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| Hinge's Ramblings | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 16 2011, 01:26 PM (13,978 Views) | |
| khorndog | Oct 19 2011, 11:39 AM Post #76 |
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The Chosen
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Good advice, and that coherency is definitely something we've been thinking about. My buddy and I are running Dwarfs (him) and High Elves (me) to represent the alliance between Malekith's elves of Nagarythe and Snorri before the sundering, during the colonization of the "new world" (read: old world). The hardest part with list construction is the character slots- at only 1000 points, its difficult to fill them with coherent and useful units- being the kind of guy who likes to have both a mage and a BSB alongside the general, I'm already far outside my comfort zone. How did you go about that process last year with the elf armies? As a chaos-to-elf player yourself, I'm hoping you have some sound advice! Cheers, Nick |
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| Hinge | Oct 19 2011, 12:54 PM Post #77 |
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Exalted Guardian
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I will see if I can dig up our lists in the next week. Get two eagles in there (we had 4). He had a nice big seaguard unit with Banner of eternal flame, a big unit of swordmasters, some shadow warriors, L2. I had lots of dryads, a treekinn unit, noble with hail of doom, make that a flaming hail of doom, two units of glade guard. Dryads to screen the swordmasters from shooting. We had plenty of dice for magic, unfortuntly there are no good options for wood elves in the hero slot. Just used movement to pick our battles. we did with out the BSB could we could not fit it. I would think your best bet is the dwarfs as the anvil and the elfs as the hammer. Can you go more eagles then two? I would. Hinge |
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| Hinge | Oct 19 2011, 01:04 PM Post #78 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Sorry it has been a while since I posted last. Been slammed with work and trying to get an army painted for the Alamo in November. I am working on a building tactics article but it is slow coming as I keep getting distracted with other projects. I thought I would throw out a Batrep from Adepticon to fill the time. Adepticon April 2011. Adepticon, held in the outskirts of Chicago, is more a miniatures convention. They attract about 800 40k players and a slew of Fantasy, FoW, Warmachine, and other game players. The dealer room is impressive and they gave away a substantial cash prize for a painting contest. The models entered were amazing. I participated in 3 different fantasy events. A 1000 point tourney where I got clobbered but pulled Best Army award, a team tourney (3-0 and Best Sports), and the Grand Championship. The Grand Championship is 4 games in one day, 2,200 points and had 134 participants. I dropped the Hell Cannon and Chariot from my standard list and added a dog unit and standard to the GWs. The power levels of the lists were insane and people were out to win. I felt the event did not have the “soul” that many GT’s have. It is something I cannot quite put my finger on. They also need to really look at the scenarios. I found myself at table two on the final round. One look at the scenario and I quickly figured out that it was impossible for me to score more than 2 of the 5 possible battle points, even if I tabled him. Not for anything I did, but what my opponent brought. In the end though, I met a number of participants from other parts of the country that I look forward to meeting again someday. Despite some deficiencies as a tourney, I plan on attending next year. Well over 1000 people playing miniatures is just to dang impressive. After facing 4 Abombs (killing 5!), 2 hydras, and a tooled to the hilt Slann, I would end 4-0 and in 7th. Both the Delf and Lizard game were tactically interesting. Round 1- Lizardmen Slann, Life, Cogitation, all the spells, +1 die, cupped hands Skink priest, Cube Scar vet, coldone, hard to kill, BSB Scar Vet, Coldone, killy stuff 2 blocks of 30 Suarus 2 units of skinks 2x sallies Ancient Steg Cham skinks. Pretty rough list. I knew between the Cogitation and a scroll, my magic would have little impact on the game. I rolled +1 TO on the Chosen (along with +1 St, during the game), so no Divine Greatness. This is why I prefer the Sword and Board kit on my Chosen. It is a small unit, so survivability is paramount. At TO 5, 3+ armor, and 5+ ward in CC, there was not much I feared in his list other then Steg impact hits. Terrain was pretty generic accept for a house on my right. It was about 12” away from the board edge along the center line and most of the game would revolve around this piece of terrain. Deployment for both armies was weighted towards this table edge. My set up from right to left. Marauder Cav (I push forward a little bit during vanguard, but Cham skinks prevent me from going far), Flail Marauders (behind the cav), GW Marauders, Chosen, Trolls, Shrine, Dogs, Halberdiers, Dogs, disc dude. My game plan was to get the Flail Marauders into the house, use it as an anchor for the rest of the line. The house turns out to be 13” away, which is inconvenient, since it will take me two turns to get in. An alternative plan would be to swing around the outside of the house with the flails if he advances to meet me. One note, I could have used a fast reform to extend, go into a conga line, then move into the house on the second turn. While legal, I find this maneuver contrary to the spirit of the game and choose not to use it. His set up, my right to left, he is lightly more centered. Suarus Warriors with both Scar vets, Suarus Warriors with Slann, sallie, skink, salli, skink, Steg. The Cham skinks are behind the house. He gets first turn. 1st Turn His Chams pop out from behind the house to shoot at the Cav. His scar vet Suarus block advances, while the other holds back a bit. The Slann jumps out and will spend the rest of the game on its own. The rest of his line moves forward. The cav armor stops all the Cham shots, Life is a lousy first turn lore, so not much happens. My turn, I charge the Cham skinks with the cav (survive the S&S), move the line forward. The Disc goes Steg hunting and gets into BC roar range while staying out the Steg’s los. I position the Sorc outside of 24” from the Slann. Finally, I actually back the trolls up to attempt to avoid the sallies flames + skinks. While my Cav armor was rather stout, I completely whiff and kill only one Cham Skinks and they hold. I reform such that if the Suarus block with the Scar vets charges it will hit the flank rather than the front. The last thing I wanted was those Suarus sling shotting around the building into my back field. I toss six dice at Gateway targeted on the Steg. No IF but pull the scroll. BC Roar gets lucky and plinks two wounds on the Steg. Turn 2 He charges the Cav with the Suarus block. Backs up with his other Suarus, throws screens out, moves the steg back and towards the Slann. His Slann fails its first casting and shuts down the magic phase. The cav now kill all the Chams, but dies to the Scar vets. The Suarus reform to face my side. The disc charges the Steg. Chosen, Warshrine, dogs charge various screens. I back up the flails, while turning the GW towards the right side. I reform the trolls to face to the right. My magic is shut down. His screens either fled or are destroyed but I do not pursue, holding the line. The Disc plinks one more wound on the Steg. Turn 3 Suarus charge the flails but fail, moving a couple inches forward but not really exposing his flank to the GW. His other Suarus block continues to shuffle back, some of his skink screens rally. I stop his Flesh to stone on the Suarus/Scar Vet as well as the Throne but let everything else through. I get another wound on the Steg. On my turn, I charge the Warshrine at a Sallie and the Halberdiers at another skink unit. My overrun will not be great but if I gave him a chance he would be able to reposition in front of the Halberdiers at even a worse angle. Sometimes you have to take the least painful of several bad choices. I move the Flails up to give myself some space, figuring he is in easy charge range now. The idea is, if when he breaks the marauders, I should have enough space to not flee off the board. His choice will be to pursue and expose the flank of the suarus to the GW Marauders or let go and risk the unit rallying. I move the trolls behind GW Marauders. The Chosen continue to advance on the second Suarus block. I dispel Throne and sling a 5 die Gateway at the Slann. Roll three sixes and do not even get it off. Damn Cogitation. I get the steg down to 1 wound. I was fortunate that the steg was just too far away to be healed by the slann and he was nervous about moving the slann across my army, even if it was in his back field. I would have sent the BSB hunting if he had. Turn 4 He charges the Flail Marauders with the Scar Vet Suarus and backs up with the other Suarus. I stop throne and Shield of thorns, he gets Flesh off on the unit facing the Chosen and kills a couple of Warriors with awakening the wood. I kill the steg and the skink priest proves to be a little to close and panics. I reform to chase him off the board and then redirect toward the last sallie. The flails do me proud, killing lots Suarus and putting a wound on a scar vet. They break and end up staying just on the board, the Suarus reform towards the GW Mauraders. I charge the Priest, he runs off the table, redirect into the sallie. The Chosen and Shrine go into the Suarus in front. Even though they are T6, I wanted to keep my opponents attention there, I felt good about what was happening in my back field. I shimmy the trolls and GW Marauders sideways towards my board edge back but within charge distance of the Scar vet Suarus. The Halberdiers get in position to flank charge the Suarus locked up with the Chosen. My magic does nothing, I kill a some of the T6 Suarus but he holds due to steadfast. Embarrassingly, a skink handler wounds my Exalted killing him (he had one wound from the steg). Turn 5 He charges the GW Marauders. He gets his sallie in the way of the Halberdiers, damn I just needed to lock it up. I stop Throne and Flesh to stone, letting him heal a couple of troops and cast Shield of thorns. The Chosen chop up a bunch of Suarus but he holds due to steadfast. The GW Marauders kill the wounded scar vet and do in a bunch more Suarus before breaking and being run down. The Suarus run into the trolls. I charge the sallie with the halberdiers, and make a long charge with the flails into the rear of the suarus. The Chosen shred more Suarus and they hold. It is getting grim for them. The flails and trolls finish off the Suarus block but oddly break. The BSB runs down the marauders and the trolls get away. Turn 6 He hides the BSB. I stop the Throne. Desperate to save the last Suarus block, he goes big on Flesh to Stone and gets IF. He rolls double 1 and I cannot get it out of the sucked into the warp result. However, he fails the cuped hands result and the Slann is sucked into the warp. Despite the T6, the Chosen finish off the suarus, break them and run them down. Victory for the WoC. While I got lucky with the cupped hands, we rolled to see if I would have gone the same way. Fortunately I made the roll. The Slann going down earned me an extra Battle Point but the outcome was pretty well decided. The key was creating three separate battles that the Slann could not cover them all. I locked up the Steg to far away, and was really a result of a mistake in his deployment. Using the house to create two distinct battles with each Suarus block. In one, he was clearly outclassed by the Chosen/Halberdiers/shrine and my opponent used his skinks and sallies well to delay the inevitable. In the other, he was separated from his chaff, so I could use multiple units to threaten from different angles, despite the tight quarters. He did do a good job of keeping me out of the building, where he could not follow (due to cold ones). Sure he could not have entered, but any assault would have hurt and he would have been left standing outside, likely with an exposed flank and me running out the other side. In the end, I could attrite the unit down with ST5 attacks and even hit it with a rear charge. Point wise, we was up an extra banner and I a scar vet, but pretty even trade all things considered and I would take that any day given I was winning the other battles while consuming his chaf units. Edited by Hinge, Oct 19 2011, 01:12 PM.
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| DarkSchneider | Oct 20 2011, 12:38 AM Post #79 |
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Clanlord
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Edited by DarkSchneider, Oct 20 2011, 12:43 AM.
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| Hinge | Oct 20 2011, 11:28 AM Post #80 |
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Exalted Guardian
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A unit may make a swift reform, it makes a reform maneuver as normal. No model moves more than twice its move. You expand into a conga line such that the first model is 8” forward (assuming 4” MV troops). Then you are allowed a full normal move. Building rules only allow you to enter if you did not march, which you could not do so, being prohibited from marching by the swift reform. In effect, you can enter a building 3x your movement away. To me, this is a clear rules loop hole, which is why I will not use it. I have had it had it used against me in tourney play and nearly cost me the game. Hinge PS I should have a buildings tactics article done soon. |
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| Collinisimo | Oct 20 2011, 11:52 AM Post #81 |
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The Chosen
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Hinge, There has been a lot of talk about the Stubborn Tzeentch Disc Lord, and you said that you were interested in trying him out. What kind of list would you use him in, and do you have any other tactical tips to give using him? Thanks. |
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| Khurdur | Oct 20 2011, 06:27 PM Post #82 |
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The Chosen
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well a nice list at the beginning, MSU I think is quite usable for chaos, as our units can be both small and powerful....And nice batrep against those lizards, they are tough nuts to crack. @2500, how would you play against DE cheese? Meaning definately a LV.4 shadow with a sacrificial dagger, meaning onces lines meet you can expect a -D3 toughness, -D3 st, and mindrazor, spread to one spell per combat we engage, backed up with an additional dice per spell. Double Hydras? Both move fast, and once they get near, they will flame the nearest unit, making 25 maruaders 10 in one shooting flames of fiery death. (Had it happen to me, 2 hydras made 40 maruaders 15) Lore of tz will help, but there's one wizard and two hydras. They can each flame a seperate unit. And a speedbump lord with pendant of khaeleth, crown of command and soulrender on dark pegasus or cold one, who will hit a unit, jam it for the rest of the game and slowly kill it. And then usually witch elves to take advantage of the cauldron and shadow spells, who buffed will shred any unit we have aside from the chosen, a couple of crossbow units to put wounds on units/whittle them down, which also works well with -D3 toughness. two block of 25 warriors, things like that. And usually 5 harpies to make the hellcannon chase them instead of shooting. I usually struggle with such lists, though I don't use the same list as you. I'm just asking what tactics you'd use for such an army. cheers ! Edited by Khurdur, Oct 20 2011, 06:32 PM.
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| DarkSchneider | Oct 20 2011, 09:42 PM Post #83 |
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Clanlord
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there is an official FAQ regarding fast cavalry and skirmisher, two units allowed to swift reform always, that says you can move them a MAXIMUM of double their M value. I suppose this applies also to normal units which swift reform via a LD check. The FAQ says something like "pick the most far away model of the unit and place the whole unit to maximum distance of double the M from that model". I think that's how they got rid of the loophole |
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| Hinge | Oct 20 2011, 11:01 PM Post #84 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Have not been able to win that arguement. Someone pulling this stunt is going to stick to RAW (Rules as Written). Even if you hold to that precedence, the manuever allows you to move double your movement into a building, something GW did not want since it does not allow a model that executed a march move to enter into one. A simple faq that says that any model that moves more then its base movement can not enter a building would fix it. |
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| DarkSchneider | Oct 21 2011, 12:18 AM Post #85 |
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Clanlord
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I think that RAWing that FAQ, there's no way you can't win tha argument :) btw, I understand that regarding buildings, the question is different. I can, actually, enter a building that is 8" away from me, by reforming and then moving. No rules against this. But as you say, probably that's not what GW wanted.......or not? It's hard to think they didn't consider that option when writing these rules.......maybe, considering that not every unit has a musician, and you have to pass a Ld test, they intended not EVERY unit to march into buildings............who knows..... |
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| Hinge | Oct 21 2011, 06:39 AM Post #86 |
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Exalted Guardian
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@Khudur The double Hydra/Sac Dagger/Pendant stubborn lord/Cauldron is the top of the Cheese –o- Meter and is a tough opponent to take down. We do have a couple of things going for us. All my comments are based off my current WoC tourney list at the front, but most should apply to any WoC list. A big advantage we have is that our magic is a little more offensive then his. I also have a Hell Cannon, so I am no hurry to engage in combat. Very un WoC like but there it is. When faced with two Hydras, I will use Tzeetch early with a flick, Panda, then Gateway at one of the Hydras. The Gateway being the most important and I usually go for IF if I have enough dice. I am gunning to knock a hydra out early. Faced with one Hydra, I am more likely to use Third Eye and Wither the DreadLord (assuming he is not in a unit) so that the BC roar can kill him in one go. I may have the Sorcerer running around on his own, keeping units between any shooting and out of any potential charges. This way, the Dreadlord cannot lock up a unit he is in and challenge through to him. When combat eventually happens, we want to use his shadow to hex and buff. Hydras do not like Mindrazor anymore then we do. The puppet is excellent protection v. Dark elfs. They cast a lot of spells, increasing the chance of a miscast. Additionally, it will keep the number of dice he throws at any single spell down (until he goes for IF) in an attempt to avoid being sucked into the warp. This gives you a better chance at stopping the one or two spells you need to stop. The exalted is dread lord hunting. BC Roar should knock a wound off a turn, if withered, will likely kill him. This tends to put a lot of pressure on the Dark Elf player, who will seek to get him into combat quickly and perhaps not in the most optimum unit (the Chosen). The Disc Exalted can also go after The Cauldron or support another unit with a flank charge. The disc exalted is extremely flexible, opens up a host of options and can even tangle with the Dreadlord one on one, especially if you have dinged a wound or two off of him first. The marauder units go out wide. If he wants to send the Hydras out to hunt them down, he can be my guest. If he focuses on my center, they can turn in or simply protect flanks. The Hell Cannon is dropping rounds on any large blocks of infantry, especially Blackguard. This will help thin them out. The goal is to set up a multiple charge on a single unit. You want to send as many units as possible in attempt to blow through them in a single turn. Otherwise you may be facing a unit backed by a strong shadow magic phase. Once you hit that unit, again steal his shadow magic and hex like crazy. Frankly, Miasma is the one you really want, but the others are useful. A lot will depend on how your opponent uses his Harpies. Hopefully he expends them early. If he keeps one back in reserve, you may need to hunt them down with the disc or Cav. Good Luck. Dark Elfs are one of our tougher opponents. Hinge |
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| Hinge | Oct 21 2011, 06:46 AM Post #87 |
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Exalted Guardian
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I am going to give him a go in an all cav WoC list. I will have to get a couple of games under my belt befoe I start on a set of tactics. In the end, jamming him into an opponents most potent hammer unit is ok, I would want to set up a flank charge on the unit pretty quickly though. |
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| Collinisimo | Oct 21 2011, 07:58 AM Post #88 |
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The Chosen
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The all cav list interests me, do you have a current list or are you still looking to get more games under your belt before settling on one? |
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| matsemann | Oct 21 2011, 07:05 PM Post #89 |
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The Chosen
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That's a killer combo and not only against dread lords, most kinds of stuff we go after with bloodcurling roar. Imagine screaming a whole unit of knights to death :rock: |
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| Khurdur | Oct 23 2011, 01:47 AM Post #90 |
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The Chosen
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I see how you deal with DE...they are rather brutal....how would we deal with the movement phase? You say to set up a multiple charge, but they all move M5, and will have a couple of fast units, faster than ours, such as harpies, dark riders or shades. If we fight 1v1 in most combats, something he'll go for, he'll have more dice than we do, so will fire one shadow spell at each combat, with 2 dice + one from the dagger....meaning say he rolls 3 and 4 for the winds, he'll in effect roll with 4+3 power dice, he can cast 3 spells, we can reliably stop one, and with only 3 dice he's unlikely to IF, he won't be aiming for one. Two witch units and two large spear units can each kick out a lot of lethal attacks with the cauldron, shadow spells, and he'll aim to get them all in comabt at the same time. And well, yes magic is the best way to stop a hydra...just that tzeentch spells are a bit random....if a flickering fire rolls low S it won't really wound the hydra or pass its AS, and gateway needs to roll high on its hits and S, and it'll still get a regen save. And the scaly blighters close the distance quickly, a poor magic phase or two and the hydras will be in our face quickly and flaming units. But if the spells work, we'll stop them. DE are a very sharp list, they don't rely on luck at all, they are very solid in all phases. Heck, even their xbows can cause us problems shooting things down with withering. All their units have a good ACR output, backed up by a cauldron and shadow makes them meatgrinders. 30 spearmen with KB will make shortwork of 14 chaos warriors. Or with +1 attack will destroy 25-30 marauders.. The hellcannon is good, it will only need one hit on 20 WE will definately kill a good bunch. It still is a bit hit and miss.... BC Roar and withering ??? Sold ! gotta try that one.... All in all, against an equal opponent using DE cheese, what would you say? Whats you personal score against lists like this? Edited by Khurdur, Oct 23 2011, 01:51 AM.
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4:46 PM Jul 11