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| Hinge's Ramblings | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 16 2011, 01:26 PM (13,973 Views) | |
| 3Fingers | Apr 6 2012, 01:17 AM Post #151 |
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Slave
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doh! Cheers for that :$ |
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| Hinge | Apr 6 2012, 07:15 AM Post #152 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Yep, Army book costs trump BRB costs. I think there is an item or two we are on the losing end of. I am glad you are enjoying the read 3fingers. Hinge |
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| rothgar13 | Apr 6 2012, 07:28 AM Post #153 |
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Clanlord
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That would be the Enchanted Shield. We totally got ripped off on that one. :( I also have to say I greatly enjoy the read. Your style of play is very different from mine, and I pick up lots of tips with your batreps regarding movement and what to expect from a MSU army. Edited by rothgar13, Apr 6 2012, 07:29 AM.
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| Hinge | Apr 9 2012, 12:36 AM Post #154 |
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Exalted Guardian
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At a recent local Con Tournament, I set aside my beloved WoC and played the bad….errrr…good guys for a change. I have always loved the Witchhunter fluff, so went about designing a list that I thought would fit much of the theme. The number one rule was no Stank or Popemobil. I wanted to show Empire could win without these. Most of the basic troops I have modeled up with little pilgrim hats. The Great swords are modeled as Templars of Mor. I felt MSU would really capture a bunch of bands that usually work alone to root out EVIL and CORRUPTION in the Empire but have come together to take on a tough opponent. Of course a lot of the inspiration has come from the Mathias Thulman books. Heck, the cannon comes from the ship (“Arnhem”) he rides in one of the books with the model having a crew of sailors. I also have to acknowledge SmithF of Warhammer Forums for his great Bat Reps with MSU Empire. It can be found at SmithF MSU Empire thread My List: 2500 Pts - Empire Roster Arch Lector of Sigmar (WitchHunter), 231 pts GW, Armor of Meteoric Iron, Holy Relic, Van Horstman's Speculum Wizard Lord, 275 pts (Level 4, 1 Rod of Power, The White Cloak, The Lore of Metal Captain of the Empire (158 pts), Pegasus, Sword of Fate, Charmed Shield, Potion of Foolhardiness Captain of the Empire (125 pts), BSB, Biting Blade, Dragonhelm, Dawnstone, Full plate Battle Wizard (130 pts), scroll, Ironcurse Icon, Lore of Death, L2 25 Swordsmen (225 pts), FC, 2x5 FC Detachments 14 Flagellants (150 pts), champ 14 Flagellants (150 pts), champ 14 Flagellants (150 pts), champ 5 Knightly Orders (149 pts), Mus, Banner of Eternal Flame 5 Knightly Orders (123 pts), Mus 5 Pistoliers (97 pts), Mus 5 Pistoliers (97 pts), Mus 10 Greatswords (143 pts), mus, champ 5 FC Detachment 10 Greatswords, Mus, Champ Mortar, 75 pts Great Cannon, 100 pts (Cannon) I had a chance to look over the new book last night, and it really nerfs this build. Ah well, I will come up with something. Metal Wizard had Searing Doom, Enchanted Blades, Glittering Scales, and Transmutation. Death has Spirit Leach and Soulblight. WoC 2500 Pts - Warriors of Chaos Roster Sorcerer (180 pts), L2, MoT, Puppet Exalted Hero (200 pts), BSB, Shield, Mot, Tal of pres, WarriorBane Sorcerer (170 pts), L2, Scroll, Iron curse icon, Fire 35 Chaos Warriors (680 pts), FC, MoT, Halberds, Shields 5 Chaos Hounds (30 pts) 20 Chosen (505 pts), FC, Wailing Banner, Favor, Halberds 5 Chaos Knights (250 pts), Mus, Rapturous Standard Chaos Chariot (120 pts) Hell Cannon (205 pts) Chaos Warshrine (130 pts) Chaos Warshrine (130 pts) An observant COTECer will notice that this list is actually 2,600 points. I did not catch this until afterwards. His General had Flick and Trans. His Fire mage had Fireball and Flaming Sword. His Chosen get Divine Greatness right off the bat. Scenario is a Meeting Engagement and I have the first turn. My Mortars, a unit of pistollers, and the Knights with the flaming Banner all start off the table. His HellCannon and hounds start of the board for him. I nominate his HellCannon with the Sword of fate. The two models marked CHA next to his Warrior Horde are Warshrines. His actual chariot is the furthest to the left. Here is Deployment to whet your appetite. I will finish the Bat Rep tonight. Posted Image |
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| KellyW | Apr 9 2012, 11:36 PM Post #155 |
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Slave
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Quick question, Do you think that having three units with frenzy can bring problems to you? A WoC player can use 5 marauder horsemen and place them 1" away from you and at a weird angle. That means that your unit can effectivly not move, or, if you wish to charge, you must overrun, therefore putting yourself out of position. Have you ever had to deal with these things? If you do, how do you deal with them? |
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| Hinge | Apr 11 2012, 12:44 AM Post #156 |
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Exalted Guardian
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One reason I tend towrds smaller (less expensive units) in both my WoC and Empire lists. If I get baited, there loss is not the end of the world. I do have different solutions for each army. WoC- Lots of hard hitting small units/chariots. I use these to clear out any redirectors. Also, since I have lots of units, it is much tougher to avoid combat. Empire-the flaggies are unbreakable. I can not think of a single unit that can kill 14 of them by hitting them in the flank. The frontage is just too small. Looking ahead, I should be able to set up a counter charge since I am confident the flaggies will hold. The new Empire rules will change this quite a bit since you now have to martyr. |
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| DarkSchneider | Apr 11 2012, 06:29 AM Post #157 |
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Clanlord
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well, I tought the new empire book would be good for your list, with the witch hunter and the (unnecessary) push on the priests.....but I know flaggies got nerfed. I have a question on the lvl 2 death mage: how much useful you think he is? I always restrained from taking death on my chaos sorcs because having ld 8 means that spirit leech is not so good as it should be....but an empire wizard has ld 7, i guess! Don't you feel that being compelled to stick him in a unit with a lord characters should make other lores more viable? Also, to get a good range for death spells you need to cast the improved version, meaning that a lvl2 mage would suck up too many PD for that. |
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| Hinge | Apr 11 2012, 12:46 PM Post #158 |
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Exalted Guardian
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As mentioned, this was a meeting engagement. After deployment, I felt I should have castled a bit more but was very happy I was given an enfilade shot on the knights with the Cannon. Oh Boy. Turn 1-Empire I mostly move up to get things in range for spells. The L4 feels safe in its White Cloak and jumps out to toss searing doom at the Knights. I really want them dead and plan on throwing a lot at them to accomplish this. Magic Phase-He stops Searing Doom and I fail to cast Spirit Leach. Shooting- The Cannon fires a perfect shot, killing three knights and panic them off the board! Posted Image Turn 1 WoC He charges the Chariot into the first small Greatsword unit, doing 4 only 4 wounds for two in return. The Great Swords hold on a their Stubborn. I shut down his magic phase and the HC moved on this turn, so could not fire. He uses the shrines on the WoC unit, getting +1 Attack and Terror. Posted Image Turn 2 Empire I charge the Chariot with the Flagellants and destroy it, over running 4 inches. I get the Fate Captain in position to charge the HC and Conga line one of the Flaggie units. In Magic, He stops Final Transmutation on the Chosen but I snipe his Fire Wizard. I also get Soulblight off on the WoC In shooting, the cannon nail sthe Hell Cannon, leaving the Fate Captain out of a job. I am not complaining. The Mortars kill 8 WoC. Posted Image Turn 2 WoC The Chosen charge one FC Detachment, the WoC the another. The diagram does not show it very well, but I had a better angle. Unfortunately, with the Chosen having to move over and a shrine close by, I had to conform to him, which proved to be a bit inconvenient. Both shrines go after a flaggie unit, with one making it. I shut down his magic. He makes short work of the detachments and overruns. The Flaggies do three wounds while taking 4. Posted Image Turn 3 Empire I charge the shrine with knights and Flaggies, Conga one Great sword unit, bail the characters out of the swordsmen unit into a unit of their own. I did this for two reasons. If he tossed flick at them and got it through, I would be able to parcel out the hits. Also, the death wizard would keep LD9. I moved the Mortars up as potential speed bumps. During Magic, He stops the snipe but I get Glittering scales (AoE) off but fail Final Trans. He chops down the FC but I destroy the First Shrine, sticking him with Terror. The second shrine kills three flaggies (I did not Martyr) Posted Image Turn 3 WoC He charges the two conga lines. His magic is ineffective. He kills 4 more Flaggies with the Shrine. His Wizard kills the prophet (I was not sure why he did not go in with his BSB). The hounds charge and are shot down. His Warriors champs attacks bounce off the 2+ armor of the Greatswords Champ and they hold. The Shrine gives the WoC +1 AS Posted Image Turn 4 Empire I am very tempted to send the swordsmen and clip the Chosen while also sending the Fate Captain into the rear. With the Chosen being stubborn, I decide not to. I move a mortar up to act as a speed bump if the Great swords break, as well as the Death wizard. I move the Archlector back into the swordsmen, deciding that if the Chosen are still locked up on my next turn, I will go for it. I get Glittering Scales off on an IF and survive the miscast. He finally does in the pesky Great swords champ but I hold. The second shrine goes down after finishing off the flaggies. He kills 6 of the flaggies that are tied up with the but amazingly enough a ST3 hit gets through and kills the Chosen Champ. Posted Image Turn 4 WoC His magic is stopped. He kills 6 more Flaggies and I get my chance. The 2+ Greatswords shrug off many hits and take 4 wounds. I do a couple back for a change and still hold. Posted Image Turn 5 Everything goes into the Chosen. The Death wizard is now on full redirector duty. I aim what is left of the other great swords at the WoC in prep of sending them in. everything else is moving away. I throw everything at AoE glittering scales, I have to keep those greatswords alive, and get it through without IF. His WoC kill only three Greatswords but they fail thir beak test, flee and are run down. Everything makes their panic test. I kill a total of 4 Chosen but cleave his general down (he felt the BSB was more important at this point). I win but he holds. Posted Image Turn5 WoC He kills the wizard and over runs, killing the Mortar the next turn. I cannot get the BSB or Chosen but all the units also survive. Posted Image Nice tidy victory for the Empire. Glittering Scales was the MVP, really making those stubborn Greatswords resilient. The conga line with unit champs at the head were winners as well. |
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| DarkSchneider | Apr 11 2012, 05:30 PM Post #159 |
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Clanlord
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Congas are something I didn't expect from you....some time ago in a battle rep you said you didn't use the "fast reform and move" trick to get some marauders into a house which was more than 4" away, because you didn't feel it was right....I know that congas are perfectly legal (and having cheap stubborn/unbreakable units just calls for it), it' the "champion in front" trick I find a little over-exploiting the rules. |
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| Hinge | Apr 12 2012, 05:25 AM Post #160 |
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Exalted Guardian
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I am not opposed to Conga lines in general, I feel they are pretty easy to counter and are not as easy to pull off as many people seem to think. They really are only useful when facing a few, very large units. What I took issue with was the prohibition of entering a building while marching and using the conga line to extend the base move to be the equivalent of marching and then entering the building. |
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| DarkSchneider | Apr 12 2012, 05:53 PM Post #161 |
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Clanlord
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I use congas very rarely, but I never put the champ on front, it just gives me a bad feeling...i know that by raw is not cheating, but it feels (and looks) so bad I try to avoid it. How would you counter ot anyway? If you have a moderate size unit it's very hard to escape it. |
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| rothgar13 | Apr 13 2012, 12:39 AM Post #162 |
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Clanlord
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It's counterable if you have people striking at different Initiatives. The fast guy murders the champ, everyone else gets at the tasty unit underneath. |
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| DarkSchneider | Apr 13 2012, 10:29 PM Post #163 |
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Clanlord
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Anyway, Hinge, I think the new empire book is quite favorable to the MSU strategy. I know flaggies are not so over the top like before, but they are still an unbreakable, 12 points unit, capable of hitting hard. Then you have the new detachment rule, which means if you take a Greatsword mother unit, you can have two stubborn detachments. Knights also got cheaper, and you even have the stubborn ones now! And the witch hunters for the fluff of your army, too ;) |
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| Hinge | Apr 14 2012, 01:05 AM Post #164 |
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Exalted Guardian
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As mentioned, having a hero with a higher init helps, but one of the biggest weakness of the conga line are the flanks. A well balanced army should have units that can engage the conga line in the flank. Then a Conga of unbreakable troops really just becomes a very expensive one turn road bloc/redirector. The tactic is only really useful when facing a points denial army built around several very large blocks. My opponent’s mistake was putting all of the units that would have mitigated conga lines off to one side where I could neutralize them. If he had staggered his deployment, it would have been much more difficult to pull off. |
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| Sawdust | Apr 16 2012, 06:18 AM Post #165 |
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The Chosen
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Thanks for the interesting read Hinge! I've had a really great time reading this and I find myself pondering on new ways to utilise my units and how they complement each other. Really good work :) Though I haven't really grasped the concept of clipping. Can someone please explain it to me? |
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4:46 PM Jul 11