Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to The Chamber of the Everchosen. We hope you enjoy your visit!


Here at COTEC we are all about the Warriors of Chaos in Warhammer Fantasy Battle.

Tactics to help you slaughter your opponent on the tabletop, through to galleries on how to build your next Warshrine. Its all covered... and growing!

We are a forum for gamers and hobbyist alike and again would like to welcome you to a fun, friendly, warm place and hope to see you again!


Join our legion! Takes less than a minute and gives you access to everything!


If you're already a member please log in to your account by entering the correct runes and words of power:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Hinge's Ramblings
Topic Started: Aug 16 2011, 01:26 PM (13,977 Views)
Hinge
Exalted Guardian
In tourney play, my WoC is 2-1. The loss was a very narrow one (150 pts) to a top notch player. The Bat Rep is early in the thread, but a bone head mistake cost me the draw. I am also 2-0 with my lizard men, and I never take a slann, but rather a single L2.

The game will be won and loss in the battle between the chaff/light units. The player that wins that battle will control the movement phase and likely win the game. To counter his harpies/Dark Riders/shades, I have Hounds/Flail Cav/Chariot/Trolls/Shrine. This gives me a good combo of cheap, hard hitting, durable, and/or fast units to deal with his. Frankly, I rarely see more then 2-3 chaff units in a DE army, and even then, shades tend to be in the rear or far out on the flank, which puts them in bad position to influence the movement phase. Sometimes the disc exalted may have to get involved, especially once the dreadlord has either been dealt with or gotten into a unit.

You must be patient unless faced with a massed xbow army, in which case you likely have the advantage in combat. The more time spent in the skirmish phase of the game, the more time your magic and HC have to work over your opponent, evening out any bad luck with the dice. His best offensive spell is wither/xbows. When not in combat, you stop his wither and you have gone a long way to neutering his magic phase on those turns. Also, if he is kind enough to take pit of shades, cast it on his hydras and see how he likes it.

M5 is not that big an advantage nowadays, at least for ranked units. You must keep him from getting the charges he wants off, which why it is so important to win the light unit battle. Also remember, that his light units will be in the way until this phase is resolved.

While desirable, it is not necessary to kill the hydra(s), but rather get a couple wounds on it early. This will lessen the effectiveness of its breath weapon and make it suicide to go into any of the ranked units alone. My army thrives on massed ST 5 attack. A hydra with 2-3 wounds left will not survive long in that environment, especially if it has been withered/enfeebled. Use his tricks against him.

30 Spears backed by KB against my Halberdiers is a bad match up for him. On the first turn (where he has the re-rolls), his 30 spears will KB 3 Warriors (after 6+ Ward) and 1.5 more for 4-5. The Warriors in turn will kill 16, which with him 10 wide (to get all 30 attacks) means he lost steadfast and will break. He really needs shadow to go at the warriors, so you maneuver to get the charge off first. If you do that really well, perhaps you can get the chariot or shrine in as well. Against 40, it is more problematic. He gets 10 more attacks and will be steadfast, so you will eat some shadow magic on the next round that will tip the scales. This is why getting Miasma off on that unit really helps. If you do, he will, at the very least strike after you, minimizing the attacks back the first round and he will likely be hitting on 5’s. He will need to cast Miasma just to level the playing field and you can conserve your dispel dice for other spells. In the end, mindrazor is the one you want to stop at all costs.

When it comes to 3 die spam, there is about a 7.5% chance that he gets IF on any casting with three dice. If he casts three spells a turn, that is about a 20% chance in a single turn. So pretty good shot that caster will have to eat a miscast sometime during the game. It could happen when it is more important to get IF, or it could happen late in the game, but it is just as likely to happen early as well. With the Puppet’s ability to move the miscast result to Power Drain or Dimensional Cascade, a DE player is taking a risk by casting multiple spells early in non-critical situations.

In no way is a well-played and optimized Dark Elf list easy to tackle, but it is not insurmountable. With my WoC, I feel I have a very good chance against a DE cheese list. With the LM, it is a much harder game but I am also pretty confident in tangling with them as well.

Hinge
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Khurdur
Member Avatar
The Chosen
I see....yes lizzies are even worse...what with cogitation and rumination....

The de player wouldn't play 10 wide spears, I wouldn't....he should just play 5 or 7, to take advantage of their smaller size. facing 10 wide warriors is, well, ouch...
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hinge
Exalted Guardian
I think you mis read. I do not play with any slann what so ever. My only magic is a L2 skink priest. Yet I have manage to beat every dark elf I have run across. You beat dark elves in the movement phase. Dominate that and the shadow magic shenanigans are mitigated.

If you have 40 spears, go horde. Other wise you are correct. On the other hand that really limits the killing power of a buffed spear unit. So not as much a worry.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Khurdur
Member Avatar
The Chosen
I understand what you meant....when you play lizzies you don't take a slann, i was talking about other people taking lizards with a slann.
How do you play them then?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hinge
Exalted Guardian
Against Lizard men, I try to go big with spells if within 24” of the Slann, conserve my dispel dice for that critical spell, work over his light units and again attempt to dominate the movement phase and pick and choose my combats. It is another tough opponent, but my base tactical approach is not much different.

I think another point should be made in regards to tackling tough lists/armies in a tourney environment. In a comp environment, my list tends to comp pretty well. Additionally, whether in a comp or no comp tourney, my wins early tend to be of the 17-18 point varieties (out of 20) rather than max point wins. This allows me to sit in that second tier on the first day, avoiding the power lists and power gamers. Let them beat each other up on that first day. Power lists tend to be win big/lose big type lists. So while you are facing them on the second day, if you can pull the wins, you are usually scoring max points and making up ground. Add to the generally high soft scores I pull, this puts me in a pretty good position at tourney end, all while minimizing the number of power lists I have to face.

Hinge
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
DarkSchneider
Clanlord
totally agree.
getting not-so-big victories helps avoiding skaven in the first rounds.......
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hinge
Exalted Guardian
I just got back from a 70+ tourney in Texas. A couple of observations:

VC are back and they are packing wraith characters and the Terrorgeist. Looks like my paranoia about etherals is paying off. The terrorgeist will be a bane for my style of list and will be target number one for flick/gateway.

An unscientific count showed that Skaven/LM/WoC/DE were the most numerous armies present. Ogres also made a strong showing.

Ogres games looked tough and a heard a fair amount of chatter about them. I believe they will be a contender in the tourney scene. However, I also believe WoC have the tools to deal with them.

Hinge
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Krakanrock
Member Avatar
Exalted Guardian
Can we expect any battle reports in the near future?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hinge
Exalted Guardian
I was not planning on it. I played my Carney Lord led LM instead of WoC and did not face any WoC players. While most of my posts are either about general play or tournaments, I want to respect the Forum theme (WoC).

If there is enough interest I could. Or maybe a quick rundown of the armies I faced. None were pariucularly unique, though an interesting spin on a DE list.

Oh, and for the record, I went 4-0-1 and won Best Overall. I had to enter the house through the garage since my head was so big from a condition of overinflated ego :D

Hinge
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Krakanrock
Member Avatar
Exalted Guardian
Hinge
Nov 10 2011, 12:09 PM
I was not planning on it. I played my Carney Lord led LM instead of WoC and did not face any WoC players. While most of my posts are either about general play or tournaments, I want to respect the Forum theme (WoC).
Got 'er otter. Makes good and perfect sense to me. B)

And congrats on the Best Overall! :rock: Even if it was w/ lizzies. :P
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
DarkSchneider
Clanlord
too easy with LM, I would say, if I didn't knew you were playing no slann and a carnosaur :)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hinge
Exalted Guardian
Ok, I liked this post in response to deployment so much that I decided to paste into my ramblings. Pilch makes an excellent observation about having a plan.

Pilch is right on. Develop a plan before deployment based on your opponent and terrain. The first step is looking at your opponents list (I usually play in an open list environment) and deciding how you will attack it. What units do you want to attack and score points off of. Which units do you want to avoid. What are the first units of yours you are willing to concede to obtain your goals? Next, are you going to push a flank or plan on head to head? Terrain can influence the deployment. When facing gunlines, is there a big woods you can advance through for cover? I love buildings and generally have a better grasp of those rules then my opponent. If I can force the action around the building, I hope to create an opportunity there. I play mostly tourney style, so even if it is closed list, I have a damn good idea of what they are playing. I laugh at Dark Elf players who want to play closed list. They are the most predictable army out there.

Next step is the early drops. Marauder cav first, and usually on the flank. The vanguard allows you to reposition if need be. Vanguard does not have to be forward, it could just as easily be sideways. Hellcannon goes center and slightly back. It is in position to shoot and can move around whatever unit I may place in front. Then the dogs. They usually shade towards where I will place my main effort. These are the most expendable units I have and I want them close to where I can use them as speed bumps to protect my main effort. So four cheap drops that tell my opponent nothing about my plan. This is about average for most armies and then it gets interesting. Also, if there is a unit you just absolutely do not want to engage, save one of your fast cheap drops until he deploys that unit.

This is where the plan kicks in. First, have a keen understanding of how much frontage your units take. You want to make sure you leave enough room to put units where they want. I am willing to let an opponent shift an already deployed unit over a half inch or so to fit a unit in but there are those who will not. Let’s not start the game off with an argument by avoiding the situation all together. Second, observe his placement closely. If he sets down two supporting units with a gap that happens to be just wide enough for his horde unit, you know where that horde unit is going. It happens every single time. There are other tell tales. Trolls are always my last deployed unit. If you drop trolls, you are telling your opponent pretty much where your general will be (with in 6”). The caveat is if he has a character that may be designed to go in the troll unit. Based on his deployments, adjust your plan accordingly.

Hope this helps.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
DarkSchneider
Clanlord
That's exactly what I was looking for. I think that deployment is an hard task for WoC, cause we actually NEED to engage in CC asap, to get our VPs, and to do it where we want...........so deployment is essential for us, and not so easy to handle.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
conjoy
Exalted Guardian
Hi Hinge (and anyone else playing MSU),

I am curious as to what extent the games you play, have random deployment?
The BRB has a number of scenarios that involve random deployment rules, but none of the US GT reports I have seen mention these kinds of situations.
They do seem to use scenarios, but these seem more geared towards taking and holding objectives.

One of the strengths of the WoC army is its durability. Either due to high T and armour and/or sheer killyness and/or high model count (cheap troops). So by going MSU you lose at least one of these potential advantages. In random deployment games, do you find you struggle with match-ups, or does the increased manoeuvrability still outweighs the loss of staying power?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hinge
Exalted Guardian
I have played a total of 39 GT games (both WoC and LM) since 8th ed came out (I am not counting the occasional local tourney). Two of them had the Dawn Attack scenario and three had meeting engagement.

Dawn attack presents challenges (I am always afraid my trolls will end up far away from my general) but I also feel opens up some opportunity. The first is that the battle lines start much more spread out. This will create more of a game of movement that will push an opponent that is used to keeping 2-4 big blocks together out of his comfort zone.

Another situation may occur where one of his blocks of doom end up on one flank facing one of my light units while the rest of his army is on the other facing most the rest of mine. In my building article, I use the example of my Marauder unit playing hide and seek with a unit worth more then twice its value. This actually occured during a dawn attack.

When deploying, concentrate on the borders between the zones. This will mitigate some of the randomness. Oddly, the final deployment will likely look like what I would have done in a pitched battle. The units might be in a different order but flexibility is a key to MSU.

A strength of MSU is that their is no single unit that is critical, so something out of position is not going to sink your game.

I also find Meeting engagement creates a great opportunity to force a game of manuever. There is more depth for you to back up when need be and the odd unit that starts off the board rarely is that big of a deal. Most tournies allow you to attach a character before rolling btw.

I find MSU really struggles with Battle for the Pass. the narrowed frontage leads to a more straight up fight and if you are fighting gunlines, they will have more time to shoot you down as you move forward.

Hinge.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Tactics · Next Topic »
Add Reply