals is irrational in a MSU army, actually. They can hold up a unit all by their lonesome if you don't have the static CR to kill them, and that can throw a big monkey wrench into an army that already relies on pinpoint execution to be successful. Being wary of those guys is entirely justified IMO.
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Krakanrock
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Exalted Guardian
Lots of great info Hinge!

Quote:
 
Flamers. You are SOL. Even if you took a horde of trolls, I think the flamers could single handily shred the unit. In tourney play I would either hide them to deny the points or place them behind cover to make it harder for him to hit but tempting enough to go after. At least he is not shooting at your other units.

Honestly, if you play against flamers regularly, I would leave the trolls at home. However, the guy on disk is who I use to hunt flamers down as well.

Yeah, I was guessing flamers would make trolls into a smoldering pile of charcoal. I'll probably replace w/ a chariot and take the extra pts and add them into other stuff.
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CyderPyrate
The Chosen
Cool, excellent guide. Good advice backed up by experience rather than speculation and 'the int3rnet sez'.
Awesome

What's the points level you tend to play at? No knights-have you found the flail marauders/chariots are more effective at smashing flanks?
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GeneralofChaos42
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The Puppet Master
Hinge,
Thanks for posting this, you might have just saved me a few months or more on trying to solve the Chaos jiggsaw puzzle. I plan to steal a thing or two from your list and tactics.



GoC
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Hinge
Exalted Guardian
To all-

Thank you for the positive feedback. My hope is that some would find an interesting or useful piece of information. I have a couple more tidbits to throw out this weekend. Mostly what I have seen at tourney's and some potential counter.





To answer some more questions. I usually play 2,500. The Indy GT circuit seems to have settled on this as the “standard”. Adepticon was 2,200.


Muaraders manage well v. most flank type units. Here are the things to keep in mind:

They cost approximately 150 points, not much more than most of my other “light units”. As such, they can step into such a roll. Whether it is redirecting, speed bump, or just thrown in against an opposing hammer for attrition purposes, their loss is not hard to absorb. That is as long as you create a tactical gain with their sacrifice.

While the unit hits hard, 18 ST5 attacks are nothing to sneeze at, the units have little staying power. The trick is to pick an engagement you can win in one round. I often push one flank while refusing another. A marauder unit on the refused flank provides enough of a threat that an opponent cannot expose a flank to turn in.

Finally, shooting armies tend to target these units. Easy to kill and small unit size. It makes me happy that they are not shooting at the Warriors and it is actually tough to shoot the Muarader unit down to a man, especially before the rest of my army engages. However, Mortars eat the marauders up.

Hinge
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conjoy
Exalted Guardian
Thanks Hinge,

Any thoughts on your least favourite match-ups in terms of army/composition and particular units?

Also interested to hear if you've played Furgil (Dwarf player running 3 blocks of 40 GWs: 1 Hammerers, 1 Warriors, 1 Rangers. and 5 Warmachines). I belive he's ranked 4th overall there.

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CyderPyrate
The Chosen
Just to clarify what a refused flank is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblique_order

In brief, you deploy disproportionate amount of force in one flank and try to 'roll up' the enemy army which is kept fixed in place by yours.


I try the strategy quite a lot, but with small numbers of units I tend to find my army gets split up too easily. The smaller units of marauders might be a good remedy for that.
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