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Monstrous Cavalry 2012
Topic Started: Dec 21 2012, 07:03 AM (682 Views)
IainL
The Chosen
Very interesting test ran by Bad Dice Dailey, comparisons between all the new MC's that are now so prevalent. No surprise Skullcrushers were top contenders. What did surprise me is that in EVERY SINGLE SITUATION, we best the opponent out.

http://baddice.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/THE-GREAT-MONSTROUS-CAVALRY-TEST-OF-2012.pdf
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Deleted User
Deleted User

Very interesting.
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0racle
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The Chosen
great find thanks for sharing
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son of bretonnia
The Chosen
Did you notice that they test everything with 4 juggers having 8 attacks.... so no extra attack for frenzy?
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rothgar13
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Clanlord
Because Frenzy specifically says it does not affect the mount. The only reason it works with the Banner of Rage is because it was FAQ'd to say so.

Either way, this is a very valuable resource, and it really showcases the might of Skullcrushers. Even though they only have 2 Wounds, WS5 and T5 really make a difference.
Edited by rothgar13, Dec 26 2012, 10:33 PM.
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R3do
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The Warptongue
This thing has been depated for ages as we all know mark is given to model so tecnically mount is included in the model as it cant be attacked.
Edited by R3do, Dec 26 2012, 10:32 PM.
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rothgar13
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Clanlord
Exactly, R3do. If it were a Khorne-marked Manticore, then I would say you get the +1A.
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R3do
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The Warptongue
Nope because manticore is it own model as it can be targeted.
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jerm20201
Soul Stealer
I noticed in all the non-monstrous cav tests, the Warriors with 21 models, still highest points value vs the 50 skaven slaves and 40 swordsmen lost all their matchups vs the Monstrous cav, while the other units held, lost, but held.

This brings up the argument (warseer that is) of Warriors needing to be nerfed. I think this proves we don't need a nerf, but maybe a better points cost.

The warriors were constantly cut in half numbers wise. Although the majority of the time they only had an 8% chance to break. But still, the others were usually steadfast for ever. Yet most non-WoC players think they need to go down in stats cause they're too OP...
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DarkSchneider
Clanlord
while i do agree that warriors need a buff/point decrease, it should be noted that in those tests the warriors had a non-optimal build: shields without MoT. I really don't see why they were included, it should have been better MoK+halberd, or not to use them at all.
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rothgar13
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Clanlord
I'd actually wager that a 6-wide MoK + Halberd fights a couple of those monstrous cav units off. Let's try our hand at it, shall we?

18 Chaos Warriors, Halberds, Musician, Standard-Bearer, Mark of Khorne (6x3, 336)

vs. Mournfang 1 - 4 Mournfang Cavalry, Heavy Armor, Ironfists, Musician, Standard-Bearer (4 x 1, 300)

Mournfang charge (higher M, Swiftstride). 4D3 Impact Hits, wounding on 3+, allowing 6+ armor.

Math: (8)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 4.44 Wounds

Chaos Warriors strike first. 24 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 3+, allowing 4+ armor, 6+ parry.

Math: (24)*(2/3)*(2/3)*(1/2)*(5/6) = 4.44 Wounds

Ogres strike tied for second. 9 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 4+, allowing 5+ armor.

Math: (9)*(1/2)*(1/2)*(2/3) = 1.50 Wounds

Mournfangs strike tied for second. 12 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 3+, allowing 6+ armor.

Math: (12)*(1/2)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 3.33 Wounds

Stomps strike third. 3 autohits, wounding on 3+, allowing 6+ armor.

Math: (3)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 1.67 Wounds

Ogre Wounds: 4.44 + 1.50 + 3.33 + 1.67 = 10.94 ~ 11 Wounds (7 Chaos Warriors remain)

WoC Wounds: 4.44 ~ 4 Wounds (3 Mournfang Cavalry remain, one has 2 Wounds left)

Ogre CR: +11 (Wounds) +1 (banner) +1 (charge) = +13
WoC CR: +4 (Wounds) +1 (banner) = +5

Ogres win by 8, Warriors are not steadfast. Warriors lose Frenzy.

vs. Mournfang 2 - 4 Mournfang Cavalry, Dragonhide Banner, Heavy Armor, Ironfists, Musician, Standard-Bearer (4 x 1, 350)

Mournfang charge (higher M, Swiftstride). 4D3 Impact Hits, wounding on 3+ (re-roll 1's), allowing 6+ armor.

Math: (8)*(7/9)*(5/6) = 5.18 Wounds

Chaos Warriors strike first. 24 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 3+, allowing 4+ armor (re-roll 1's), 6+ parry.

Math: (24)*(2/3)*(2/3)*(5/12)*(5/6) = 3.70 Wounds

Ogres strike tied for second. 9 attacks, hitting on 4+ (re-roll 1's), wounding on 4+ (re-roll 1's), allowing 5+ armor.

Math: (9)*(7/12)*(7/12)*(2/3) = 2.04 Wounds

Mournfangs strike tied for second. 12 attacks, hitting on 4+ (re-roll 1's), wounding on 3+ (re-roll 1's), allowing 6+ armor.

Math: (12)*(7/12)*(7/9)*(5/6) = 4.54 Wounds

Stomps strike third. 3 autohits, wounding on 3+ (re-roll 1's), allowing 6+ armor.

Math: (3)*(7/9)*(5/6) = 1.94 Wounds

Ogre Wounds: 5.18 + 2.04 + 4.54 + 1.94 = 13.70 ~ 14 Wounds (4 Chaos Warriors remain)

WoC Wounds: 3.70 ~ 4 Wounds (3 Mournfang Cavalry remain, one has 2 Wounds left)

Ogre CR: +14 (Wounds) +1 (banner) +1 (charge) = +16
WoC CR: +4 (Wounds) +1 (banner) = +5

Ogres win by 11, Warriors are not steadfast. Warriors lose Frenzy.

vs. Necropolis Knights - 4 Necropolis Knights, Musician, Standard-Bearer (280)

Necropolis Knights charge (higher M, Swiftstride).

Chaos Warriors strike first. 24 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 3+, allowing 5+ armor.

Math: (24)*(2/3)*(2/3)*(2/3) = 7.11 Wounds

Necropolis Knights strike tied for second. 4 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 3+ (6's auto-kill), allowing 6+ armor.

Math: (4)*(1/2)*([1/2]*[5/6] + [1/6]) = 1.17 Wounds

Necroserpents strike tied for second. 6 attacks, hitting on 4+ (6's auto-wound), wounding on 3+, allowing 6+ armor.

Math: (6)*([1/3]*[1/3]*[5/6] + [1/6]*[5/6]) = 1.39 Wounds

Stomps strike third. 2 autohits, wounding on 3+, allowing 6+ armor.

Math: (2)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 1.11 Wounds

TK Wounds: 1.17 + 1.39 + 1.11 = 3.67 ~ 4 Wounds (14 Chaos Warriors remain)

WoC Wounds: 7.11 ~ 7 Wounds (2 Necropolis Knights remain, one has 2 Wounds left)

TK CR: +4 (Wounds) +1 (charge) +1 (banner) = +6
WoC CR: +7 (Wounds) +1 (ranks) +1 (banner) = +9

WoC win by 4, TK crumble by 3 (1 Necropolis Knight remains, has 2 Wounds left).

vs. Demigryph Knights - 4 Demigryph Knights, Musician, Standard-Bearer (252)

Demigryph Knights charge (higher M, Swiftstride).

Chaos Warriors strike first. 24 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 3+, allowing 3+ armor.

Math: 24*2/3*2/3*1/3 = 3.56 Wounds

Demigryphs strike second. 9 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 3+, allowing no saves.

Math: 9*1/2*2/3 = 3.00 Wounds

Knights strike third. 3 attacks hitting on 4+, wounding on 2+, allowing no saves.

Math: 3*1/2*5/6 = 1.25 Wounds

Stomps strike fourth. 3 autohits, wounding on 3+, allowing no saves.

Math: 3*2/3 = 2.00 Wounds

Empire Wounds: 3.00 + 1.25 + 2.00 = 6.25 ~ 6 Wounds (12 Chaos Warriors remaining)
WoC Wounds: 3.56 ~ 4 Wounds (3 Demigryph Knights remaining, one has 2 Wounds left)

Empire CR: +6 (Wounds) +1 (charge) +1 (banner) = +8
WoC CR: +4 (Wounds) +1 (ranks) +1 (banner) = +6

Empire wins by 2, Warriors are Steadfast. Warriors lose Frenzy.

vs. Bloodcrushers - 4 Bloodcrushers, Musician, Standard-Bearer (310)

Bloodcrushers charge (higher M, Swiftstride).

Chaos Warriors strike first. 24 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 3+, allowing 6+ armor, 5+ Ward.

Math: (24)*(1/2)*(2/3)*(5/6)*(2/3) = 4.44 Wounds

Bloodcrushers strike second. 6 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 2+, allowing no saves.

Math: (6)*(1/2)*(5/6) = 2.50 Wounds

Juggernauts strike third. 6 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 3+, allowing 6+ armor.

Math: (6)*(1/2)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 1.67 Wounds

Stomps strike fourth. 3 autohits, wounding on 3+, allowing 6+ armor.

Math: (3)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 1.67 wounds

DoC Wounds: 2.50 + 1.67 + 1.67 = 5.83 ~ 6 Wounds (12 Chaos Warriors remain)
WoC Wounds: 4.44 ~ 4 Wounds (3 Skullcrushers remain, one has 2 Wounds left)

DoC CR: +6 (Wounds) +1 (banner) +1 (charge) = +8
WoC CR: +4 (Wounds) +1 (banner) +1 (ranks) = +6

DoC win by 2, Warriors are Steadfast. Warriors lose Frenzy.

vs. Skullcrushers - 4 Skullcrushers, Musician, Standard-Bearer (270)

Skullcrushers charge (higher M, Swiftstride).

Skullcrushers strike tied for first. 12 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 3+, allowing 6+ armor.

Math: (12)*(1/2)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 3.33 Wounds

Chaos Warriors strike tied for first. 24 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 4+, allowing 3+ armor.

Math: (24)*(1/2)*(1/2)*(1/3) = 2.00 Wounds

Juggernauts strike second. 6 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 3+, wounding on 3+, allowing 6+ armor.

Math: (6)*(1/2)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 1.67 wounds

Stomps strike third. 3 autohits, wounding on 3+, allowing 6+ armor.

Math: (3)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 1.67 Wounds

Skullcrusher Wounds: 3.33 + 1.67 + 1.67 = 6.67 ~ 7 Wounds (11 Chaos Warriors remain)
Warrior Wounds: 2.00 ~ 2 Wounds (3 Skullcrushers remain)

Skullcrusher CR: +7 (Wounds) +1 (charge) +1 (banner) = +9
Warrior CR: +2 (Wounds) +1 (ranks) +1 (banner) = +4

Skullcrushers win by 5, Warriors are steadfast. Warriors lose Frenzy.

vs. Bull Centaurs - 4 Bull Centaur Renders, Musician, Shields, Spears, Standard-Bearer (215)

Bull Centaurs charge (higher M, Swiftstride).

Warriors strike first. 24 attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, allowing 4+ armor.

Math: (24)*(2/3)*(1/2)*(1/2) = 4.00 Wounds

Bull Centaurs strike second. 6 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 3+, allowing 6+ armor.

Math: (6)*(1/2)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 1.67 Wounds

Stomps strike third. 3 autohits, wounding on 4+, allowing 5+ armor.

Math: (3)*(1/2)*(2/3) = 1.00 Wounds

CD Wounds: 1.67 + 1.00 = 2.67 ~ 3 Wounds (15 Chaos Warriors remain)
WoC Wounds: 4.00 ~ 4 Wounds (3 Bull Centaurs remain, one has 2 Wounds left)

CD CR: +3 (Wounds) +1 (banner) +1 (charge) = +5
WoC CR: +4 (Wounds) +1 (ranks) +1 (banner) = +6

WoC wins by 1, Bull Centaurs are not Steadfast.

Not a whole lot better, but definitely an improvement over MoT + Shield, even despite the lesser numbers.
Edited by rothgar13, Dec 28 2012, 02:27 AM.
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DarkSchneider
Clanlord
If you go banner of rage instead of MoK, the fights with demigriffs and bloodcrushers should turn into a win for warriors starting from turn 2 (and we are steadfast on turn 1).
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skavenslayer
Slave
[ * ]
No wonder skullcrushers beat everything in that test - Ben uses a 0+ Armour save for them!

E.G. page 4 - they save 3.33 of the 4.00 wounds from the S5 Mournfang impact hits and again for their S5 attacks. x(
He does it everywhere: for the demis S5 AP attacks they save 2.00 out of 3.00 instead of 1.5, and so on.
In other words, ignore that table completely. Pity, because it is nicely done.

Don't get me wrong, Skullcrushers are awesome and I strongly advise using them, but they CANNOT take a Dragonhide Mournfang charge to the face!


Rothgars calculations above are better, though I firmly disagree with his "no frenzy for juggers" position.
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Harbinger
The Chosen
wait, just read Rothgar13's post about Banner of Rage, it affects mounts now???
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R3do
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The Warptongue
Harbinger
Jan 8 2013, 01:40 AM
wait, just read Rothgar13's post about Banner of Rage, it affects mounts now???
Yes new FAQ says this :)
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