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| What do you want out of a new army book? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 12 2011, 01:35 PM (1,330 Views) | |
| DarkChilde | Sep 25 2011, 10:03 AM Post #31 |
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The Chosen
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I know Ogres used to suck. Although, actually if they took and maxed out the items on their Tyrant that one unit alone could change the tide of the game. They can't do that now, because items like rune maw got nerfed all to hell, but still an OK army under the new book is comparable to a WOC army in combat. WOC will hit more often, but ogres have more wounds and get more attack and have much better movement than WOC coupled with the fact that they have superior shooting and I don't see how this is balanced. I'm not talking about what happened in prior editions. I'm not talking about how they used to be I'm talking about NOW with their new book. Their damn monster that makes everybody strike last, their 7 attack per model mournfang cavalry, their move and fire cannon, their new leadbelchers, their cheaper troops, etc. I will not disagree with you about your assessment of Skaven and Dark Elves particulary skaven. I have honestly never witnessed a chaos army beat this army. I played against one and it looked like I was winning but when the points were added up at the end even though I had decimated more of his units his troops/units were so cheap compared to mine that he won. I know the Skaven book is a 7th edition book. What I sais in previous post was that a general trend is that the later the books are published the more powerful the army usually becomes and one of the reasons skaven are so powerful is that they have a 7th edition book that was published right on the cusp of 8th edition so they have like a 7.5 edition book. My intention is not to be rude (hope I'm not being construed as such) but I'm not buying this bit about armies being perfectly balanced. Granted it is going to hard to get opposing sides to be balanced in a game like WH as opposed to a competitive game like poker or checkers, but there is a power creep in the books. There is disparity between the armies. Skaven are an overpowered (for whatever reason army). Chaos is not doing well overall and needs an upgrade, moreso than say dwarves who yes have an old book, but are still winning games and placing decently in tournaments against more updated armies because gunlines and artillery and other things they have are too cheap for what they do. As I stated in another post GW needs to update armies not by oldest codex which is generally the trend, but by how competitive the army actually is. Right now Chaos is taking a beating in the wholistic picture. Darkchilde. |
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| Krakanrock | Sep 25 2011, 10:36 AM Post #32 |
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Exalted Guardian
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Ungor are a far cry from marauders and they cost 1 point more. Regular orc boyz went up by a point and they are no where near as good as marauders and what the cookie cutter unit of marauders can do. I have seen so many people say that marauders are so broken blah blah blah blah blah...I'm just saying, don't be surprised if they go up in points by 1 or 2. Sadly, I'm actually expecting it. I have yet to play with or against any of the new books but O&G so I can't really say much about "power creep" for the new books. I will say this though - the later the book does not necessarily mean that its power will be higher. If that is the case then Beastmen got totally SCREWED!!!!!! They came out after Skaven and are no where near in power class to what skaven are. |
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| rothgar13 | Sep 25 2011, 11:16 AM Post #33 |
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Clanlord
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Chaos hasn't been taking the beating that you seem to imply - they've been placing highly in tournaments, though they haven't been winning as many. While the armies are not perfectly balanced (that's more of a goal than it is a possibility), the newer books are at least within the same ballpark - it's a pretty even fight when you look at the last few books released (Beastmen, O&G, Tomb Kings, Ogres). If you set up the proper matchups for yourself, you should do pretty well against Ogres - just remember to bring some armor penetration to open their heavy cavalry tin can and lots of Marauders to keep the Ogres entertained. Again, I refer you to the fact that I don't think a "power" build has been clearly identified for Warriors. Some people suit up with a Horde of Trolls led by Throgg. Others prefer a MSU approach. Still others put all the eggs in the Chosenstar basket and push it forward. It's not immediately apparent which of these is more successful. And as a primary Beastmen player, you underestimate us at your peril, Krakanrock - we're no Skaven, but we're a solid mid-tier army that actually matches up well against plenty of people, provided you play them right (yet another army where the "power build" has been identified). We did suck in 7th, though, I'll give you that one. |
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| cross | Sep 25 2011, 05:56 PM Post #34 |
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The Chosen
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the idea of a khorne styled rune lord is awesome. what about a new unit that consists of junior style sorcerers. call them chaos minions or chaos adepts. they arnt up to scratch with a full blown sorcerer but have magic based shooting attacks. no armour or shields. they havnt mastered that ability. roll a d3 1 is no hits. 2 is 1 hit a 3 is 2 hits. range 24 inches, strength 4, flming/magic hits. they might come with a 6+ ward. and cost about 25 points each. would be awesome to have a shooting option other than the hellcannon. just an idea. would definitely add a new dimension to our army, a bit more rounded. i understand the idea or chaos being able to shoot may offend some. so i apologize in advance. but demons have flamers and every one else has some kind of shooting. cross |
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| rothgar13 | Sep 25 2011, 11:08 PM Post #35 |
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Clanlord
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That reminds me - cultists of Chaos would be a neat unit to have as well. |
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| Krakanrock | Sep 26 2011, 04:53 AM Post #36 |
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Exalted Guardian
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I play Beastmen as well, Rothgar. I was just making reference to DarkChild's comment that the later the book is published, the more power creep a new book sees. I agree, Beasts are going to ruin your day if you underestimate them. But they don't have the "win button" that some of the books that came out right before them did. Which, I'm actually happy for. Makes me feel good when I can kick some DE or DoC back side w/ the Beasts. :rock: |
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| DarkChilde | Sep 26 2011, 08:41 AM Post #37 |
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The Chosen
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Not winning but placing highly sounds like code for losing to me. Placing highly doesn't count for anything, bringing home the win counts. Also, how are you supposed to set the proper match-ups for yourself in tournaments? I will admit that I am fairly new to the game, and I may not have the tournament experience that other people on these boards have had, but I have studied tournaments and played in a few, and I haven't had a tournament yet where I was able to hand select what army I was up against, because if so I would Never send my army against Skaven, ever. Hell, even in "friendly"games I don't understand when people complain about the Infernal puppet and Blasted Standard and few other items that are absolutely mandatory, in my opinion, for a Chaos army to stay compettive but then don't have a problem with spells like the Dreaded 13th being used, dwarven gunlines that are runed out and can pretty much ignore misfires, Teclis, cheap hydras, etc. Likewise, with all due respect I'm not sure I buy your whole spiel about Chaos suffering because a power build hasn't been worked out. Yes, other armies that are winning may have a common theme, but even within that then there are variations, ie., most competitive dark elf armies may include 2 war hydras, but then after that they branch out and vary. Some dwarven gunlines might an organ gun (the only piece of artillery I know of that doesn't have to roll to hit), but then after that they branch out some might be more canon heavy others (and the most devastating I have encountered)focus on grudge throwers (see how long a marauder block last against those), etc. So, the fact that chaos armies that are being competitive may have some variation i.e, chosenstar, a Throgg/troll combo (note is possible to have both of these in the same army) and still not winning, but "placing highly" says to me there is a problem. Darkchilde |
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| rothgar13 | Sep 26 2011, 11:08 AM Post #38 |
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Clanlord
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I'd really have to study tournament results, but I'm really doubting that WoC is really suffering all that much. As far as matchups is concerned, I'm talking mainly about deployment - you want to pit guys in fights where you fancy their chances. |
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| rothgar13 | Sep 26 2011, 01:22 PM Post #39 |
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Clanlord
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Totally with you on that one. :rock: |
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| DarkSchneider | Sep 26 2011, 08:13 PM Post #40 |
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Clanlord
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First of all, i would kick out the EotG, the most stupid rule ever seen in warhammer, except maybe the intrigue at court. Or change it to "non-sorcerors character can never REFUSE a challenge. if they kill enemy they get one of this bonuses: d6 roll, bonus olny chart". Maybe i would add the "always reroll hits in challenge" rule. Then, an overall point adjustment. Characters NEED to be less expensive. Warriors 14 points base Chosen should cost less, something like 16 points base, get a free roll on the chart at game start, all models are champions (like grail knights), bonus from challenges aplly to whole unit. Forsaken skirmisher/scout, cost 16-17 points. D.Ogres need a HUGE drop in points. Maybe unit 1+ Giant just needs the Headbutt attack instead of Bite. Knights at 35 points. Shaggot at T6, 250 points with weapon. Spawn at 3d6 movement, regeneration, 70/75 points each. Helcannon needs a reroll of artillery/scatter. Marks are an hard issue, I would say Khorne:+1 attack Slaanesh: ASF Nurgle: poison Tzeench: reroll 1's (maybe too much) Finally, a GOOD gifts list, to replace the loss of magic items. |
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| CyderPyrate | Sep 26 2011, 08:29 PM Post #41 |
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The Chosen
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There are always going to be balance issues for a game as large and complicated as Warhammer. The new books and new rulebook do look to be reasonably well balanced against each other, however. There's a tendency for people to look at a new army and go "OMG! Its sooo broken!" wa wa wa etc., because they haven't developed a strategy to tackle the new challenges. For example: I played Tomb Kings to death with the old rulebook, but when the new one came out, it played so differently I couldn't get the hang of playing with OR against them. If people are complainging about chosen dstar, but not Teclis and 13th that's just your group. I'm lucky to play in a group that's self policing. Anything too cheesey and no-one wants to play them. The occasional smash-fest happens but the Daemon players do at least feel guilty when they tear people apart and there are nooo Dark Elf players. :D Doing well but not winning does not mean the same as losing. If an army is a rare sight on the podium - Wood Elves, Brets - those armies are losing. If we get hundreds of silvers, but rareyl get golds that's not the same as losing all the time. Don't knock 'placing highly'. Variation happens in all the armies, maybe more so for us because we've got a lot of stuff that is pretty good. Its only by playing it death that you can differentiate between the pretty good and the really good lists. And lets face it, noone places competitively all the time, and noone would want to. We've also got stupidly expensive Core choices that less us play around a lot with special/rare/chars, without losing operational effectiveness. Most armies that sink 750 points into Core for 2000pt game are going to be less effective that one that keeps it to the 500 and spends the other 250 on units with real bite. I'm sure I had a point to begin with, but I've lost it. End of the day, current WoC book = pretty sweet. Placing Highly = Not losing, Not winning, but doing better than most. |
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| ilnar3 | Sep 27 2011, 01:18 AM Post #42 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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Besides, there can be only one winner, And there are what 11 codex? :P |
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| rothgar13 | Sep 27 2011, 05:16 AM Post #43 |
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Clanlord
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Let's see... Beastmen Bretonnia Daemons of Chaos Dark Elves Dwarfs Empire High Elves Lizardmen Ogre Kingdoms Orcs & Goblins Skaven Tomb Kings Vampire Counts Warriors of Chaos Wood Elves That's 15, by my count. |
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| ilnar3 | Sep 27 2011, 06:19 AM Post #44 |
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Warrior of the Chamber
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Seee? So in fairness, as long as you make the top 15 and there are no repatitions, it's all good! |
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| theorox | Sep 28 2011, 03:37 PM Post #45 |
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Clanlord
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I'd want Marks to be a bigger deal. MoKhorne: Frenzy (Pretty good right now!) MoNurgle: Poisoned attacks, immune to poison. (That'd be swell...) MoSlaanesh: (ASF. Seriously, awesome!) MoTzeentch: Same as now, I guess. (It's good already.) Make Forsaken better! (Well, cheaper at any rate...and maybe let them keep Chaos Armour.) Drop Hellcannons. And make a CD armybook, why don't you. :P Throwing axes for Marauders for 1pt each, maybe. Marauder chariots! 70-ish points and units of 1-3. Some kind of Werebeasts...mutants, y'know. Like what Marauders are in Warhammer Online. Letting us keep 8-10 good items! Getting rid of Gifts as they are now, and replace them and Eye of the Gods with Five different tables, that anyone with "Eye of the gods" roll on, depending on their Mark something like this: Eye of Chaos D6: 1): Spawnhood: Becomes a Chaos Spawn. All Magical items are lost. 2): The Eye is Closed: Nothing. 3): Tentacle, +1 Attack. 4): Slaughterer's Strength: +1 Str. 5): Stonebones: +1 T. 6): Second Sight: +1 to Hit Eye of Khorne D6: 1): Spawnhood: Becomes a Chaos Spawn. All Magical items are lost. 2): The Eye is Closed: Nothing. 3): Spell Shielding: MR2 4): Burning Hate: Hatred. 5): Skullbringer: Killing Blow. 6): Bloodseeker: Re-roll failed wounds in combat. I'll do the other 3 later. How does the idea sound to you? :) Theo |
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10:46 PM Jul 11