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Hinge's Ramblings
Topic Started: Aug 16 2011, 01:26 PM (13,981 Views)
Hinge
Exalted Guardian
Thanks DarSch, I appreciate the feedback.

I write a battle report after every tourney for my club, so I have some decent material to draw on and help me recall the games.

I am also heading down to the SoCal Slaughter this weekend to defend my title, though I will be leaving my WoC behind. I will try to get one more done before hand though.

Hinge
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Hinge
Exalted Guardian
I am going to take a different tack with my next report. To mix it up, I am playing a LM list that applies some of my MSU principals. I will be taking this list to the SoCal Slaughter this weekend and took it to the East Bay Open in August. I had a great time playing it and was pleasantly surprised (went 3-1-1) at how well it did.

East Bay Open August 2011

A brand new tourney, it is primarily a 40K event with side tourney’s for Warmachine and Fantasy. There were only 20 players for Fantasy. The tourney was set up as no holds barred. No comp, no sports (other than a thumbs down that would draw the TO), no paint. Straight battle to determine the winner. The lists certainly reflected this and they were all brutal.

I would take the following list. I found it to be fast and hard hitting.

Lord/Carney/Burning Blade/charmed shield/4+ ward/Other Tricksters shard.
Lvl2 Priest/Ancient/Cube
Suarus/BSB/Cold One/5+ward/shield/Dragon helm/venom of the firefly
25 Suarus, FC
28 skinks/3 Krox/Std/Mus
10 skinks/mus/std
10 skink skrimishers
10 skink skrimishers
5 chameleons
5 chameleons
3 Terradons
Salamander
Salamander
Steg

Game 3 v. WoC

3 25 man blocks of MoT Warriors (2 w/ shields one with Halberds). Banners-Rage (w/ Halberds), Flaming, Rapturous. Three units of dogs. Two hell Cannons. BSB had Doom Totem. Lvl4, MoT, Disc, Puppet, 3+ ward, some other stuff. Lvl2, Death, extra spell.

The scenario involved seizing more objectives (by occupying with a unit with a command model) then your opponent. There were four on the table, each player placing two.

My opponent castles up around two objectives in his deployment zone and spreads the dogs out so I cannot get the chameleons behind him.

I put the Skrox near one of the objectives, but forward, I do not want them panicking off the board. The small unit of skinks near another but able to threaten one of his if he moves off. I put the Carney and stegs center to use a building in the middle as cover but able to move towards my opponents open flank. The Suarus warriors opposite my opponents open flank. I put the chameleons near one dog, thinking to blow through it. 20 blowpipe shots and three javelins kill one dog. Ugh.

It is clear that my opponent is looking to panic my units off my objectives for the win. So I get aggressive I push the open flank. His block on the flank is the Halberd Warriors with the Banner of Rage who had been turning to face me as I swept around. The small steg has worked its way around to threaten the flank, the warriors threaten the front and the last steg was center, ready to hold a unit or charge the halberdiers as well. The carney is using its mobility to swing all the way around.

On my turn three, I charge a Hell Cannon with the carney lord. I place a unit of chameleon skinks in front of the Banner of Rage unit such that if they charge, the forced overrun will expose the flank to my Suarus as well as front and rear charges from the stegs. Finally, the HC survives the first round of combat with a single wound left. This is great, I will not need to overrun when I kill him next turn and will be able to reform while sitting in his backfield.

His turn three, he refuses to charge the skinks but his options to maneuver are limited as he is pinned in by the carney, skinks, and one of his units behind him. He reforms his center unit (with the Rap Banner and BSB) towards the open flank. I use the Cube to shut down his magic phase. Holding on to a scroll (or scroll like item) for a critical situation can be like a game of chicken and I choose to accept some Doom and Darkness spells early as well as both of my Sallies being destroyed. The gamble (especially the Doom and Darkness) paid off.

The trap is sprung. I charge the Halberdiers with the Suarus. Due to the positioning of the skinks in front, I only can maximize by clipping a corner. The only model in contact with the Warriors is my BSB, packing a 1+, 5++ save and T5. The steg in front goes into the unit as well, once again, my own skinks are in the way and I can only clip the other side. So I have brought a great deal of combat power and static rez into small frontage while minimizing my opponent’s ability to hit back. My ancient goes into the flank of the center unit, while the carney goes into its front. The Carney Lord also clips due to the Halberdiers being in the way. The Terradons park in front of the last unit of Warriors to keep them from getting involved.

The Halberdier Warriors break and are run down. The Suarus overrun into the second unit. My Carney Lord kills the BSB (I love the Other Trickster’s Shard). My opponent would make three insane courage rolls before finally breaking. Time is called at the end of turn five and I hold three of the objectives.

I view this as an example of using maneuver to tackle a much harder list. My opponent choose to play a passive game. Whether this was the scenario or just the list design, I don’t know. I do feel I would have been able to out maneuver him even so.


Hinge
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GeneralofChaos42
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The Puppet Master
Hinge
Aug 29 2011, 11:21 PM
Thanks DarSch, I appreciate the feedback.

I write a battle report after every tourney for my club, so I have some decent material to draw on and help me recall the games.

I am also heading down to the SoCal Slaughter this weekend to defend my title, though I will be leaving my WoC behind. I will try to get one more done before hand though.

Hinge

Hinge good luck at the Slaughter, hope to see a battle report.



GoC
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DarkSchneider
Clanlord
Hinge, I would like to know how you position your sorc lord in games.
he's on foot, and with no WS, like mine.
I'm having problems, fielding him in the chosen gives him a 4++ save, but only if they don't roll it as the first gift. He's in a tough unit, but they've got to advance to CC, and so he gets exposed to threats (tonight it was a Speculum Archlector). Finally, the unit is exposed to his miscasts, and being only 15 of them, every loss is heavy (expecially when miscast happens in turn one, before I get the 3++).

So, the actual problem is: al my units are running towards close combat, because I need every one of them, where should I put my SorcLord?
I'm not a fan of the tzeench disc lord, nor have any cavalry in the army to hide him in.
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GeneralofChaos42
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The Puppet Master
DarkSchneider
Aug 30 2011, 07:49 AM
Hinge, I would like to know how you position your sorc lord in games.
he's on foot, and with no WS, like mine.
I'm having problems, fielding him in the chosen gives him a 4++ save, but only if they don't roll it as the first gift. He's in a tough unit, but they've got to advance to CC, and so he gets exposed to threats (tonight it was a Speculum Archlector). Finally, the unit is exposed to his miscasts, and being only 15 of them, every loss is heavy (expecially when miscast happens in turn one, before I get the 3++).

So, the actual problem is: al my units are running towards close combat, because I need every one of them, where should I put my SorcLord?
I'm not a fan of the tzeench disc lord, nor have any cavalry in the army to hide him in.

Disc Riders are fantastic, he is so safe with the right magic items on him.
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Hinge
Exalted Guardian
Like you, I am not a big fan of the Disc Sorc Lord. I recognize the advantages of maneuverability but he just “feels” more exposed. Another solution is to provide the Lord with a good ward save, either with the Armor of Destiny or a Talisman. In the end, I have had some good luck with my kit.

The standard deployment is on the corner of the Chosen. I am more likely to get Divine Greatness before the game rather than during, so he tends to be a bit exposed. I have rarely had a miscast hurt the Chosen badly, the puppet helps here and I rarely am aiming for a big roll early in the game, especially if the unit does not have the 3++. Depending on the match up and what is coming down at me, I will either leave him in the unit or pop him out just before contact.

While leaving him in the unit is certainly a risk, he is no light weight. Packing a 3+/6++ is pretty damn good and being located on a corner can minimize the attacks hitting him. The unit is a bit of a trap as well. Seeing 12 models and a sorcerer and a BSB, I can usually get opponents to engage the unit rather than avoid/tar pit. Again, depending on match up, I may very well keep the additional defensive bonus my shrine throws, which he does benefit from. Of course monsters can be a problem since they can direct a boat load of attacks on the Sorc. However, a simple +1 armor (which is pretty easy to get) will likely see him survive a full on assault of a charging Hydra. If the Hydra manages to hold, steal the damn Shadow magic and enfeeble/wither the damn thing. I ever mention I hate Hydras.

I go 7 wide, so if I get the charge off, I aim to keep him out of contact if possible. In the end, he does see a fair amount of combat (so the magic weapon does see use, even in the absence of ethereal). He does not always survive a game. Life can be hard as a follower of Chaos and most of my wins depend more on the liberal application of massed ST 5 attacks at the right place and time rather than magic. Though magic makes it damn easier.

I also will not hesitate to jump out the back. You still have a 4+ LoS and it gets you out of the way of any big griblys. Again, this can be match up specific but is a surprisingly safe place to hide.

Another spot is in my Flails. I put him there when facing Skaven due to Dreaded 13th. Also, if there is a nice building to get into with the flails, might be a good place to tuck him (depends on building location). Flails rock when it comes to buildings.

Frankly, the speculum is a bitch for any warriors list to deal with. I would not draw any conclusions based on facing one. Well avoid the character carrying it with anything that is required to challenge.


Hinge
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GeneralofChaos42
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The Puppet Master
This is one we disagree opon Hinge, I played a lot of games with Tz Sorcerer on Disc, he never gets killed. In a unit it's going to see combat, on a Disc you can run all day. Plus with Warshrines and Trolls to screen with, it's so tough for a Bolt Thrower or Cannon Ball to touch him. The only good arguement is this, you want to run a Lv4 with Shadows, Death or Heavens.


GoC
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DarkSchneider
Clanlord
i did not mention that the miscast was on a two-dice roll :)
i rolled a 4 (no puppet), big blast
he got a wound, and i was incredibly lucky, killing just two chosens out of six with the 6++.
then, when he got killed by that stupid archlector, he had a 2+ (dropped to 5+ due to S6) and a 4++.........
I know, it was unlucky, and i shouldn't use it as a measure.
Point is, when he died he left me with no magic defense, and that brought me to an heavy loss.
My main mistake was to field from the beginning an exalted in the warriors (to benefit from blasted standard) which were supposed to get rid of the arch lector. I had the chance to charge him in turn 2, due to a stealed Birona on the warriors, but I didn't in fear of loosing the exalted. A very stupid mistake, I wasn't focused.
In the next turn, the lector charged the chosens with the sorc, and caused the wreckage. Warriors would have easily dealt with him.
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Hinge
Exalted Guardian
GeneralofChaos42
Aug 30 2011, 07:34 PM
This is one we disagree opon Hinge, I played a lot of games with Tz Sorcerer on Disc, he never gets killed. In a unit it's going to see combat, on a Disc you can run all day. Plus with Warshrines and Trolls to screen with, it's so tough for a Bolt Thrower or Cannon Ball to touch him. The only good arguement is this, you want to run a Lv4 with Shadows, Death or Heavens.


GoC

Never really felt he needed to be on a disk. I grant that the disk provides fantastic maneuverability, but I suspect his survival depends more on a 3++ ward and being ignored in favor of dealing with other elements of your army. You can run around on foot behind your troops, gain a 4+ LoS on top of the 3++ ward and will likely survive just as frequently.

I keep mine in a unit more often than not because I forgo the ward. Even then, he rarely dies. I started out with a good ward save on him but after three tourneys, decided to drop it. Partially it was to get a little comp bump, people get frustrated when all the characters have an excellent ward save, so I dropped it on what an opponent would consider the most important character. It was also an acknowledgment that I could save points with little increased risk.

Finally, there is a little meta going on in my game. Good players will not engage a big Chosen unit. They just will not and it will get tar pitted, redirected, fed crap. So I responded by making the Chosen a tempting target. First, make it small. 12 models do not look threatening. My club is full of highly experienced and accomplished tourney players. They know what Chosen can do. Yet time and again they cannot help themselves. It’s just 12 models they think. Now the mantra in Leadership 2 is “Do not engage the Chosen, Do not engage the Chosen”. So I had to bait the trap a little better. Put in the nice “soft” Sorc/general, a Tzeetch character that seems to have left his 3++ ward save at home, and the unit becomes even more tempting.

So I ask, if a group of experienced players sees this trick every week, discusses it over beer, and knows what I am trying to do, and still they have a tough time resisting the impulse to go after the Chosen unit, what happens when I show up to a tourney and my opponent has never seen an army like mine? They see “easy” points and will go after it with their biggest, nastiest hammer unit. It is utterly predictable and I use it to my advantage.

In my three tourney losses, the Chosen unit never engaged what I wanted. The example in this thread, Pendant lord with CoC locked it up. The other two losses were to fellow Ld2 members who used different methods to do the same. The Sorcerer survived all three of those games btw. However, I have never lost a tourney game where the Sorcerer died.

I get on one of these rants and I feel like I am telling the forum that my way is the way it has to be. That is not my intent. My goal is just to share my expereinces as a hard core tourney player, why I made certain choices, and let people draw their own conclusions and lessons. The disc Sorc is a fantastic build and I would not argue against it. I just took a different approach with a different goal in mind.

Hinge

PS @DarSch-Bring the Puppet!
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conjoy
Exalted Guardian
Huge kudos on the 'clipping' technique. Its not one my army composition allows for very much, but still a very interesting option.
Given the quality of our troops, I can't see it being useful as often as some other options.
I gather the crucial part it setting-it up is the position of the road-block unit and the presence of a flank threat if the road-block holds and/or their unit must overrun.
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DarkSchneider
Clanlord
Hinge, if you get the ward from the warshrine and the sorc leaves the unit, he will lose it, as stated by GW's FAQ.
By the way, thanks for the feedback, you really make this forum useful for tournament-involved discussions.

About your suggestion on pupper.......i know it's hard to leave it home.
But I find impossible to play without the scroll.
Scroll can simply save your game, not letting that nasty spell who could turn the game into a loss go trough.
Puppet is useful if the opponent gets a total power BEFORE getting into a point of the game when you simply cannot afford some spells to pass. I'm talking about combat enhancing lores, as shadow and light, which are very common in this days. We put a lot of effort into getting into close clombat where and when we want, a successful Birona or Okkam can easil scramble our plans.
Best thing is, of course, fielding both. This means 2 mages. This means an exalted less. I'm going to think about it, really.

Another point I came up to, is using a Nurgle Supreme Sorc.
I just love that lore. You've got plenty of useful spells, and you can cast anything with two- three dice max. It can do the same job as Shadow, killing Steam Tanks and Hydras, and enhancing my units in combat, via Fleshy Ab. and Curse of the Leeper.
This last one in particular, I think it's great. It can do almost the same job of Withering and Enfeebling Foe in just one spell, casting at a mere 11+. It also forces the opponent to use his power dice to dispel it. I can even cast it on a far away unit in the first turn, hoping he forgots to dispel it (things that happens).
And in situations when Nurgle lore is not that handy, there comes that marvelous third eye, which will just give me the same magic nastyness as my opponent.
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Hinge
Exalted Guardian
@conjoy.

Yep, with WoC, we generally want to get more models in contact. Its application for WoC is limited and is perhaps more something to look out for. Though there may be a time and place to pull it out of the bag of tactical tricks.

Critical elements are hard hitters on a small frontage (monsters, chariots, etc), maneuverable throwaway units (dogs/fast cav), and a nice static rez unit. Threatening from multiple directions and creating a series of bad options is the goal. Sitting on the other side in the above scenario, I would have charged the skinks and overrun, placed the disc lord in front of the suarus block so he could not flank, and accept however many monster I send in and hope to hold with steadfast (BSB should be close enough). This creates space to allow the center block to counter charge any monsters engaged with the halberdiers. This does risk the disc Sorc. He is unlikely to die outright to the Suarus and is swift stride and likely to get away when he breaks. However, his survival is not critical to winning the scenario.

I did use a building to set up a clip against demons in the same tourney. A good use for impassable terrain.

@DarSch-

Without the Puppet, I would be inclined to take GoC’s suggestion and tool up a disc Sorc. You will be less inclined to put him in units where unfortunate miscasts hurt, plus his ward will mitigate wounds to himself in this case.

I still think the Puppet is the better choice. I find my opponents are going for total power on those critical buff spells anyways. Scroll does not help and I might as well make them pay. I also find it as a check to magic early in the game. They will throw less dice at spells to avoid the risk of miscast. Thouigh it is hard to argue against taking a scroll. :D

Hinge
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conjoy
Exalted Guardian
So assumin 'clipping' has limited applicability for our army, what do you find are the more useful ones?
Personally I like using a pair of dogs units as a double charge block (you can only redirect a charge once), this is particularly useful against enemy hordes. Place both units of dogs directly in front of your opponent's horde so he has to charge them before getting to other units. But more than his movement distance away, so he has to roll more than you to catch you (and hounds have Swiftstride). If he fails to catch you, theres a chance you can rally next turn, but as he failed the charge the horde wastes a turn moving only the highest D6.
I also like using a unit of marauderHorse to tie-up a unit like a Giant on a flank. I use the method above, but given its ou on a flank,t he Giant will be unlikely to have any other targets o redirect into. So you just flee every time it charges, then rally, reform and shoot it from 7-8 inches away each round.
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Hinge
Exalted Guardian
GeneralofChaos42
Aug 30 2011, 01:25 AM
Hinge
Aug 29 2011, 11:21 PM
Thanks DarSch, I appreciate the feedback.

I write a battle report after every tourney for my club, so I have some decent material to draw on and help me recall the games. 

I am also heading down to the SoCal Slaughter this weekend to defend my title, though I will be leaving my WoC behind.  I will try to get one more done before hand though. 

Hinge

Hinge good luck at the Slaughter, hope to see a battle report.



GoC

Well, my Non- Slann LM did it and took Best Overall. Since it is LM, I will not post the battle report here but on my club site. I will post the link when I get it up. However, went 4-1 with the loss to WoC of all armies. ;)

Going back and looking at my original post, I definitely had to apply all the tactical concepts I site to pull some victories against tough lists.

Hinge
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DarkSchneider
Clanlord
Well done!
This is for all the "8th edition is only about magic" boys!
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