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Hinge's Ramblings
Topic Started: Aug 16 2011, 01:26 PM (13,968 Views)
rothgar13
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Clanlord
I'm in agreement with the Prince on that one. The only thing Warshrines are good at jamming are monsters - everything else generates too much static CR for a non-Stubborn model to stay in front of.
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PrinceofPleasure
The Chosen
On drops. I'm currently rocking 10 including Characters. My list is more of an MMU type but the theory is similar enough that I can atleast try and contribute I suppose. My drops are as follows.

2x chaff
2x redeplyable (dragon ogres, and unit of 12 marauder Horsemen)
2x blocks (8 trolls, and 21 chaos warriors)
2x support (2 chaos chariots)
1x Pivot (hellcannon)

The best piece of advice I've been given concerning playing MSU, is plan for the future, decide in the future. Meaning you need to know what your going to be doing turns before you do it. But exatly how should depend on the shifting tides of battle. Don't get caught up on the specifics of your plan, let the tide of battle direct you. It may end up that you need to use or include imperfect tools in your list.
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Vermillion
Exalted Guardian
Ah, meant metal for high elves mainly, though third eyeing it would be an option if anyone ever took it ;).

My 2k list already has 3 chariots in it, so can't fit any more in, hence grabbed warshines in the 2.5k list, with MoT I've found them not too bad, but then things like chariots and shrines I throw in supporting roles mainly or rely on that ward save to give me a turn or two extra holding something with the shrines.
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Mungojerrie
The Chosen
I have been following your approach to msu on several different forums Hinge! I really appreciate the read. Because of your threads I have started thinking about building my own msu army. I want to keep my WOC as they are and preferably play some of the elves as an msu army. What army would you recommend as being played with the msu style? I am thinking that dark elves would be the best bet with shades, dark riders, dark pegs and maybe wich elves. Another thought has been lizardmen. Advice would be most welcome!
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Hinge
Exalted Guardian
A good MSU army needs access to lots of attacks per model (preferably ST5) and access chaff. Here are armies I think can do MSU well.

WoC- Elite, durable, and hard hitting infantry and cav. Cheap hard hitting infantry. Hounds/fast cav. Flying characters.

HE – Very hard hitting, decent shooting, eagles. Not durable.

DE – excellent core, lots of attacks with re-rolls. Harpies, Fast Cav, and hydras. Flying characters. The down side is that they need help in getting the ST of the attacks up.

BoC- Cheap core, lots of chariots, lots of chaff. Leadership can be a problem.
Brettonian-Very durable troops, fast, fast cav (no idea why no one uses these), likely will get away when broken (preserving points), Peg Knights and trebs.

WE- Almost mandatory to play MSU. Lots of shooting, great skirmish troops, eagles. Even more fragile than the other elves.

I actually think dwarves and ogres could pull it off but have not thought them through much. Lizards are interesting. Great chaff (skinks, terradons, sallies, etc). Base infantry unit is excellent and I believe could easily be run in units of 12-18. The problem is the Slann is so freaking good that it is hard not to take him. He then becomes the center piece of the army and the army build revolves around him.
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DarkSchneider
Clanlord
Hi everybody, back to cotec after a long time, I'd like to throw in a question: are warriors really that effective in a MSU build? They hit hard, IF you roll good with attacks (even against a decent unit you're going to wound with 1/3of your attacks) and if they're not up against something with small frontage (monsters, tough characters). They SEEM durable, but really T4 and 4+save are not that good when paired with low body count. Finally their price is too high to make them expendables, even in small units (14 men are reasonably worth around 220 points). Wouldn't it be better to spend those points otherwise? More marauders maybe? Or even throgg+ a couple of small trolls units...
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Vermillion
Exalted Guardian
WoC work great as MSU. Had a game last night where a VC player was surprised at the amount of drops I had for deployment, and that was with a unit of knights and 2 units of 18 warriors included in there at 2k.
Impact hits and units supporting each other to get flank/rear charges have been great. The only thing I am debating is my marauder setup. As I am using smaller regiments GW simply do not work, too many naked marauders die before they swing, but as I discovered last night, ending up at str 3 can be moderately annoying when facing T5 crypt horrors. Also, my attack and wound rolls always suck on anything frenzied ;).

I am considering using marauder horsemen again for extra manouverability, but feel that unlike the knights which have been working well in a unit of 5, I will need 10 horsemen and frankly do not want to change anything out of my list to take them as it has performed well.

As everyones local metagame is different give it a try, even without reading all of hinges tactics I have went this route from the off really as hordes just didn't do it for me when I dabbled in them. Probably my throwback mindset to previous editions helped too, and having a chariot fetish. *strokes the pretty preciousesssssss*
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rothgar13
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Clanlord
That said, one of the beauties of Hinge's list is that it's pretty easy to strike middle ground between whole-hog MSU and having one Horde - just combine the units of Marauders into one big block and you're set. I have an alternative list built this exact way, in case 20-man Flail Slaanesh Marauders aren't to my taste.
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
Swordmaster of Hoeth
Aug 18 2012, 10:08 AM
Greetings!

I had an opportunity to play against MSU WoC army with Chaos Knights and there is definitely a place for that regiment in the MSU army. They are expensive but they are also very fast, very well protected and they have nice and steady output damage. Their magical attacks are also very handy.

If you are interested in checking details about the army I talk about and how it trashed my own force :) here is a link for you to the report: 2400 vs. Warriors of Chaos

As to the size of units in MSU army it is always arbitrary. For some armies, like O&G or Skaven, 20+ models in a regiment is still small and they still can produce army lists with many deployment drops. There is no rule saying you cannot have horde regiments or expensive units/characters either. You simply need to know what you want to do and what are the consequences of your choice.

For example, I noticed that if I have 20+ strong regiment then all templates are directed against it, no matter if it is really the most important target. The same goes with the most expensive piece on the board, somehow people ten to hunt it down if they think they can even if other regiments might pose more immediate threat.

MSU is a concept that heavily relies on multiple drops in deployment and movement phase to create favorable combats. If you like do it with the use of some bigger and/or expensive units/characters then by all means go for it! It is your army and your version of the style after all. :)

Cheers!
Look at the list it isn't really msu, if your running a WoC army MSU then you should be looking at units of 12 warriors, I use to do this with 3 units of warriors (at 2k), then you have your hounds and various support units. You can very easily out deploy someone with the this style of list however it lacks the staying power.

16-20 warriors seems like the standard size unit if you don't want to horde. generally I think its either 16 in 8x2 for pure killing power, 18 in a 6x3 which is very effective against horde units on 25mm bases, it forces them to lose out of on attacks, and generally has the ranks and staying power to beat a horde unit. then you have unit of 20 in 5x4 which is generally only for MoT + HW&SH.

MSU with WoC works far better with a fast army, you have to chaff drops to force his main force down then you can load up on a flank and overwhelm it working your way across his army while using you hordes to block his army from reacting to your advance. It doesn't work so well with infantry because of the larger frontage and lower movement, at the end of the day your opponent will have twice as long to prepare for you advance unless he's rushing head first at you.
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Hinge
Exalted Guardian
rothgar13
Sep 14 2012, 09:21 PM
That said, one of the beauties of Hinge's list is that it's pretty easy to strike middle ground between whole-hog MSU and having one Horde - just combine the units of Marauders into one big block and you're set. I have an alternative list built this exact way, in case 20-man Flail Slaanesh Marauders aren't to my taste.
indeed. My son recently played in a tournament with my army but combined the Maruders into a 40 man horde unit, dropped the disc hero (giving the board to the Sorc) and adding a unit of knights. Turned out to be a highly effective list.
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Vermillion
Exalted Guardian
I have been playing round with flail khorne marauders in units of 24 to see if I can get on with it. Also as my dice are cursed of late I need all the attacks I can roll and miss with :D
On the whole with large numbers of MI I tend to face more attacks and itp while frenzied seemed the better option, but again it depends on the local meta, msu is so adaptable its a great setup.
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DarkSchneider
Clanlord
No thoughts on the "warriors problem" ?
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Kormak
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High Executioner of Khorne
DarkSchneider
Sep 15 2012, 08:22 AM
No thoughts on the "warriors problem" ?
I don't find I need marauders with my list, they are very good for the points but I prefer the more small elite feel, you have a lot of options for support but I think your best options are chaos trolls (if you don't mind baby sitting them) and chaos knights. You need plenty of hounds which can also function as moving cover.
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rothgar13
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Clanlord
Hiya Hinge,

Just checking in to ask your thoughts regarding our new units, and whether we can expect either of them to make an appearance in your lists in the future. I think the Skullcrushers could be appealing for an MSU list, as 3 of them with a musician can cause quite a lot of damage while clocking in at less than 200 points.
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Hinge
Exalted Guardian
Honestly I have not gotten much hobby time in the last two months. That started to change a couple weeks ago. Got three games in with Empire last weekend and sat in on the West Coast Hammertime podcast.

I think I will wait until the new book comes out before updating my WoC. At first glance, MSU skullcrushers would fit nicely. I have seen what small units of Empire chickens can do! I would have to play around with them before making a final determination. Heck, I have not even had a chance to buy the WD.

I did hear Ben Curry talk about a build on his podcast that was centered on a large unit of these guys. Frankly I think it is a terrible build (2 units of Warriors for core, huge unit of skull crushers, characters to flavor). Too few drops and easily avoided IMO. Admittedly the UK scene seems to feature more 20-nil style scoring tourneys v. W/L/D that is prevalent in the US as well as some heavier comp. Perhaps in that sort of meta his suggestions make more sense. I also recognize the characters (I think he has 5!) can be used as individual units, would be tough to deal with, and could rip up chaff. I just see my WoC, LM, and new Empire list being able to handle the list he suggests. I would much rather build a more traditional WoC list with a small unit of skull crushers as support.

However, I do have a friend who plays a large unit of jugs in his demon list. It is very effective and tough to deal with. It is backed by three units of Bloodletters and some furies, so pretty damn Hard. He often keeps the characters in the second rank and only moves them up when he feels it is necessary.

Hinge

PS After almo next week, I will be adding a chapter to my buildings tactics.

Edited by Hinge, Oct 28 2012, 03:16 PM.
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