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What do you want out of a new army book?
Topic Started: Sep 12 2011, 01:35 PM (1,331 Views)
AnomalyOfAwesome
The Chosen
Would giving the Juggernaut really make it viable again? Wouldn't that just make it possible to be killed, and therefore shooting bait like every other monster?

As for continuing, I was thinking about what the magic items would look like. I would like to see what we would get with just 8 or so items. (I love that they are shrinking that section of the army books! :-) )

I think we would definitely keep the Chaos Runesword and Runeshield, as they have been staples of our army since like 3rd or 4th edition. Favour of the Gods seems likely to stay. MAYBE the Puppet, though I could see it being nerfed. What else would you like to see?
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rothgar13
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Clanlord
If Ogres are any indicator, we'd also keep a handful of Gifts. I'd like to see Word of Agony and Stream of Corruption stay, and maybe the Third Eye of Tzeentch. Apart from that, do what you will, GW. :P

Chaos Knights riding Juggers would be amazing - Monstrous Cavalry is a good unit type to be. On the item front... I see the Bronze Armor of Zhrakk sticking around, and maybe the Bloodskull Pendant. Book of Secrets is iffy, but I think it has a chance.
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TheOneHawk
Warrior of the Chamber
Anything that has something similar in the main book will get dropped. Book of secrets has wizarding hat so I'm pretty sure it's a goner.
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DarkChilde
The Chosen
Things that I would like to see in a new army book are:

1. A new army book relatively soon before all these other armies start getting books where power creep is placing them over us.

2) Trimming back point wise. in the new books Ogres got a significant point reduction. Chaos is tough,but honestly I have seen the new Ogres tear through a chaos unit, including a unit of Mournfang Cavalry eat up Chaos Knights in almost a single turn. Couple this with the fact that shooting has become more prevalent,etc I would say the cost of most Chaos units can come down in price to an extent.

3) Lore attributes

4) I would like to the Mark of Nurgle get a boost of some sort. I think the way it was originally written as a -1 to hit in CC (instead of -1 WS) and -1 to shooting is fine. People also deride the mark of Slaanesh, but honestly I don't think the Dark Prince's mark is that bad being ITP can come in pretty handy and if I have the discovered that if you put the mark on low leadership cheap units that you plan to spam as shooting fire to help you face all the bloody undercosted gunlines out there it can be pretty good. Drop the MoS on a unit of Marauder Horsemen and I have 65 point unit that will not panic when they get shot at getting across the field and that is less shooting directed at my other meatier units. I wish I could put MoS on Chaos Warhounds.

5) More ways to deal with shooting and artillery attacks.

6) I would like the Infernal Puppet to stay as a magic item exactly as written...maybe a cost increase but other armies have a ton of items that are just as "broken" heck the entire army called Skaven is nothing but cheese in my opinion.

7) An official warshrine model.

8) To see some Daemons besides a demon lord be an option in a chaos army.

9) The Eye of the Gods chart revamped on a roll of 2d6 the average is 7 which is no effect, so the chart is slanted to screw the WOC player

10) The rule chaos models must challenge if they can and can't refused. In terms of actually game play that I have seen chaos has suffered because of this in 8th edition more than benefitted from it.


Darkchilde
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Bonesaw
Slave
[ * ]
I think points need to be adjusted down on a number of units. The Shaggoth, Dragon Ogres and chaos Ogres to name a few.

Above all I`d like to see the marks work much as they do now because they are central to giving the Warriors the play style and flavor I have grown used to over the years. If they mess with them, well :angry: :angry: :angry: I think you get the point.
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Atropos
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Warrior of the Chamber
I agree with the above. The Shaggoth is ridiculously expensive. I'd love to get it back on the gaming board; but right now, my rare choices are either warshrines, hellcannons, or a combination of both.
They could actually try to make interesting rules for the forsaken, and they could probably make new models for them since they're actually forgotten as someone else stated.
New Marks of Chaos could be good if done well, and the same goes for the EotG table. I guess the latter will be modified.
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cross
The Chosen
amongst other good suggestions above i think it would be good if our sorcerers (not just sorcerer lords) could take the lores of shadow and heavens in addition to death and fire.

lore attributes a must.

manticores and shaggoths made viable choices. right now they suck for their points. is it wrong if we ask to have a hydra added to our book?? it seems pretty chaosy!

our knights are to expensive. not worth their points. some sort of adjustment here.

have mark specific items and gifts, as well as a range of undivided items.

if there is a power creep in the new books i would like to see our marks strengthen up. maybe if targeting khorne with magic you get an extra d3 to your dispel attempt. slaanesh asf and immune to psychology. nurgle -1 to hit in cc and shooting, maybe a bonus against templates of somekind. tzeench gets +1 to dispel as well.

keep i mind the topic is "what we would like to see" not "what you expect to see" in a new book. we can dream.

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rothgar13
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Clanlord
There's little to no power creep in the new books - they are remarkably well balanced both internally (most choices are competitive with each other) and externally (O&G, TK, and OK are in the same ballpark), so you can put those pumped-up marks back in the closet unless you want them to trim Warrior stats.

I would reiterate my preference for Khorne armies to be able to bring a "Runelord" of sorts so that a no-casting Khorne army becomes at least viable (even if it's not cut-throat competitive).
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Bonesaw
Slave
[ * ]
I`m all in on including some interesting chaos dwarf units or even a character. I don`t see the marks as being too powerful at all. If I has to choose one that was it would be Tzeench. A three plus ward is pretty much out of line with the rest of the game. In any game I have played I have found Warriors pretty well balanced with other armies. I hear whining about ow powerful Warriors are while I getting warp lightning or doom rocket-ed to death.

Warriors need to be strong in CC because of our lack of shooting. Magic we have covered.
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Krakanrock
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Exalted Guardian
Assuming we're only getting 8 magic items like all the new books:
1) Chaos Runesword and Chaos Runeshiled I can see making it into the book as they've been around forever. Good choices for labeling as "Undivided" items. I could also see something like any of the familiars and FothG making it in.
2) Something like the Puppet - not so sure it'd make it in. It really is a powerful tool especially in an edition where everyone is chucking 6 dice (or more in the case of DE) at spells to get IF. I can't see GW giving Chaos such a no-brainer item.
3) At least one item dedicated to each of the gods and only usable by their followers: Collar or Axe of Khorne, Golden Eye of Tzeentch, Filth Mace or Necrotic Phylactory for Nurgle. Slaanesh, not really sure.

Other things I'd like to see:
1) ALL the marks being worth taking! It really is a shame that the marks of Slaanesh and Nurgle are quite a bit less useful. Even a return of the mark of Chaos Undivided would be cool. As far as the cost of the marks are now, Nurgle is to expensive for it to be just -1 WS. Either drop it in price or make it an all around -1 to hit for both shooting and HtH. The cost for MoS is fine as it's the least useful. Or improve it to ASF and bump up the cost to 20 or 30 pts. Tzeentch should probably get a bump up as well. Hmm, make every mark 30 pts and do the following:
MoK - same as now
MoN - all around -1 to hit (shooting & HtH)
MoT - same as now
MoS - ASF
2) A viable shaggoth. Right now it just screams "Free Points!!!" Either drop the points or give it some more abilities that make it worth its 265 point price tag.
3) A drop in the points of Chaos Knights. Cavalry isn't that great in this edition so they could really use the points reduction to make them more useful. Keep all the rules and maybe make them 30pts/model and the FC 40pts.
4) Make Forsaken a useful unit. Possibly a skirmishing unit. The fluff on these guys is just to good to drop them entirely. I don't see why they have the same points value as Chosen. Make their points value somewhere b/w Marauders and Warriors.
5) The return of marauder chariots!! That would be so kick ass!!! :rock: But it's probably more wishful thinking than anything. :(
6) Jugger monstrous cav!! Or maybe even just cav mounted on all daemonic steeds for monstrous cav.

Some things I think we WON'T see or that we will but probably won't like:
1) A points reduction on warriors. They are pretty hard as it is. If the marks get fixed so that every one is actually useable, I'm thinking warriors will cost the same.
2) I'm pretty sure we're going to get a rude awakening on marauders. They are one of the best units out there for their cost. I wouldn't be surprised if they were increased in point value by 1 - 2 points. I could even see GW making GWs 2pts/model instead of 1.
3) I haven't seen the TK or OK books but I know the O&G book saw an increase in points for command models. Gobbos are up to 30 and orcs went up to 35 for their respective FCs. I'm assuming we are going to see the same as it relates to marauders and warriors respectively.
4) It would be nice to be able to keep the EotG table and the free roll for the chosen, but, that may be wishful thinking.

Things that will probably stay as is:
1) Chosen. I just question if they'll be keeping the free roll on the EotG chart.
2) Chariots. One of the toughest, hardest hitting chariots in the game. No changes really needed.
3) Chaos Trolls. Pretty good as is especially w/ Mutant Regeneration. The fact that the regen can be cancelled out by fire helps to balance that all out.
4) Warriors - see above
5) Chaos Ogres. They just to mediocre to change much about them: they're not broken but they don't suck hard core like forsaken and GW seems all about TRYING to balance things out a bit so I'm guessing they'll stay as is.
6) Hellcannon. Pretty good cost for what it can do.
7) Warshrine. Again, good cost for what it does. Not broken and not over cost.

New models I'd like to see:
1) Plastic dragon ogres!!! Needed SOOOOOO badly!!!
2) Plastic hellcanon! How sweet would that be!?!?!? :rock:
3) Plastic chariot/warshrine kit.
4) Assuming they keep forsaken and fix them, a plastic kit of these would be nice.
5) New marauders plastics. Make them look more like the horsemen. Also give them all the gear options. Possibly even some mark specific stuff.
6) This one may be wishful thinking but some plastic Chaos ogres.
7) Hopefully they continue w/ the plastic character choices like they've done w/ the new Nurgle Lord.
8) All the gear options in the kits for warriors. Again, possibly some mark specific stuff.
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Atropos
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Warrior of the Chamber
Indeed, I myself hear the same comments about my Warriors of Chaos. "Oh... those Khorne Warriors with Halberds are pretty sick" (doomrocket, bang) "and those 3++ Chosen are invincible" (dreaded 13th spell... bang). It's funny how they whine about us when we face 2 abombs, 150 slaves, the seer in bell with the dreaded 13th spell and sooo many toys...
Nonetheless, this is about what we want to see in our new book. I previously said Forsaken, but a "decent" monster wouldn't hurt either...
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guardian angel
Exalted Guardian
Krakanrock
Sep 25 2011, 02:35 AM
At least one item dedicated to each of the gods and only usable by their followers: Collar or Axe of Khorne, Golden Eye of Tzeentch, Filth Mace or Necrotic Phylactory for Nurgle.  Slaanesh, not really sure. 

4) Make Forsaken a useful unit.  Possibly a skirmishing unit.  The fluff on these guys is just to good to drop them entirely.  I don't see why they have the same points value as Chosen.  Make their points value somewhere b/w Marauders and Warriors.
5) The return of marauder chariots!!  That would be so kick ass!!! :rock:  But it's probably more wishful thinking than anything. :(

Totally agree with these points. We should definitely get a marauder chariot, it just makes sense!

Also Dragon ogres BADLY need NEW plastic models and a points trim. They have awesome fluff and I want to use them, I really do, but normally end up taking knights instead!

Also, as others have said, the daemon prince NEEDS a HUGE overhaul! Should be able to take a mix of magic items and gifts. He should be absolutely badass B)

Oh yeah, and a LOT better gifts, not just about 3 useful ones!
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DarkChilde
The Chosen
Krakanrock
Sep 25 2011, 02:35 AM
Some things I think we WON'T see or that we will but probably won't like:
1) A points reduction on warriors.  They are pretty hard as it is.  If the marks get fixed so that every one is actually useable, I'm thinking warriors will cost the same.
2) I'm pretty sure we're going to get a rude awakening on marauders.  They are one of the best units out there for their cost.  I wouldn't be surprised if they were increased in point value by 1 - 2 points.  I could even see GW making GWs 2pts/model instead of 1.
3) I haven't seen the TK or OK books but I know the O&G book saw an increase in points for command models.  Gobbos are up to 30 and orcs went up to 35 for their respective FCs.  I'm assuming we are going to see the same as it relates to marauders and warriors respectively.
4) It would be nice to be able to keep the EotG table and the free roll for the chosen, but, that may be wishful thinking.

Things that will probably stay as is:
1) Chosen.  I just question if they'll be keeping the free roll on the EotG chart.

If Chosen don't get the a free roll on the Eye of Gods chart then what would make them a special/elite unit and why the hell would anybody take them? Weapon skill 6? So what if the average WS is 3 then a WS 5 (standard Warrior of Chaos) or WS 6 (for a Chosen) will make absolutely know difference. Basically you would just be paying an astronomical cost for unit about half the size of a standard WOC unit.

Something that I neglected to mention in my original post that I would like to see in a new book is the Eye of Gods chart revamped. A 7 roll gives you absolutely nothing and on a roll of 2d6 7 is about the average so in a way the chart is almost designed to screw you. Granted most players will take the Favor of the Gods on someone in the unit to help but still. Secondly, I think the whole "Eye of the Gods" rule where any chaos models that can challenge must and can't refuse a challenge if issued one has hurt chaos characters more than it has helped them at least in 8th edition. Most chaos generals I see are running a Sorcer Lord (level 4) and then an Level 2 Sorceror and Exalted hero. There is no way a sorcerror is going to stand up to another armies hero or lord in close combat. At my local shops I have seen some chaos generals running a sorceror lord, a level 2 sorceror and then use 2 Exalted heros along with a unit champion with one of the Exalted heros being ran naked so that they will have some "disposable" challengers to lose in a fight and not have to lose their other hero who is a BSB or has an item like Crown of Command which Chaos units needs since they are slow as crap and often get flanked side charged in addition to fighting a main unit. I have been pondering the idea of a naked exalted to my unit of chosen myself. Yes, that is a 110 points that will be lost to whatever lord/hero I end up challinging and losing too, but I don't lose my BSB, I don't lose crown of command, and those heroes can then put their attacks on the main unit and hopefully do enough wounds to make combat resolution swing in our favor and break the unit so we can run down the unit.

Also, I don't see why Marauders would go up in cost. Ogres went DOWN in chaos by a pretty substantive amount and not just the Ogre Bulls that went from 35 to 30 points (this is a unit that moves fast,I believe around 6 or 7, does impact hits, which due to their increased movement they should be getting a charge off on a number of opponents namely an army like Chaos where speed is a premium, then are tough in combat, and then do stomps just to add insult to injury) their leadbelchers also went down in cost. They roll on the random artillery dice PER MODEL to determine their shots and get no chance of misfire. Also, they got a cannon unit that can move and shoot now by the way. No, I don't think marauders need to go up in cost. Why? So, they can be more expensive, so we can get even less of them, so they can die even quicker to the massive amount of artillery and gunfire that's out there. Yes, marauders need to be more expensive about the same time the cost in artillery/shooting units for armies like Dwarves and Empire is increased by 20% so they can't just stand there and stack dangerous terrain in the middle of the battlefield and laugh at whatever army has to march across the battlefield (slowly in the case of chaos) while getting shot to hell and dwindled down before they even get to the units they need to fight.

Darkchilde
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DarkChilde
The Chosen
rothgar13
Sep 24 2011, 10:31 PM
There's little to no power creep in the new books - they are remarkably well balanced both internally (most choices are competitive with each other) and externally (O&G, TK, and OK are in the same ballpark), so you can put those pumped-up marks back in the closet unless you want them to trim Warrior stats.

I would reiterate my preference for Khorne armies to be able to bring a "Runelord" of sorts so that a no-casting Khorne army becomes at least viable (even if it's not cut-throat competitive).

Yet, for all the elite stats WoC have on paper as an army I would say that the New Ogres books puts them firmly in the WOC class in terms of infantry and close combat. Yes, WOC will strike first and usually have more ranks, but honestly so what? The impact to damage on an ogre unit is much less overall because of the combat number of wounds each ogre model has. Coupled that with the fact that each model gets multiple attacks, plus impact hits, plus stomp attacks, cause fear (not that great I know, but one round of missing a leadership roll and WOC aren't outstanding of leadership and having to make attacks at WS 1 can make a big difference in a combat turn and thus game overall),and get equal ranks for less models, which in turns helps them out in another subtle way. Most units of big blocks of warriors (of any army) are usually 5-1- models wide. Ogres are 3 wide. It may sound trifling but that smaller space on each side can make a big difference in an ogre death star not getting charged etc because of distance. Couple all this with the fact that they have some nice shooting attacks and kick butt cavalry (the mournfang) that I have witness eat chaos knights (which are a HIGHLY overpriced unit) and I fail to see how this is balanced at all. How do you say there is no powercreep?

Tomb Kings and O&G got a definite boosts in their books,and in general just the trend that I have noticed from GW is that the later the book is published the more powerful the army is. Skaven got a book that was released right on the cusp of 8th edition, and what army do you see winning tournaments on a regular basis? Skaven along with Dark Elves and from the data that I have seen WOC isn't doing too well in tournaments these days. Now, there are two conclusions to draw from this either the generals that play Skaven and Dark Elves are just fricking strategic geniuses masters of WH and every Chaos player has no clue how to play or WH or maybe....just maybe those particular armies have something in them (cheap hydras, etc) that make those armies somewhat more competitive and maybe Chaos isn't doing so hot not due to lack of player skill but because the army has some flaws and is lacking somethings compared to armies in the context of 8th edition and how the game has changed in 8th edition.

I think the idea of a "runelord" for Khorne is an interesting one. Dwarves have runepriest in Storm of Magic that don't count as magical so I do think this is something that is feasible to be added to the game.

Darkchilde
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rothgar13
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Clanlord
Ogres used to suck. Like, they legitimately could not beat people unless the guy playing the other army screwed up or rolled like @$$ suck. Now, they have things that can compete (not necessarily win, but compete) with Warriors, and you're playing the broken card? Call me back when you do some research. :rolleyes:

I've done the math-hammer. I've crunched the numbers. I've played the games. I know and have quantified that they're within the same ballpark power level. If anything, a well-played Warriors list still has an edge on all of these armies.

One of the main issues with Dark Elves and Skaven (which are 7th edition books, by the way) is that their guys are a bit too cheap for what they do. One of the main reasons Chaos hasn't been doing as well is that people have still been working out what are the ways to go for WoC from the list-building perspective - it's not immediately obvious that Chosen that don't do the Eye of the Gods trick aren't worth it, or that you have to really think about how you want to array your Warriors in order to maximize their effectiveness. Even then, they're still a very good army.
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