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Hinge's Ramblings
Topic Started: Aug 16 2011, 01:26 PM (13,969 Views)
Hinge
Exalted Guardian
@ swordmaster



Here is the link. I only got through the first two chapters before I petered out.

Hinge's Building article


I hear you about keeping the discussion WoC oriented. It is why I have avoided posting my experiences about my lizards here. However, I do feel that once you strip out the Helf nuances from your tactics article, the majority of it can be applied to any MSU build.

Indeed, characters, especially WoC characters are expensive. With troops that really can function without them, it is hard to justify anything beyond the basics. However the disc dude is a regiment on his own. The combination of hard hitting, durability, and maneuverability provide such a large scope to employee him. Warmachine hunter, ethereal hunter, monster hunter, chaff clearer, extra combat rez. He does all these. One of his biggest roles is to hit a flank of a horde unit while something like the warshrine or a chariot hits the other. It is harder for people to see this coming then setting up a couple of regiments to do the same. The Horde is pinned in place. I will win many of the combats, so the horde is one bad steadfast test from getting run down. If I break, swiftstride will likely get me away and the horde unit is pulled way out of position. Just too useful. I was thinking more like the airmobile brigades in Vietnam but Special Forces is an apt analogy as well.

The BSB has been sniped by a warmachine 4 times out of 50+ games, dying twice. People either do not think of it, are more worried about the disc guy, or I have mitigated the danger somehow (placing the warshrine or trolls such to catch the cannon balls). His mobility has proven to be worth the risk.

I believe that a critical challenge in warhammer is that we play in an environment where the players have near perfect knowledge. The player knows where every unit is, what it can do (especially with open lists), where the terrain is, etc. No competent enemy commander will willing uncover a point that is vulnerable for him. As I play Warhammer, I really try to be creative in tackling this challenge. Using my Sorcerer as bait was a solution I came upon to entice reluctant foes to charge what is obviously an anvil. The fact that a WoC Sorcerer is one of the tougher Csters in the game, even without any defensive magic items, helps. Same with using my BSB as a redirector. It is conventional wisdom that you must have a L4 and BSB and intentionally putting these models in danger really throws my opponent for a loop. Hopefully when I do so it gives me the edge I need to win the game.

Quote:
 
Napoleon said the nature of strategy consists of always having, even with a weaker army, more forces at the point of attack or at the point where one is attacked than the enemy
This is the core principal of MSU. It allows us to overcome the problem of perfect knowledge through tactics such as disguising our intentions, forcing a series of sub-optimal decisions upon our opponent, sacrificing what may seem to be a indispensable piece of our army, etc. to allow us to bring greater force then our enemy at the point of decision.

Sorry for the rant.

Hinge

PS

Dropped an e-mail to Machaira for you. Also told him he needs to get back into Warhammer!
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Swordmaster of Hoeth
Warrior of the Chamber
Hi Hinge!

Thanks a lot for your answers.

I am very curious about Building article you wrote as this is the aspect of the game a rarely use and in my recent game against Dwarves I made a huge mistake due to the fact I misunderstood said rules. Cost me that game too. Ah well, hard lessons are the one I remember the best :)

You make me think again about characters and their role in the army. It is very true that they can be and should be considered as units on their own. And although you sacrifice at least one drop in deployment phase you make up for it with their mobility. I have a feeling, however, your army has a little better options in protecting them since you have tough chariots (or warshrine) or multiple wound creatures as trolls. In any case they are worth considering also because they add, well, character to the army :)

It is an interesting thing you say about my own ramblings on MSU. I aimed at writing something from HE point of view rather than general article. I do not think I have enough experience yet to advice anybody but I wanted to share my observations and hope that it would spark some interest. It was great to get some feedback from other players and I am glad that it is considered useful also for other armies. MSU is a general concept after all so maybe it is not that surprising that my own observations are similar to what other players see.

It can be quite intimidating to play against the best players but I agree it also gives you the best opportunity to learn the game to the fullest. I have observed recently, that I would like to challenge myself against the tough builds out there too. Before, probably because I knew I lack experience, I was shy to play against very strong armies. However, games with MSU army somehow showed me that there is something I can do. Often my plans were destroyed with my army but what was great in these games that I managed to put up the fight and what is more I knew what could have been done better. As you say it also inspires to come up with some new ideas. Now, how am I going to beat that VC army with Lord on Dragon and 2 Terrorgeists? I don't know yet but I will face it for sure :)

I like the quote you mentioned. I think many military commanders use that principle and although it is a little too arrogant to use the same terminology in the case of the game of toy soldiers it is also true. The more I play MSU games and in particular against other MSU armies, more and more comparison to chess comes across too. I don't think it is a coincidence :)

Getting back to the discussion about WoC MSU. What type of armies did you find the most difficult to play against? Some of them can be the same as for other MSU forces but maybe there are some particular match ups which are in particular a tough opposition. For example, I was challenged on Ulthuan that I do not really play against proper filth and that armies with a lot of shooting or with some nasty fliers will eat me for breakfast.

And thanks for rant! I have a feeling I am not the only one who likes it :)

Cheers!

P.S. Thanks for sending e-mail to Machiara. Yes, it would be great if he came back!
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MyNameDidntFit
The Dark Prince
Hey Hinge,

I'm curious as to what you'd think would be a plausible for an all-plate WoC MSU army? Would it be viable? I'm tempted to give it a go (as I currently play a few different all-plate builds) but won't have the chance for a couple weeks.
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Hinge
Exalted Guardian
I don't see why not. I think you would want to go lots of 10-12 man units though. You are going to give up a little flexibility with no marauders.
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rothgar13
Member Avatar
Clanlord
Now that we're on the subject, do you think there'd be a place for Knights in an MSU or MMU army, or does the unit's price (10 Knights with full command, the Mark of Tzeentch, and the Blasted Standard clock in at a whopping 510 points, for example) work against it in that regard?
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Hinge
Exalted Guardian
I think there is a place for knights but not the big bus. More like 5-6. Still pretty expensive and more of a support role then a hammer unit on its own. I think a unit of ten makes it the focus of a list. Could building the rest of the list as a more MSU style work? I think so. This gives you a ton of hard hitting chaff to pave the way for the knights while also protecting their flanks. A big bus of Chaos knights is intimidating and will focus your opponent’s attention. This may open up opportunities for the rest of the army. The down side is keeping the units together to support each other. The knights can really find themselves out on their own.

As a side, I am really seeing the big Chaos Knight bus with several characters on the tourney scene now. Both at QCR (CA) and Bayou (TX) they were much present. Add that WoC are now one of the most numerous tournament armies (based on my limited sample size), start working on ways to deal with this unit.
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rothgar13
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Clanlord
This is something I'm actually working toward - your MSU army has inspired me to make an MMU Chaos army of my own, but I plan to go about it a bit differently. The main difference is that I am bringing this Chaos Knight unit because it lets me field my favorite BSB build, and I'm heavily considering bringing a Chaos Lord on a Disc over the L4 Wizard, just to see if it will work. Could I trouble you with a link to my list on this thread in search of advice, good sir?
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Deleted User
Deleted User

I saw an army recently with 3 Jugger heroes and 6 Knights, it tore through units like a bag of leaves. But, I'm just not sure about dumping that many points into a single unit. And as Hinge said, it becomes the focus of the list really. I'd be interested to see what you come up with though Rothgar.
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Hinge
Exalted Guardian
@Rothgar-

I am always willing to throw my two cents in.
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rothgar13
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Clanlord
Thanks! Here's a link to the two lists I have so far.
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Vermillion
Exalted Guardian
From how I have been running my lists I feel a regiment of knights fits perfectly. They are a points sink, running MoT, musician and standard with blasted standard when points allow, but are durable and hard hitting enough to prove worth it.
The high movement value and swiftstride increases their charge range, so can help out where needed most of the time, but most importantly to me they have magical attacks. even without them 10 str 5 attacks and 5 str 4 attacks from the unit is a respectable support output, even for hitting chaff hard and overruning into BSB/general holding units or in my last game vs VC taking down crypt horrors fast and hard.

The biggest threat I think I have come across is anything which ignores armour saves.
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Hinge
Exalted Guardian
Indeed. The other observation is people are using Warshrines to buff their buses now. I guess it is a back lash against Chosen.

I have set up nice flank charges on several occasions and bounced off chaos knights. It is why the Empire I have been playing around with as well as the Helfs I am putting together both pack Lore of Metal. Plague of Rust and Searing Doom make Chaos Knights poop their draws.
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Vermillion
Exalted Guardian
I had been considering metal in general as a highly attractive option for the buffs and debuffs, any damage as a bonus with some lists.

Found warshrines to also be effective tarpits as well with my lists, the only thing I'm trying to make work and failing to do so is HW/shield or GW marauders except the former in a small unit as a bunker.
Ofcourse the buffs lending a hand from the shrine here and there while never game changing are always welcome and useful.
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Swordmaster of Hoeth
Warrior of the Chamber
Greetings!

I had an opportunity to play against MSU WoC army with Chaos Knights and there is definitely a place for that regiment in the MSU army. They are expensive but they are also very fast, very well protected and they have nice and steady output damage. Their magical attacks are also very handy.

If you are interested in checking details about the army I talk about and how it trashed my own force :) here is a link for you to the report: 2400 vs. Warriors of Chaos

As to the size of units in MSU army it is always arbitrary. For some armies, like O&G or Skaven, 20+ models in a regiment is still small and they still can produce army lists with many deployment drops. There is no rule saying you cannot have horde regiments or expensive units/characters either. You simply need to know what you want to do and what are the consequences of your choice.

For example, I noticed that if I have 20+ strong regiment then all templates are directed against it, no matter if it is really the most important target. The same goes with the most expensive piece on the board, somehow people ten to hunt it down if they think they can even if other regiments might pose more immediate threat.

MSU is a concept that heavily relies on multiple drops in deployment and movement phase to create favorable combats. If you like do it with the use of some bigger and/or expensive units/characters then by all means go for it! It is your army and your version of the style after all. :)

Cheers!
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PrinceofPleasure
The Chosen
Vermillion
Aug 18 2012, 07:36 AM
I had been considering metal in general as a highly attractive option for the buffs and debuffs, any damage as a bonus with some lists.

Found warshrines to also be effective tarpits as well with my lists, the only thing I'm trying to make work and failing to do so is HW/shield or GW marauders except the former in a small unit as a bunker.
Ofcourse the buffs lending a hand from the shrine here and there while never game changing are always welcome and useful.
Metal would be a great option if you know... we had the option :P

Personally I've found warshrines to be really underwhelming. As a buff unit they are way to random. As a tarpit, they aren't stubburn, don't any active combat res, don't generate and static combat res.

I`ve been using chariots in a similar fashion. Instead of buffing the unit I just throw them in combats with the same unit. d6+1 S5 + 4s5 is going to out do any of the buffs short of Divine greatness. And I can use it to kill cav ad such.
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