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| Hinge's Ramblings | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 16 2011, 01:26 PM (13,980 Views) | |
| Hinge | Sep 7 2011, 11:26 AM Post #46 |
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Exalted Guardian
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linky link to battle report http://www.leadership2.org/content/4741-socal-v-2011 |
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| DarkSchneider | Sep 8 2011, 01:03 AM Post #47 |
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Clanlord
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I wanted to ask you something, how the GW marauders work for you? I also intend to play two small units (24), but I was thinking that maybe small numbers and GWs do not work well together... |
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| Hinge | Sep 8 2011, 02:01 AM Post #48 |
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Exalted Guardian
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They have worked well very well for me. Pretty cheap at 150+ points. You have to use them differently than horde marauders. I usually run them 6 wide. I generally use them as support, hitting flanks of units engaged by the warriors/chosen. They are fantastic in this role. As usual, I am aming to win combat in as few rounds as possible. Another use is flank protection. I put one on each flank of my line. It is not unusual that I refuse one flank, so I back up and they can threaten charges on anything trying to flank me. They hit hard enough that people need to be careful. If someone puts too many resources out there for the Marauders to deal with, I can move redirectors (the fast cav mostly) or other help. If they push too hard, they risk being flanked by my center units. Finally I have used them as a plain attrition unit, accepting they will lose combat/break/be destroyed but wanting to thin down an opposing elite units before sending in the Warriors/chosen. There obvious weakness is the size of the unit. To be most effective, they need to have 10 models left to attack, 20 ST5 attacks is no joke and will put the hurt on most things. Heavy shooty armies can bring them down pretty fast. This does not bother me. It means they are not shooting at the Warriors/Chosen. They have to kill all 24 to claim the points, I can always attempt hide the last few models to deny it to them. Finally, at 150 points, if the unit is crippled, they can become redirectors. However, mortars will truly wreck them. They do tend to wander outside the leadership/bsb bubble, so you have to factor in the occasional failed frenzy check. |
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| Krakanrock | Sep 8 2011, 03:20 AM Post #49 |
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Exalted Guardian
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On the point of the smaller marauder units, have you ever had an opponent specifically go for a charge against the marauders in hopes of breaking them and running them down after a single round so that they fly past your main line and then come at you from a side? I'm not a tourney player and it's just something that popped into my head. |
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| Hinge | Sep 8 2011, 05:47 AM Post #50 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Mine are usually out on the flanks. Units out there rarely have the oomph to blow through. If they do, I am often pivoting my line in that directio while backing up with the muaraders. Worse comes to worse, the HC is usualy in my backfield (I tend to shoot more then use as a moanster) and will likely have a nice juicy flank charge if a unit does go through them. Hinge |
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| Darth Urbrambus | Sep 8 2011, 04:06 PM Post #51 |
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The Chosen
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I agree with Hinge on the small marauder units. They are a pain in the *ss for my opponents: - shoot them or not? - engage them or not? If they don't try to shoot them, they have to deal with them in CC and getting 21 attacks at S5 really makes them curse themselves for not having destroyed/neutered them in the shooting phase. If they do shoot them, great. It means they are not shooting at your more expensive troops. I have used a small Khorne Marauder unit with GW with success. I put them next to my WoT, but hold them back a bit so my opponent knows that when he engages my Warriors, he'll have to deal with flank charge. People look at marauders and automatically think of the word 'horde'. And, depending on what your opponent brings, you can put them on a flank to offer a nice juicy target for that hydra or sphinx ... and you run away or stand still making him chase you through the entire battle ^^ |
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| DarkSchneider | Sep 9 2011, 06:34 AM Post #52 |
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Clanlord
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I wasn't wondering about using small units of marauders or not. I was wondering about giving both the flails or equipping one with GWs. LEt's see: Flails and GWs against a medium opponent. Let's say we get about 10 wounds in a turn. With flails, I hit with 18 S5 attacks. Then I get 10 wounds, my number goes down to 14. With GWs, first my number goes down, then I make the same number of attacks. Round2: Flails hit again, 18 attacks but at S3. Then they get down to 4 men. GWs get down to 4 men, then they do 8 S5 attacks. At this point, I break or they break, otherwise I'm getting blown out on next round. So, what's the difference in a front-to-front battle? The first round is exactly the same. Hitting first or second matters only against small units. Difference comes in the second round, and it's basically a matter of numbers: more attacks with S3 or less with S5? Personally I think there's not so much of a difference, but I'd like to hear your thoughts. |
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| Hinge | Sep 9 2011, 12:57 PM Post #53 |
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Exalted Guardian
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I actually use one of each. I will tell you it seems the flails often are more useful. They are great at assualting and defending buildings, where I still get I4 and every round is a frst round of combat. Maybe I find more alternatie roles for them v. GWs. As you mention, against light stuff, it is usually a one round of combat no matter who wins. GW probably do better in the support role. In the flanks, they take less attacks back and if it is a couple round combat, still put out a pretty good punch. |
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| conjoy | Sep 9 2011, 06:05 PM Post #54 |
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Exalted Guardian
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My casual list has a unit of 14 with Flails. Very useful in many circumstances. I can see how a unit of 20 would be very useful in a competitive situation. |
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| khorndog | Sep 11 2011, 02:25 AM Post #55 |
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The Chosen
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This has been an amazing and enlightening read Hinge, and I thank you for your advice and tactical acumen! Ive only been playing witg WoC for 3 months now, and have had great results with my list, but love seeing the diversity of tactics that can be employed. I run the standard 2 blocks of 18 warriors, one with MoT, blasted standard, shields and one with MoN, halberds, banner of rage. I also include a horde of GW marauders, 6 knights, 2 dog units, and a disc lord/bsb on foot. Ive never had great luck with a hellcannon, and I never saw the added value of chosen for their points- would you reccomend giving the chosen another shot with a walking sorcerer? It seems like a very useful tactic, but are chosen really that good to only deploy 12 of? Small units scare me lol I am definitelt going to try to use 2 smaller 25 man GW marauder units to guard my flanks in my next game to see what they can do. This has been a great read, and Im excited to try some of these in battle! Cheers, Nick |
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| khorndog | Sep 11 2011, 02:26 AM Post #56 |
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The Chosen
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Oops, phone made a double post! |
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| Hinge | Sep 11 2011, 11:27 PM Post #57 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Thanks Khornedog. I appreciate the feedback. The twelve man block of Chosen absolutely rock. The Dreaded 13th spell is the only thing that can consistently defeat the unit. On occasion they will fail a re-rollable ld8 break test, but there small size keeps the loss of points down (still hurts though). Honestly, with the BSB in the unit, they win combat more often than not; 3+/3++ just do not give up casualties. I spent half of the tourney “season” playing without the Wailing Banner and they still were worth the extra points IMO. I hear you about Hell Cannon. It was the first thing I dropped for Adepticon, which was only 2,200 and certainly did not hinder me (went 4-0). Frankly, for every time it does something spectacular, there is another time it cannot hit the broadside of the barn and a third where it blows itself up. Many people use it more as a monster to hold a flank. This is probably a better use but I love the -1 panic and opportunity to do some damage early in the game. I hope to tackle the new ogres next Thursday and will write up my thoughts. Hinge |
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| Krakanrock | Sep 14 2011, 06:10 AM Post #58 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Some more Qs to pick your brain: 1) I'm sure, being the tourney player that you are, you have faced DoC quite often. W/ that in mind, how do you find the 12-man unit of Chosen perform against stuff like a core daemon horde w/ herald? 2) Do you find that other players will avoid your Chosen as you have a good number of other units for them to go after? 3) Would you say that they role of the Chosen is split 50/50 b/w hammer and anvil duties? Sorry if these are fairly "routine" questions. Just trying to get as good a mental picture as possible and I'm not a tourney player so some fresh insights are always a bonus. Lots of great info. Keep it coming!!! |
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| Hinge | Sep 14 2011, 01:25 PM Post #59 |
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Exalted Guardian
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1. They do fantastic. If they have Divine Greatness up, they are nearly unbeatable. They are still fearsome with two buffs (original and warshrine) and able to hold their own. About the only thing that works against them is th -2 LD banner. Even then, they need to loose combat first. I have not worked the math, but match up the 12 Chosen/BSB with Divine Greatness and plus 1 strength (warshrine) against 40 bloodletters backed by a tooled up herald and I bet it says the Chosen win out. Of course, on turn two, a chariot, the HC and the Warshrine also go in becuase you have given me extra frontage. Unfair? my MSU philosophy demands that I not stand in toe-to-toe fights but rather bring the maximum amount of pain to a combat as quickly as possible. My opponent may have his own light units, but they will have to survive the battle with mine and in the end, I should have more units able to threaten a critical combat then my horde opponent. 2. This is actually the best strategy against my list. I would use furies to distract the Chosen, Flamers to shred my light stuff, and go after the rest. The meta game is that a unit of 12 looks so tempting. Time after time, even the best players can not help themselves and go after them. A unit of 15-20 looks to daunting to tackle, but 12 ? It is a fine line and sometimes I have to spice up the bait with my sorceror. Two of my three losses occured when my opponent nuetrilized the Chosen (the third I stood toe to toe and disrergarded my principals). I have never lost a game where I lost the Chosen but they survived all my losses. 3. Chosen are one of the unique units that can fill both rolls at the same time. I may alter their buffs depending on what is required, going defense heavy (+1 To, +1 Armor, +1 Ld) or offense (+1 St or +1 AT). Think about it, two WS 6, ST 4, IN5 attacks on a 3+/5++ as a base. Buff it twice with a high probability of getting 3++ (or at least T5) and the unit just rocks. In the end, the units in my list synergies well with each other as well as my play style. It all hits hard with no obvious uber threats while providing me a host of units to deploy, move, threaten and sacrifice. Hinge PS I am always happy to answer questions. Keep them coming. I will pull one of the of the tourney battle reports against demons and post it in the next week. Oddly, I have found demon players to not be the most skilled opponets, depending more on their list then on play. Yes, lucky I did not run into a real good one, but luck does play a part in doing well in tourneys. |
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| Jonadams | Sep 22 2011, 10:17 PM Post #60 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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Firstly, great thread! I've read through this a number of times in passing, but couldn't sleep lat night, so read it properly, and ran an MSU army today in a game. I have to admit, I didn't think my 10 Chosen would survive.....3 died all game! (made 9/10 ward saves against a mindrazored unit!) The play style is very different from the big units, grind them to death, but I have to say very enjoyable. Will definitely be running similar lists again. So thank you for posting this topic, it actually made me think about my army properly, and has increased the enjoyment of the game! Jon |
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4:46 PM Jul 11