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| Hinge's Ramblings | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 16 2011, 01:26 PM (13,970 Views) | |
| Dekion | Jul 14 2012, 09:01 AM Post #196 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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Have you every used Chaos spawn? I know they are eradict but can they be usefull? |
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| blackperoxide | Jul 14 2012, 12:17 PM Post #197 |
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Slave
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Hinge I want to say thank you first for your Bat reps, explanations, and the insight into your style of play. I have taken my time reading over your posts and others in this thread and have learned...alot. I have only been playing warhammer since Dec and just over the past two months of trying out MSU, it has changed the way I play and enjoy this game. One thing I find remarkable is how previously I won matches with knights and Khorne warriors and it seemed to leave a bad taste in peoples mouth. Now I sometimes table an opponent, losing very few units or even models and people seem to take it much better in-stride. Keep up the good work and good luck at those tourney's. |
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| Hinge | Jul 16 2012, 12:49 AM Post #198 |
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Exalted Guardian
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@BP- Thank you. Your feedback is much appreciated :D . Like you, I find that winning with MSU tends to leave your opponent with fewer hard feelings. This is pretty important to my approach to tournaments, where I usually pull good soft scores. Oddly, I have 4 Best Sports Awards and I received them all while going undefeated! Of course it is much harder to be gracious in defeat and this is something I have worked even harder on. After all, it is only a game. After my experience at Adepticon, I believe most of the Warhammer community needs to work on this. It has been a while since I added anything to this thread. Two items that have been rolling around and I will work on this week are: Quake City Rumble-As a comp judge, I had the opportunity to look at all 15 WoC lists. I thought I would share some observations. MSU Strategic principals. I have started writing these posts three times and never finished. I recently read a post by Swordmaster over at the Warhammer Forum on HE and MSU and it inspired me to finally finish my own. Hinge @Dekion I have toyed around with spawn. I really do not like them. Frankly, they are far too slow and I have less of an ability to angle them the way I want. I would rather bring more dogs or some horsemen. |
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| Dekion | Aug 13 2012, 08:49 PM Post #199 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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What are your feelings on Daemon Princes? |
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| Hinge | Aug 13 2012, 11:45 PM Post #200 |
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Exalted Guardian
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I like them. Now, to be very clear, they are a suboptimal choice for WoC. That does not mean they cannot be effective while adding represent a great change of pace and added variety. If I had not gone into playing a Carnosuar the last year, I would have given a DP a serious try in tournament play. I think you will need to design a list around this model. The list will need to not only play to its strengths but should be effective even if the DP is lost early. Hinge |
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| Dekion | Aug 14 2012, 12:33 AM Post #201 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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I was thinking bout making him Khorne based. |
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| Hinge | Aug 14 2012, 05:20 AM Post #202 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Just be careful what combats you get him in. I would almost always go for combo charges. |
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| Dekion | Aug 14 2012, 09:27 AM Post #203 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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thank you for the help |
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| Swordmaster of Hoeth | Aug 14 2012, 06:49 PM Post #204 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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Greetings Hinge! It took me some time to locate your topic and then to read it but I am very glad I did it. You have a huge tournament experience and since some MSU principles are the same for many armies which use this style I found many of your advice very useful. I am glad you started to use Battle Chronicler as it always makes much easier to understand what happened in the game. I will be coming back to read and re-read your reports and valuable suggestions for sure. I have one question, if you don't mind answering to the "enemy" of your chosen army :) Have you had a chance to play against another MSU army? If yes it would be great to know what are your observations. Personally I find it completely different but very interesting challenge as usual advantages are countered in each army and you have to look more into details, often based on particular army special rules. Cheers! |
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| Hinge | Aug 15 2012, 01:28 AM Post #205 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Swordmaster- Welcome to COTEC! I am making an assumption you are the author of the excellent MSU blog over at Warhammer Forum. For my fellow Chaos followers that have not seen this blog, you can find it at: Swordmaster's MSU Bat Reps Swordmaster may be a pointy eared pansy, but he knows what he is talking about. His Warhammer philosophy mirrors my own and he writes about it much more elegantly then I do. Check out page 11 for his strategic principals. The Bat Reps are excellent as well. As far as you being the enemy, well I will be joining you soon. I change armies every tournament season. The first year of 8th was WoC, the second was Lizards. I thought about going back to WoC since it is the army I love and they are putting a new AB out, but I was inspired by your MSU HE and will be playing HE this upcoming year. I guess I better join the Uthluan Forum and sissify my wardrobe. To answer your question. I have yet to face a true MSU army with the WoC. Certainly armies are deploying more and more “chaff” backed up by several hammers. Cavalry is making a comeback as well, and these units tend to be small (5-6). As I think about facing off against another MSU army, I agree in that it would be a very different challenge. Hinge |
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| Vermillion | Aug 15 2012, 06:20 AM Post #206 |
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Exalted Guardian
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as I have been promising myself to go back to having a high elf army for many years now (still have the remnants of a 4th ed army!) thank you for the link Hinge. I've become a fan of MSU/MMU style of play since starting getting the chance to play properly in 8th ed eschewing the "must horde everything" mentality, and your thread here has been interesting reading while I have been developing my own style of play. Strange to see cavalry making a comeback, is this just with warriors or many other armies as well? I've always tried to get 5 knights in my army whenever possible as I have always felt they were a big enough hitter with enough durability for the unit to justify it's cost, plus the speed does help. and ethereals, my paranoia has been justified! |
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| Hinge | Aug 15 2012, 07:27 AM Post #207 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Empire is where I am seeing the most increased usage. Knights as core. IC knights are great and even better are the stubborn Reiksguard. Frankly, a Cav oriented Empire list is very playable. Of course Bretts, a much underrated army book IMO. Seeing VC Black knight buses pretty frequently, though I think there are better ways to go about VC. Finally WoC. There were many (both small and large) units of Chaos Knights among the 15 WoC lists at QCR. Some experimentation with Cold One Knights but nothing consistent yet. Just a reminder that the majority of the tournaments I attend are in California and Texas, so that is what I am basing my observations on. |
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| Swordmaster of Hoeth | Aug 15 2012, 08:26 AM Post #208 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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Hi Hinge! Indeed I am the person responsible for writing up this monstrosity of an article. I have even updated it but you need to go to Ulthuan to check it as I have found out there is a limit to how many words one can write in a single post :D I started a separate topic so that I can update it with more experience I hope to get in any upcoming games (I had a break but I am trying to get back to playing and battle reports writing). I am very glad you like my article and reports, especially considering the fact that I haven't played MSU prior to 8th edition and I do not have much of tournament experience either. My opponents are not easy foe to win against but some of them are also known for taking unorthodox army lists hence I am more used to playing against things other players do not take. At the same time I lack experience in playing against many typical tough tournament builds. I will try to change it somehow (Universal Battle helps here a lot to play against players thousand miles away :)). I like the challenge too! It is interesting that there are more and more MSU armies around. Some of them seem to be natural candidates like Wood Elves. But I have played already against MSU Dwarves and MSU Daemons for example and they make a tough but interesting opponents too. A lot happens in the movement phase as you might expect but it is more about feint and counter-feint or plans within plans approach. As one of my regular opponents (Eastern Barbarian from Daemonic Legion) plays MSU DoC you can count on such bat reps from me at some stage. :) I am looking forward to reading about your own approach to pansies :) In the meantime I have another question. WoC army you play with has only Hellcannon as a shooting element. Sometimes you don't even take that. Of course WoC armies are not designed to shoot. However some shooting support can help to win you the game of light forces. How do you compensate for that? Cheers! |
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| Hinge | Aug 15 2012, 11:09 AM Post #209 |
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Exalted Guardian
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@ Swordmaster- Thanks for directing me over to the Ulthuan site and a re-read of your article. I am just as impressed as the first time I read it. :rock: A couple of comments. The list I have at the start of my thread is the list I took to the first 8th ed. tourney here on the west coast of the US, a month after 8th ed came out. Everyone was heading straight for massive units. My list design was partly dictated by models I had (I only was able to paint 14 warriors in the month) and had a strong tie back to my 7th ed list. Much to my surprise, it walked through the SoCal Slaughter, earning the highest score in tourney history. While the list has gone through some modifications (trending towards more MSU and multi purposing), the bones have stayed the same. The marauder units keep getting smaller. I would change them both to flails since they are not meant for sustained combat, but I am proud of my GW marauder conversions, so they will stay. I put in a second chariot in favor of the trolls. I love the trolls but the chariot the chariot rocks. Dual chariots can create a threat zone that many things do not want to enter. My list is more character heavy then yours. However, the third character is immensely useful. It hits like a ton of bricks, is durable, and can fly. BC Roar always seems to plink a wound off of something that ends up being critical later. I never felt the need for shooting. BC Roar and Flick kill some chaff but it is the units themselves that do the real work. The chariots, disc hero, and marauder cav are great at clearing out opposing chaff. Few redirectors can beat them in combat. With combat reform, I can angle to be annoying, or flee back through my lines, leaving my opponent to face off against my main line units. Spacing usually dictates my decisions. Eagles are a challenge and my regular opponents will reserve them behind the lines to protect them until needed. However, this gives me a little more control of the board earlier in the engagement. WoC lends itself to MSU. Most units hit extremely hard and are very durable. There is little differentiation in leadership values between troops and characters and it is easy to mitigate panic tests, allowing you to spread out. BTW, when I got into Warhammer during 7th ed., one of my club mates was Machiras, who you link in your article. Best general I have ever played against and he would shred me :-/ . My lists got progressively faster with smaller and more numerous units, so my MSU roots run deep. I am looking forward to the challenge of Helfs. The first major tourney will be in November and I have received a challenge from one of the Texans. He is packing Ogres with all the filth. I suspect you and I may be having some conversations over on the Helf Forum after I get some practice games in. ;) Hinge |
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| Swordmaster of Hoeth | Aug 15 2012, 12:53 PM Post #210 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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Hi Hinge! Thanks! I am really glad you found time to read my article again. I also apologize for not linking you directly but I already feel like trespassing with a nickname like mine on the WoC forum. :) It is WoC topic after all so if the discussion deviates to much to the different army then I don't think it might be disrespectful. I must admit that the thing I like a lot about WoC army list is that it gives you the opportunity to pack a lot of S5 attacks from core section. No wonder you don't need shooting that much. Also, with cheap Marauders you can have some numbers to speak about while Warriors are very durable in comparison to, for instance, Swordmasters :) I envy you that you had a chance to play against Machiara himself. :o He is a legend and I read everything he wrote as soon as I have found his battle glade. Back then I played on a rare occasion among small group of friends and having small collection of models I could only dream about incorporating his ideas. If you still keep in touch with him, please pass the greetings from the humble swordmaster who is very grateful for his scrolls of tactical wisdom :) Ogres are tough indeed! :) I also know some of the players tend to go towards their version of MSU which probably is more like Multiple Bull Units but also uses a movement phase to their great advantage. Coming back to your WoC list I really like that lone hero on a disc. I often thought it is a great thing to have a character like that as he is your equivalent of special forces and can perform a lot of tasks no ordinary unit can (or at least not easily). The "problem" is that the cost of such character is usually at least as much as one of the regiments. I don't know how it is in the case of your army list but I found out it is very hard for me to get rid of any single regiment. Speaking of characters, having a BSB mounted is also a very tempting idea, also due to modelling purposes. I am surprised yours is not a target of snipers often. And I admire the way you use him (or characters in general) to set juicy targets in order to draw the enemy into a trap. In your posts you often mentioned writing about buildings and their tactical use. You also mentioned you might write an article about that particular topic. I looked quickly through tactics section but I was not successful yet. Could you direct me to it if I simply missed it? Thanks in advance! |
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